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  1. #1

    How did pvp gearing get this bad?

    For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve.

    The time it takes to become reasonably geared (say 420-430) to not get squashed in bgs or arenas is also the longest its been unless you m+, and even then its not really fast.

    The way to get good gear in pvp is now, again for the first time in wow, rating, which is retarded in a pvp enviornment that used to encourage a level playing field.

    Who at blizzard possibly thought this was a good idea? Why? It boggles the mind and i hope do a 180 in shadowlands because in the course of a single expac they managed to wreck a well built pvp reward structure that remained satisfying for years.

  2. #2
    Like everything in wow nowadays, it's to make you GRIND.
    If you grind, then you don't get your rewards and then fuck off until the next content patch, and most importantly, stop paying your sub.

    Pvp-ers used to get their pvp gear in 1-2 months, wreck noobs, get bored and fuck off.

    But if the pvp gear is a joke, and they have to grind gear for months like everyone else, then they stay subbed like everyone else.

    Unlesd of course they're part of that teeny tiny percentage that are actually high rated.
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  3. #3
    because WoW at its core is a PvE game and it has taken blizzard over 10 years to realize this. with every expansion came major changes to PvP as a concept inside the primary game, and with every expansion they come back to this realization.

  4. #4
    The biggest problem is that gearing through PvP is basically impossible at this point. Not that it takes a long time, but that it's virtually impossible altogether. In part because you need to play about 50 arenas for one piece of gear (maybe exaggerating, but it feels like it) and secondly because the gear is trash until 2200 and getting there with 200k health is gonna be a struggle to say the least.

    That being said, PvE gear has been king in arenas since BC, so really nothing new there. The best trinkets, weapons, and sometimes even tier bonuses were always important if you were pushing for rank 1 because that's what all the other players had. I mean if all else was equal the team with Warglaives would usually win back in BC, and same goes for Shadowmourne in Wrath.

    I actually think gearing in mythic+ is really fast, especially if you have friends to run with and can bang out a lot of keys in a row. I have a 445 tank friend and he can almost solo all the way to +10 as long as the other members have a pulse, so I can easily get an alt going into mythic10s within a day of hitting 120. From there it's just finding friends to run with that will give you gear, I got my Shaman from 390 to 435 in like two days doing like 4 mythic+ and clearing heroic eternal palace with friends that basically gave me every drop. I imagine without that it would have taken a couple of weeks to get to 435, and if I had to gear entirely alone I imagine it would have taken about a month. Which honestly isn't that bad to full gear, except we're so close to the next season starting it makes it feel a little pointless to grind up gear that's just going to be replaced anyway.

    If they made PvP gear slightly better, maybe start it at 415 and have 430 gear drop at 1600, as well as increase the drop rate in arenas, I actually think it would be fine. It'll be interesting to see how they scale the gear next season, I'm guessing though 440 gear will start dropping at 1600 which is still going to be 30+ ilvls behind mythic raiders and mythic 15s.

  5. #5
    Recently came back to WoW, tried some PvP to be met with Fury Warriors with 450k HP... fuck that.

    Bring back Legion's baselined stats with ilvl have a minute increase in health... it's this gear dependency that completely puts me off PvP in MMORPGs. It should be about skill, not gear...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    Like everything in wow nowadays, it's to make you GRIND.
    I don't think that's the problem.
    The problem is two folded:
    1.PvP gearing is just flat out broken, you rely on completely End of game RNG rewards, Conquest giving you shit items in terms of Ilvl and the only passable reward is the Weekly chest, which even requires you to have 2,1k Rating to even get a 440 Azerite piece.

    2.M+ is overrewarding, a M+10 is pretty easy if you are a halfway decent player, takes about 30min and has a good chance of giving you a 430 item, depending on your comp, you might even get some items from other people.

    It's a similiar issue as in Legion, PvP and PvE gear is virtually the same but PvE gear is far easier to acquire, which in turn kinda invalidates a part of the reason to play PvP because you already have all your gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    and they have to grind gear for months like everyone else
    That's just not true.
    Unless you count Titanforging as an amazing incentive to keep playing (which it isn't), then you are probably not receiving a lot of upgrades anymore after ~2 months into a patch, depending on your skill level.
    Because the game showers you in gear, you just spam M+ and sit on your heroic Ilvl, if you have no intention of entering Mythic raid, that's good enough.

    Gear as a progression system is broken, that's why Blizzard has introduced systems such as AP so players still have some sort of power progression.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    The biggest problem is that gearing through PvP is basically impossible at this point. Not that it takes a long time, but that it's virtually impossible altogether. In part because you need to play about 50 arenas for one piece of gear (maybe exaggerating, but it feels like it) and secondly because the gear is trash until 2200 and getting there with 200k health is gonna be a struggle to say the least.

