Don't suck and stand outside the circle? I would have left too, thats terrible game play and wasting anymore time with people like that is not fun.
Don't suck and stand outside the circle? I would have left too, thats terrible game play and wasting anymore time with people like that is not fun.
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
How do you know if you was correct in bailing on said group?
You get instantly harassed in whispers.
No, i meant that if i have CE my attitude can be everything except defeatist since i eat a fair amount of wipes to earn those CE, and when you have a fixed m+ group your tolerance for pugs goes down drastically and you end up not pugging at all, and there are diff level of mistakes, some of them are stupid enough to make people leave runs, others are understandable.
if there was a possibility to put some kind of penalization for leavers, I'm pretty sure Blizz would put it in. There is one already for BGs, even freaking Islands have it that are abused for the fun.
I have been kicked by 2 guildies in HC Islands like less than 1000 points before finish just for the laughs, or just one person not liking what class you joined in with, or lacking aoe dps so they can finish it in under 5 mins. Than I would ask the other guy why did they kick me, and he would just say, idk, the other one put the voting and I just clicked kick. The system can be abused.
as for M+, like some already said, if the group is really bad and you see its gonna be an hour+ run....why wouldn't you leave without penalty cuz of really bad players. Sure there is bunch of toxic people that just leave on the first mistake or bad pull......but how to make a difference when its right to be penalized or when its not. Not every leaving from M+ is for toxic reasons.
only solution IMO, is some kind of statistic check if person is leaving groups often or not. And bad reputation would make the group maker think twice whom to take into group. If there is no proper way by Blizz to handle that, then community would penalize the player by not inviting if it has too big % of leaving in ie. last 50 or 100 runs, or whole season but it has to have some min runs number as a base point.
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
Yea they should be penalized.
However
There is no viable solution without an absolute overhaul of the entire system.
Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)
Leaving for no good reason should be punished.
Leaving because the group fail on basic mechanics is okay.
Put: "No leavers" in the group description usually helps.
Also, it's good karma to inform the group before the run that you are going to leave if they don't interrupt etc.
I often leave groups if it's clear that the players don't know what they are doing. It's very difficult for Blizzard to estimate what is fair and what is not fair. I would personally stop playing M+ if it wasn't allowed to leave groups.
I think I could actually relate to your statement at several points throughout past 2.5 years of pugging high M+ keys, but only when it comes to actually pugging progression keys (whatever is a "high" key level for you). And I heard other people communicate it in a similar way. Pugging progressions keys means putting yourself out there in a vulnerable position: joining up with 4 people on voice and being active in communicating a lot of things on the go. There is an inherent anxiety of being judged. The more invested you are - the more likely you will be anxious. But this anxiety can be shut down completely. I could spend weeks and months at a time pushing in pugs with no second thoughts.
But any prolonged period of pushing with a fixed group creates a safe space, an isolated cozy environment where less on-point communication is required (have time for more banter instead), and more mistakes are tolerated (you can more easily compensate for each other). From that point, transitioning back to pugging becomes psychologically harder (but is often very beneficial to staying sharp).
I have yet see a solution that allows for the "punishment" of leavers/quitters without leading to a case where someone/the group holds other players hostage.
Take the example of well the first person that "leaves" should be punished for "quitting". This solution is so asinine because a troll could just as easily do negative behaviors that screw with the group:
- As a tank, purposely tank too much or not grabbing threat when someone "pulls an extra pack".
- As a healer, purposely not heal certain players
- As a DPS, purposely pulling extra packs with or without a threat redirecting ability.
- As a player, going pseudo-afk by typing in chat but not really moving or doing anything (aka getting on their soapbox).
You get the idea, non-participation or negative participation can screw over a group just as much as leaving. How would you "punish" those players?
Oh so now you're probably thinking about a voting system? And how "good" has those voting systems been? Just take a look at LFR vote kicking or even the silence reporting system (which is basically an automated does a player get X many reports before auto-silencing).
No the real issue with PuG M+ is that without social accountability then you need to communicate more. Expectations need to be set and players need to understand the level of commitment before starting the M+.
As stated by myself elsewhere, PuGs M+ (especially progression M+) need to make sure that all players are on the same page. We're pushing this key using a specific strategy/route. At X point, we're going to do a death run or an invis/shroud run, etc. Don't assume that the rogue in group finder with 455 ilv and r.io score of 1500+ is going to do your strategy/route. Communicate to make sure and recheck just to make sure.
Also be honest in your listing. When I see "Pushing" then I'm expecting little to zero player errors, everyone flasked up, eaten proper food, using augment rune, knowing the specific route in MDT and strategies to be used at nearly every trash pull. Also everyone is as optimally geared/enchanted/gemmed etc.
The biggest problem in PuG M+ is when a run is listed as "Push" but you really meant "Carry me (or carry my buddy)". Mismatch of objectives and expectations cause more problems than its worth.
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The answer to this question should always be no.
A players should never be punished for leaving if:
->The other players in the group are playing poorly;
->The other players in the group are trolling;
->The other players in the group are jerks;
->If something occurs in real life that the player must see to (regardless of what it is).
You, I, and everyone else can list more reasons why a leave is justified, and there is no algorithm that can determine if a leave is justified or not—which is why there is no punishment for leaving.
The question, however, that should be posed is: what can Blizzard do to minimize the effects of leaving. One solution could be if one member of the group leaves (not kicked, leaves), then the timer is paused until a new member zones in, then the timer resumes. Providing the game can tell the difference between a kick and a leave, it should be relatively free of abuse.
Any option to replace players will be abused by top groups to time +26, +27, +28 keys with optimal group compositions for different parts of a dungeon. But I think it's fine... I'd rather have Blizzard improve the game experience for the tens of thousands doing weekly keys, than cater to the 100-200 top players in the world. (Not that they cater to the hardcore scene now... Blizzard make it pretty clear that they don't care, by having not fixed known and reported M+ bugs since the start of the expansion).
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I personally stay away from all groups that have "push" in their title. These groups attract an excessive amount of emotions and drama, the moment anything goes wrong...
No. Some groups are just so bad you have to leave. I shouldn't be penalized for the group leader bringing 2 carries that suck balls.
Idk how you'd track it. I think people have a right to leave if it's a total wipefest and not getting anywhere.
This is like saying, 'should new hires at a company have their paycheck forfeited'
Nah. You know the risk/reward going in. You accept the good outcome, but not accept the bad? I think you need to rethink how this works.
What's next, penalize those in heriocs who leave after X boss because they only needed that one loot item? NAH. We know that's a risk. We take it.
"but you can't add people once the M+ is set" CRY ME A RIVER. there are too many keys out there to complain about this aspect. If that's the problem you mainly have, then address that aspect of it. But honestly, if it doesn't pan out the way you hoped, you shouldn't be given mercy.
Last edited by scelero; 2020-01-07 at 07:14 PM.