Should bailing on a M+ group be penalized?

[Xath]

Yes. When you leave an active key, you lose 500g, which means you need at least 500g on hand to join a key. You need to actually leave, being kicked would not penalize you. In order to avoid the useless players that would throw a tantrum demanding to be kicked, there could be a simple activity tracker that would render them ineligible for loot at the end. Nothing too fancy, just something that tracks how many times the group entered combat and if the healer healed most players, the tank was on most mob's threat tables, and dps hit most things during those times.

Lol no just no this is beyond dumb and would instantly kill the pug scene.

[Jester Joe]

Out of all the things that annoys me in M+, being manually kicked out of the group is very, very far down my list. Like literally only happens to me before the group even starts (e.g. leader decides to bring a friend in instead of me, wants a different comp).

Oh yeah, before the run I've had happen a few times, but mostly it's because like you said, either they say "hey we're bringing in a guildie/friend instead", or I imagine because the overgeared lock (me) looked nice to bring until they see a rogue in queue.

In that case it's extremely trivial. But the other poster's complaint seemed to be geared towards people abusing vote kicks during runs, which currently you could just be kicked with no vote at all during a run if the leader wanted to.

[Zarvel]

That's a rather large wall of text for the purpose of flimsy digs and ambiguous reasoning.

In the situation you describe it's very easy to just form a 4 man group with a key you don't give a shit about, invite him, start the dungeon and vote kick and lock him out for an hour. Likewise, even if they were serious about the group but they recognise they aren't good enough to complete they can proceed to vote kick a guy either for not matching their expectations or even just "for the lulz".

All the system does is rotate who gets inconvenienced and in what way, it's not the magic all solution you portray it to be.

The bold bit - Once again, what you say there is one of many possibilities yes, but not a realistic one. How often do you see people join LFR or BGs as groups just to vote kick people and then leave? Because that's the scenario you're suggesting. Not only are you suggesting it, but you're suggesting it's going to be a widespread and common enough thing to become a real tangible problem.

The "wall of text" as you put it ( even though it's just like 5 sentences, but whatevs ) literally just spells out why what you're suggesting, while not false, is also not true or will not be true for the most part.
Heck, even if in some magical world all it ends up being is the opposite of what it's now and as you claim it would be, where 1 random for every 5 that run a key gets inconvenienced, I'd take that over 1 moron screwing over the other 4 in a group, any day. Wouldn't you? It's just logic.

I do not see why you're fighting against logic and common sense. I'm not preaching anything, I'm just laying it out for you so you see the picture more clearly. Whether you choose to or not is entirely upto you of course, but don't make it out to be "flimsy digs and ambiguous reasoning" just because you do not wish to see the picture. Others may.

[ID811717]

I have a genuine question for you. Do you ever look at things practically? Or do you just look at things from an ideal standpoint?

Tell me why, and you've really gotta convince me on this one, why would you join a group, do it halfway, then decide all of a sudden that you want to "troll" someone in your group so you initiate a vote to kick. Then, 2 other people in this group of yours also suddenly feel the urge to "troll" this random poor dude rather than get on with things and complete the dungeon. Yeah? That's the assumption you're going on yeah? Spend some time, dwell on it, and then tell me if you still feel "trolling" in a key is practical for anybody from any standpoint.

Wait... Isn't this just basic group dynamics? It's very common, except it is not exactly "trolling" on purpose.

It's a typical story of a premade 4-man group (guildies or just friends) who need to pug a random player for last spot (same goes for 3-mans that pug 2 spots). The 4 players are used to play together (so they are on the same page about tactics and skips), and they are also sitting on discord voice for banter. But they don't invite the pug player to join them, and they don't bother explaining things in chat. Every time the pug player fails at some little thing (that was often not communicated clearly), someone on voice comms facepalms. Dissing the pug player behind the player's back becomes the group bonding exercise. It's fun. It's a nice scapegoat. You work yourself up in your little closed circle of friends, and learn to hate the pug player. (Sometimes the pug player actually is horrible.) If things are indeed going bad, then by the middle of the run someone might suggest to kick the pug player and do the key at one key lower. By the end of the run, someone might suggest to kick the pug player from the group when last boss is at 50%, just for the lulz ("I hate him!").

It's actually enough that there's one player in premade who gets easily tilted and needs to rant about pugs, and then 2-3 friends who will just passively nod and try to redirect it into a lighthearted humor.

It's group psychology 101. It happens even when none of the problems were exactly the pug player's fault.

[Kanegasi]

Lol no just no this is beyond dumb and would instantly kill the pug scene.

No it won't.

[callipygoustp]

I've been running some low level keys recently just to get some follower gear and to make some bags. I gotta say I am amazed at the increased level of toxicity in these low level groups. These mediocre players get all fucking bent out of shape over nothing. Seriously, the difference in mentality between a +10 or higher group is significantly different in my experience. I'm starting to wonder if these "anti m+" are all a result of the general toxicity of lower level pug groups. In +10s you'll hear bitching if someone is really fucking up. Otherwise, its all about doing what we are there to do: beat a timer. In lower level keys its seems to be open season on bitching about any minor detail that someone observes. Fuck, people take those lower level keys WAAAAAY too seriously. I really gotta get my alts higher level raider.io scores just to avoid it.