    That being said, PvE gear has been king in arenas since BC, so really nothing new there. The best trinkets, weapons, and sometimes even tier bonuses were always important if you were pushing for rank 1 because that's what all the other players had. I mean if all else was equal the team with Warglaives would usually win back in BC, and same goes for Shadowmourne in Wrath.

    I actually think gearing in mythic+ is really fast, especially if you have friends to run with and can bang out a lot of keys in a row. I have a 445 tank friend and he can almost solo all the way to +10 as long as the other members have a pulse, so I can easily get an alt going into mythic10s within a day of hitting 120. From there it's just finding friends to run with that will give you gear, I got my Shaman from 390 to 435 in like two days doing like 4 mythic+ and clearing heroic eternal palace with friends that basically gave me every drop. I imagine without that it would have taken a couple of weeks to get to 435, and if I had to gear entirely alone I imagine it would have taken about a month. Which honestly isn't that bad to full gear, except we're so close to the next season starting it makes it feel a little pointless to grind up gear that's just going to be replaced anyway.

    If they made PvP gear slightly better, maybe start it at 415 and have 430 gear drop at 1600, as well as increase the drop rate in arenas, I actually think it would be fine. It'll be interesting to see how they scale the gear next season, I'm guessing though 440 gear will start dropping at 1600 which is still going to be 30+ ilvls behind mythic raiders and mythic 15s.
    I agree that pvp gearing is nigh impossible from pure pvp, which sucks. Your example about tbc is misleading. True, some pve rewards were great to have (and i think thats a mistake that was fixed around mop), but resilience made it so pvp gear was the best avenu for gearing, with pve giving only some advantage. its exactly for this reason resillience was generously budgeted on pvp gear, because blizz wanted to make pvp gear the best course for pvpers.

    Also, the fact mythic+ gearing is fast is irrelevant at best and part of the problem at worst. Im 445 due to liking m+, but many many pvpers don't, and there is no legit reason to encourage them to play content they hate where previous systems didn't even have this problem.

    Most of my arena friends, who really were arena junkies that loved the game from wrath to legion, left in bfa because they never want to pve for pvp, and i don't see any reason to force them.
    Last edited by Amariw; 2019-12-23 at 12:30 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's a similiar issue as in Legion, PvP and PvE gear is virtually the same but PvE gear is far easier to acquire, which in turn kinda invalidates a part of the reason to play PvP because you already have all your gear.
    That's the issue in a nutshell. They should have never gotten rid of PvP gear. Creating a gear treadmill in which PvP gear competes with PvE gear is bound to screw the PvP players. I'm still amazed by the fact that they couldn't see this coming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amariw View Post
    Most of my arena friends, who really were arena junkies that loved the game from wrath to legion, left in bfa because they never want to pve for pvp, and i don't see any reason to force them.
    Exact same thing happened to 95% of my PvP mates and ultimately to me. The only PvP players I know that still play WoW for PvP are the ones that actually make good money by boosting people and only play the game as a job (which they hate).
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2019-12-23 at 12:32 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    That's the issue in a nutshell. They should have never gotten rid of PvP gear. Creating a gear treadmill in which PvP gear competes with PvE gear is bound to screw the PvP players. I'm still amazed by the fact that they couldn't see this coming.

    Exact same thing happened to 95% of my PvP mates and ultimately to me. The only PvP players I know that still play WoW for PvP are the ones that actually make good money by boosting people and only play the game as a job (which they hate).
    So agonizingly true it hurts.

  10. #10
    I think the problem came in when they wanted PVP gear to also be good in PVE. So it just became PVE gears little brother because PVE gear is easier to get, target specific slots, and in many slots just superior to the PVP equavilant. When the two were designed differently for each branch specificlly it was just a superior system. But with Ion at the helm if it doesn't make you raid/m+ or die it isn't happening.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    I think the problem came in when they wanted PVP gear to also be good in PVE. So it just became PVE gears little brother because PVE gear is easier to get, target specific slots, and in many slots just superior to the PVP equavilant. When the two were designed differently for each branch specificlly it was just a superior system. But with Ion at the helm if it doesn't make you raid/m+ or die it isn't happening.
    No, they wanted PvE gear to be also good in PvP - not the other way around. Look at the way Legion handled PvP gear. It was hard as fuck to actually get decent gear and even if you got your pieces 90% of the items had versatility. What's that? Your class doesn't need versatility in PvE? Tough luck. Now go grind some M+, kiddo.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2019-12-23 at 12:48 PM.

  12. #12
    The core problem was when the removed downscaling of PvE gear in PvP, and PvP-specific stats. That forced PvP and PvE into a gearing conflict in which one had to lose.

    I suspect the decision to do this can be traced back to Warmode.