[ID811717]

I've been running some low level keys recently just to get some follower gear and to make some bags. I gotta say I am amazed at the increased level of toxicity in these low level groups. These mediocre players get all fucking bent out of shape over nothing. Seriously, the difference in mentality between a +10 or higher group is significantly different in my experience. I'm starting to wonder if these "anti m+" are all a result of the general toxicity of lower level pug groups. In +10s you'll hear bitching if someone is really fucking up. Otherwise, its all about doing what we are there to do: beat a timer. In lower level keys its seems to be open season on bitching about any minor detail that someone observes. Fuck, people take those lower level keys WAAAAAY too seriously. I really gotta get my alts higher level raider.io scores just to avoid it.

True. The more control people have over the situation they are in - the more calm and polite they are. This still keeps on improving in keys well above +10.

[Great Destiny Man]

The bold bit - Once again, what you say there is one of many possibilities yes, but not a realistic one. How often do you see people join LFR or BGs as groups just to vote kick people and then leave? Because that's the scenario you're suggesting. Not only are you suggesting it, but you're suggesting it's going to be a widespread and common enough thing to become a real tangible problem.

The "wall of text" as you put it ( even though it's just like 5 sentences, but whatevs ) literally just spells out why what you're suggesting, while not false, is also not true or will not be true for the most part.
Heck, even if in some magical world all it ends up being is the opposite of what it's now and as you claim it would be, where 1 random for every 5 that run a key gets inconvenienced, I'd take that over 1 moron screwing over the other 4 in a group, any day. Wouldn't you? It's just logic.

I do not see why you're fighting against logic and common sense. I'm not preaching anything, I'm just laying it out for you so you see the picture more clearly. Whether you choose to or not is entirely upto you of course, but don't make it out to be "flimsy digs and ambiguous reasoning" just because you do not wish to see the picture. Others may.

"You dont see my unique point of view so you're one of the unenlightened ones". I've outlined my objections, if you want to mask your opinions as some kind of objective fact you're welcome to live in your delusions but I'll stick to reality thanks.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait... Isn't this just basic group dynamics? It's very common, except it is not exactly "trolling" on purpose.

It's a typical story of a premade 4-man group (guildies or just friends) who need to pug a random player for last spot (same goes for 3-mans that pug 2 spots). The 4 players are used to play together (so they are on the same page about tactics and skips), and they are also sitting on discord voice for banter. But they don't invite the pug player to join them, and they don't bother explaining things in chat. Every time the pug player fails at some little thing (that was often not communicated clearly), someone on voice comms facepalms. Dissing the pug player behind the player's back becomes the group bonding exercise. It's fun. It's a nice scapegoat. You work yourself up in your little closed circle of friends, and learn to hate the pug player. (Sometimes the pug player actually is horrible.) If things are indeed going bad, then by the middle of the run someone might suggest to kick the pug player and do the key at one key lower. By the end of the run, someone might suggest to kick the pug player from the group when last boss is at 50%, just for the lulz ("I hate him!").

It's actually enough that there's one player in premade who gets easily tilted and needs to rant about pugs, and then 2-3 friends who will just passively nod and try to redirect it into a lighthearted humor.

It's group psychology 101. It happens even when none of the problems were exactly the pug player's fault.

Agreed on the above. Even if trolling wasn't the original intention it's very easy for 4 premade players to fuck up 1 PuG for whatever reason they deem fit.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, before the run I've had happen a few times, but mostly it's because like you said, either they say "hey we're bringing in a guildie/friend instead", or I imagine because the overgeared lock (me) looked nice to bring until they see a rogue in queue.

In that case it's extremely trivial. But the other poster's complaint seemed to be geared towards people abusing vote kicks during runs, which currently you could just be kicked with no vote at all during a run if the leader wanted to.

Oh yea in that context I agree, just that without penalties the action itself doesnt really carry any weight. As you mentioned you'll get gear anyway so it injures the group more than than the individual.

[shyguybman]

I can't believe people are leaving keys this week especially with a new affix and scaling. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of +15's this week are depleted and some dick decided to leave 10 minutes into our 15 key.

[Xath]

No it won't.

Yes it would nobody is going to deal with having to pay 500 to leave a key where people have no clue what they are doing they will just make sure they are playing with people who do.

[Dmh]

nice idea but hard to do

[clevin]

Instead of building systems that punish, you should be looking at WHY someone is leaving. Address the root issue instead of the symptoms. At the very root, the problem for most PuG M+ groups is where goals and expectations were not clearly communicated and agreed upon prior to starting a run.

Some people leave, though, because they're asshats. one mistake and they leave and one reason they do that is precisely because there IS NO DOWNSIDE.

You've ignored that and the fact that there's an asymmetry at work. The group is hurt by the leaver. The leaver is not hurt at all.

[Garymorilix]

I would make it so that if you HS out of an active M+ run your HS goes on a 7 day cooldown, plus you become ineligible to enter raid instances (both current and legacy) or mythic dungeons until the next weekly reset, you cannot use flying mounts either and every time you earn gold during this time (be it WQ, quest or even AH) 95% of the profits get evenly distributed to the 4 other people you left.

I think that would be a fair system.

[clevin]

That's a rather large wall of text for the purpose of flimsy digs and ambiguous reasoning.

In the situation you describe it's very easy to just form a 4 man group with a key you don't give a shit about, invite him, start the dungeon and vote kick and lock him out for an hour. Likewise, even if they were serious about the group but they recognise they aren't good enough to complete they can proceed to vote kick a guy either for not matching their expectations or even just "for the lulz".

No one is going to do this, though. I mean, you're making up something that will never, or at least almost never happen as an excuse to not fix a problem. This is a classic "The perfect is the enemy of the good" example.

[Tiwack]

I wish time and mobs would freeze and become immune upon a player leaving. Then to resume when a replacement was found everyone would just have to attack the same mob simultaneously to unfreeze the timer and instance. Currently there's no easy fix here other than vetting and checking the players you run with, ie chat them up/inspect them. If they're not friendly or it feels like talking to a wall, chances are they're not that invested/won't put up with an early wipe nor work through other encountered difficulties and challenges to be able to complete the instance.

[rodinspfc]

I can't believe people are leaving keys this week especially with a new affix and scaling. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of +15's this week are depleted and some dick decided to leave 10 minutes into our 15 key.

Not a +15, but a DH asshole left mine Waycrest14 after a single wipe, complete trash.

[Great Destiny Man]

No one is going to do this, though. I mean, you're making up something that will never, or at least almost never happen as an excuse to not fix a problem. This is a classic "The perfect is the enemy of the good" example.

No-one is very much a stretch. The first example is more just a situation where it can be abused for shits and giggles (I never particularly said that specific instance would be incredibly frequent).

People kicking because they're unhappy with how others are performing is very much more inline with what you see in general dungeon/IE kicks.

[klaps_05]

Its simple - players cant be trusted with any kind of automated system as they all end up just being abused. Thats the reason why you will never see an automation of groups for keys. It is the responsibility of the Party leader to pick the individuals. If people end up doing stupid shit in the dungeon, that means the vetting process was not thorough enough and the Party leader has failed to select the right people.

[Great Destiny Man]

Some people leave, though, because they're asshats. one mistake and they leave and one reason they do that is precisely because there IS NO DOWNSIDE.

You've ignored that and the fact that there's an asymmetry at work. The group is hurt by the leaver. The leaver is not hurt at all.

And just because you view someone as an asshat doesn't mean they were in the wrong. There are many inexperienced players that don't understand M+ dungeons enough to see how poor play can very much make specific key combos unclearable. I've seen decent players realise the folly of it and leave in those situations only for the inexperienced players to then go into a frothing rage about how much of a shitbag they are.

Wanting a penalty system in itself isn't a bad thing, but some people really have a raging hard on to try and get payback for anyone who's ever inconvenienced them.

[Kumorii]

Simple.

1. Give the owner of a key the option to "End Run" if they so wish, depleting their key and lowering it by a level, with no loot obtained. This would mark all players in group safe from any penalties for leaving the group. This is when the group as a whole knows they cant possibly finish the key or even want to finish it in the first place. The key owner knowingly sacrifices the key in hopes of getting something better but at one lower key level.
2. If the group lead is not ending a run that 4/5 people in the group no longer wish to be a part of, just do a "Vote to End" that requires at least 3 players to agree. This will also lower the key's level by 1.
3. If a player leaves the group without the key's owner ending it themselves, they are penalized, because they're obviously the one bailing on the run. The key then stays at it's current level, so the key's owner is not penalized and can have another go at it with another group with hopefully no one who bails on it again. If the player was kicked, this penalty does not occur, unless it was a "Vote to Kick". Obviously this means "Vote to Kick" should also be introduced. Voting to kick will allow the key to stay at the same level because the key is being ended abruptly due to a bad element. The player who is vote kicked will receive a 1 hour (or something similar) penalty debuff that does not allow them to be part of a keystone run. This will avoid abuse of this vote kick feature to "reset" a key that's going wrong. Unless you're happy to take a 1+ hour break to re-try the key in which case, more power to you.

Most of these systems already exist in the game. Blizz just needs to leverage that tech and those systems into the M+ gameplay loop.

Criticism is welcome. If you refute it without facts, don't bother, you won't receive a response.

Good ideas except for the vote to kick one. I don't even see what sort of purpose it does except making pugging worse for the ones that are joining a group. Whenever something goes wrong people tend to blame others, especially if they are with 1-2 others they know already. It's always the new random persons fault. Of course there are exceptions. This will only lead to puggers being kicked to preserve the key regardless if it was their fault or not.

I know you try to preserve the key for the group / player when someone else ruins it. Problem is that you either have to assume that they joined to ruin it, which is a case where it's warranted, compared to being picked and it was a bad choice or had a bad day. The latter isn't a punishable offence. So how would you differ the two? You can't, which means I prefer that it shouldn't be possible to vote kick to preserve a key. That preservation is a pretty big incentive to actually do kick randoms when things goes bad just because.