    Casual players now have almost no reason to do PvP. The gear they can get from casual PvP utterly sucks, compared to what they can get from casual PvE.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    No, they wanted PvE gear to be also good in PvP - not the other way around. Look at the way Legion handled PvP gear. It was hard as fuck to actually get decent gear and even if you got your pieces 90% of the items had versatility. What's that? Your class doesn't need versatility in PvE? Tough luck. Now go grind some M+, kiddo.
    Ye, and it was also a problem, but atleast templates made gearing less relevant. It was the same bad mindset but with a great workaround that made it fun.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    No, they wanted PvE gear to be also good in PvP - not the other way around. Look at the way Legion handled PvP gear. It was hard as fuck to actually get decent gear and even if you got your pieces 90% of the items had versatility. What's that? Your class doesn't need versatility in PvE? Tough luck. Now go grind some M+, kiddo.
    pve grear isn't just good in pvp, it's almost mandatory.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Amariw View Post
    For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve.

    The time it takes to become reasonably geared (say 420-430) to not get squashed in bgs or arenas is also the longest its been unless you m+, and even then its not really fast.
    I disagree.

    This is my current gear from just easy getting the low hanging fruits:



    I would even wear more rival pieces with same ilvl, but the sockets from my m+ and mythic items made the decision.

    Thats pretty balanced for me and I just cap my weekly in pvp and nothing more. The pvp items are the ones that came basicly for free with the least amount of playtime.

    The first 2 season in BfA were ridiculous stupid. The highest ilvl and the best trinkets with high ilvl were seen on pvp players with just moderate rating. The amount of free pvp loot with above raid powerlevels were just stupid. It forced basicly everyone to do at least the weekly pvp chest and some 2min classes were forced to do pvp to get trinkets as there was no alternative in m+ or mythic raid.

    Additionally some of the best Azerite combinations are only available from PVP, nothing from mythic raiding nor m+ vendor loot comes even close to this. Its stupid and forces pve players to do pvp just to get PVE azerite pieces that got zero ussage in pvp.

    Even if we look at the current season you are wrong, but if we compare the whole bfa loot shittshow from pvp free epics, you are just trolling.
    Last edited by Ange; 2019-12-23 at 01:27 PM.
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  16. #16
    Imo the best gearing for PvP was in Cata.
    I know I know, some ppl used full PvE tier sets cuz that shit was OP. Still they'd get wrecked when someone got to them because that's how Resilience worked.
    What made it so good was that you could mix and match pieces based on your class and how much offensive/defensive need it had.

    That being said, what I really miss is grinding BG's, Arenas and doing some RBG's from time to time to get emblem cap. Even if you were Honor capped, you could still do BG's and get something out of it, since there were Reagents you could buy with Honor or Trade Honor for Justice to get PvE items and the same would go for Conquest/Valor.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    No, they wanted PvE gear to be also good in PvP - not the other way around. Look at the way Legion handled PvP gear. It was hard as fuck to actually get decent gear and even if you got your pieces 90% of the items had versatility. What's that? Your class doesn't need versatility in PvE? Tough luck. Now go grind some M+, kiddo.
    Umm, you are mistaken here mate. In Legion, your gear BARELY mattered, because EVERY class/spec had a very, VERY specfic template with specific stats - Basically every single feral was the exact same as every other feral in terms of stats, and the case was the same for EVERY other spec. Every 10 ilvls above 800 ilvl added +1% to that template's stats, so somebody doing Mythic Antorus would only have 17% more stats then a fresh lvl 110. And getting the free 930 ilvl pieces from Argus moved that up to a +13% vs +17%, or less then a 4% overall stat difference. The biggest difference in preformance in Legion instanced PvP came from Artifact power, where somebody with a lvl 0 Artifact weapon would get stomped by somebody with a lvl 100 Artifact weapon due to having roughly 75% more damage and health - But then again, it only took a single day of doing all the AP WQs to get caught up to the point that the difference in power instead became a +2000 main stat proc vs +5000 main stat proc, which wasn't anywhere near as significant.

    Thus, players who played WoW specifically for PvP could preform at ALMOST the same lvl as players who did nothing but PvE IN PvP content. Legion was the BEST balanced expansion in terms of gear in PvP, hands down. And then BfA threw that balance out the window, 20 stories up. Now, you have to hit 2k rating to even have a shot at gear that +10s (Which are fairly easy atm) give you. What's more, compared to getting 1 piece per 20 wins (After 80 wins in 2v2 this season, I've only gotten 3 pieces of loot, all of which were pretty !@#$ing garbage), M+ rewards 2-3 pieces of loot (3 on the dungeon week) for 5 players - So you go from a 5% chance to get gear per win, to a whopping 40-60% chance to get loot per each M+. Considering that a M+ takes 20-30 minutes, and arena matches are variable (2s can be quick, 2-5 minutes, but 3s can really drag out sometimes, and RBGs can take 20 minutes to JUST find a match, not to mention an additional 20 minutes to decide a victor) makes M+ far, FAR superior to PvP for gearing.

    This doesn't even mention the fact that some of the better Azerite essences (I commonly see Focusing Iris or Azerite Guardian in PvP) are entirely PvE oriented. Also, trinkets. Some of the more powerful trinkets in PvP come from PvE sources. And the only GOOD PvP trinket, the heal-absorb on, is on the GCD!
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Umm, you are mistaken here mate. In Legion, your gear BARELY mattered, because EVERY class/spec had a very, VERY specfic template with specific stats - Basically every single feral was the exact same as every other feral in terms of stats, and the case was the same for EVERY other spec. Every 10 ilvls above 800 ilvl added +1% to that template's stats, so somebody doing Mythic Antorus would only have 17% more stats then a fresh lvl 110. And getting the free 930 ilvl pieces from Argus moved that up to a +13% vs +17%, or less then a 4% overall stat difference. The biggest difference in preformance in Legion instanced PvP came from Artifact power, where somebody with a lvl 0 Artifact weapon would get stomped by somebody with a lvl 100 Artifact weapon due to having roughly 75% more damage and health - But then again, it only took a single day of doing all the AP WQs to get caught up to the point that the difference in power instead became a +2000 main stat proc vs +5000 main stat proc, which wasn't anywhere near as significant.

    Thus, players who played WoW specifically for PvP could preform at ALMOST the same lvl as players who did nothing but PvE IN PvP content. Legion was the BEST balanced expansion in terms of gear in PvP, hands down. And then BfA threw that balance out the window, 20 stories up. Now, you have to hit 2k rating to even have a shot at gear that +10s (Which are fairly easy atm) give you. What's more, compared to getting 1 piece per 20 wins (After 80 wins in 2v2 this season, I've only gotten 3 pieces of loot, all of which were pretty !@#$ing garbage), M+ rewards 2-3 pieces of loot (3 on the dungeon week) for 5 players - So you go from a 5% chance to get gear per win, to a whopping 40-60% chance to get loot per each M+. Considering that a M+ takes 20-30 minutes, and arena matches are variable (2s can be quick, 2-5 minutes, but 3s can really drag out sometimes, and RBGs can take 20 minutes to JUST find a match, not to mention an additional 20 minutes to decide a victor) makes M+ far, FAR superior to PvP for gearing.

    This doesn't even mention the fact that some of the better Azerite essences (I commonly see Focusing Iris or Azerite Guardian in PvP) are entirely PvE oriented. Also, trinkets. Some of the more powerful trinkets in PvP come from PvE sources. And the only GOOD PvP trinket, the heal-absorb on, is on the GCD!
    Nothing what you said relates to my post. I was replying to someone who said Legion's changes to PvP itemization were made in order to make PvP gear viable in PvE.

    Also you seem to ignore that it was impossible in Legion to get to a decent artifact level without playing PvE content whereas previous expansions (mainly WoD and MoP) only required you to play PvP to be pretty much BiS for PvP (except for the last WoD season perhaps where mythic hfc rings were better for some specs). I'm not arguing that Legion was worse than BfA in terms of PvP gear. BfA is by far the worst expansion when it comes to that. But that doesn't mean Legion was any good either. Just look at what Legion did to PvP participation and don't forget that Legion was the expansion that got rid of PvP gear to begin with.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    I disagree.

    This is my current gear from just easy getting the low hanging fruits:



    I would even wear more rival pieces with same ilvl, but the sockets from my m+ and mythic items made the decision.

    Thats pretty balanced for me and I just cap my weekly in pvp and nothing more. The pvp items are the ones that came basicly for free with the least amount of playtime.
    Ok, now try getting to Rival on a fresh character, rather then your Mythic raiding character.

    Without abusing certain combos (I.E. Rogue/Fire mage opener resulting in 1 team either having to pop trinkets early or eat a 35% health nuke+remaining opener), one can NOT reach Rival rating without doing PvE oriented content.
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Recently came back to WoW, tried some PvP to be met with Fury Warriors with 450k HP... fuck that.

    Bring back Legion's baselined stats with ilvl have a minute increase in health... it's this gear dependency that completely puts me off PvP in MMORPGs. It should be about skill, not gear...

    I wholeheartedly agree.

    I'm LOVING Korrack's right now and not because of the quick leveling but because everyone is so close in stats it doesnt matter. True I still come across the one person who twinks their arse off and abuses the system but Im still having a blast playing SKILL against SKILL.

    I couldnt pvp on regular if I wanted to. I dont remotely have the gear to be competitive cause I dont raid. Been playing 15 yrs and have never raided so I get left in the dust cause I do not like Arena either (pillar humping oo how skillful)

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