How did pvp gearing get this bad?

[Nynax]

I honestly think Resilience gear (with vendors) was the best version of a pvp gear system there was.

It was the only time when you needed pvp gear, for pvp, that was obtained through pvp. Add in the win/loss reward cache and it wasn't hard to build that initial resilience, from which the gear progression was obvious and straightforward.

And the fact that resilience didn't count towards iLVL stat budgets, and you still had pvp gear that would be "okay" in pve, but not well itemized for it.

Maybe what I'd like to see more of is simply progression that is most beneficial to the content you're progressing in. PVP gear gets resilience back, maybe raid gear gets a new "determination" stat, M+ gear gets a new "frenzy" stat...idk. Thinking out loud here.

[Alkizon]

Once again you forgetting about fundamental 3 rules, which are <dividing characteristics> <customizing characteristics> <progress>.

Just for reference, PvP gear (real, and not heresy that they have now) technically isn't loot at all, only programmatic elements of division of progress and ranking of participation time/total experience, the rest lies on rating system's "shoulders". This is in case you'll want to reduce whole conversation to opposition of what can and should work according to different such rules (so not to violate and not cause conflicts in its general/global rules).

Versatility

Do you know main problem of versatility? It works in PvE, and a lot of it in PvE will also be very effective, especially for tanks
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even if only because there is no need now for secondary characteristics that are more logical for tank role, including both old hit/expertise and completing particular type of tanking: mastery/block/parry/evasion/deffence ~ avoidance, while basic need for these characteristics is also controlled by such fundamental concept as Threat

tl;dr
1) tanking characteristics give bonus to effectiveness of "tanking" abilities (threat/damage/all-forms-of-avoidance), while damage abilities will naturally hit less because you'll have less common useful characteristics, hp-loss/receiving-damage in this case brings strong decrease in threat level without first ones; 2) outgoing heal significantly increases threat's level, and overheal even much stronger; 3) general PvE characteristics (hit/expertise/regeneration; don't confuse with generally useful ones) add efficiency bonus to all abilities for observing parameters of encounter (like soft-timers/resource-depletion/enrage, etc.); 4) resilience primarily affects only interactions between characters (for both having this characteristic: sums up for "supporting each other" abilities - maybe even up to a certain regeneration bonus with positive activity for healing/treating character, subtracted for "acting against" ones - up to significant decrease in effectiveness of recipient's "PvE tanking" characteristics = help attacker to partially ignore them), in other words, it gives that same increase in protection and damage in PvP activity and living without it will be very uncomfortable; 5) at the same time, if assumed, that its similar efficiency/work will be maintained in PvE, then group fully staffed in PvP stat will greatly lose in speed of achieving desired result due to insufficient PvE characteristics - they'll get misses/threat-disbalance/incoming-damage/insufficient-damage and regeneration to fulfill encounter's conditions; 6) since significant part of generally useful characteristics for PvE is taken (on items) by general PvE characteristics, and by resilence - for PvP, so generally useful characteristics/stats can remain here completely proportional to level of items received (~conditionally equivalent to each other) same as level itself, which makes use items "for other activity" still not entirely useless and creates some kind of similar to catch-up mechanics "in case of laziness/as last resort". 7) characteristics' efficiency isn't linear and grows along decaying/exponentially tending to absolute value, but never reaching it thereby creating its soft cap, only problem remains to determine stacking capacity of such within particular class, which, however, can always be compensated by talents of particular build)... in one of discussions we considered absolute case of separation, in which all white defense was replaced by "PvP-defense", and white attack by "PvP-attack" - as tier-bonus (by analogy with trinkets) from joint use of both PvP-weapons, but this deprives system of succession and catch-up functionality, which I don't like

Many, especially magic classes, were alarmed by behavior of such element (resistance) in PvP and PvE, but earlier there was characteristic of spell penetration for PvE, and for PvP this characteristic could, if question was correctly posed, be devalued up to 95% by presence of cap of resilience, everything can be easy and simple, you just need to not contradict logic.

taking into account that it's tanking abilities, thanks to such stats, that should bring them to forefront in terms of its growth, and under-formation of this base will lead not only to inefficiency of private role of “punching bag”, but also of “raid shield" from boss's rage which is much broder and fuller term for indicated role - you have just universal stat of damage and avoidance everyone from everything in any game activity for any role, and the whole "role choice" part has already been equipped inside "spec", not gear (= characteristics) ...so we're smoothly returning to wrong hierarchy (= priorities) in class design
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What condition does this impose on PvP gearing? Everything is very simple, they can’t give you much, at least at start and even in middle of your “progress” it’s for sure, which means, that it's not able to compete with PvE gear in terms of influence on received content... so, by the time it starts to influence (in fact) - it already really ceases to be needed (otherwise PvP items will be much better even for PvE).

"PvE powers"

What follows from all this: return of resilience (MoP = pvp-power + pvp-resilience) would be good, but you also would need competing parameters for PvE (and these should NOT be general “customizable” characteristics that are absolute/universal - which will make characters stronger in both areas, since thereby equipment, which will have them much more, will be more desirable, no no

MoanaLisa
Limited time to play implies more solo play so PVE is a natural choice.

I'd say that statement would be true only if obtaining progress and content mostly tied to it (since limited time =<priority>= profit activities), but since there is no specialization in characteristics (PvP vs PvE) and PvP doesn't usually take precedence in direct progress for such conditions (since encounters aren't limited by CD, they're controlled(/exploitable) by players and take lesser time), your statement is absolutely true. It's logical, because conclusion in this case is obvious and no any stupid PvP talents will be able to prevent this. I'd criticize word "solo" in same way, but I won't.

but those which namely balancing PvE equip's utility specially for PvE), which were so unloved by all of you hit/expertise/spirit etc rating "PvE-encounters'role" characteristics (they didn't give jumps to "absolute"/universal players' strength, but made them more effective for this area). Whole system is needed, and not torn out pieces here and there. There is few words about itemization also regarding PvP here (in upgrade/catch-up area).

Requirements for such system (for full-fledged work within one integral game, MoP is way where to go).

- simplicity of implementation and understanding (literality/minimum layers)
- without breaking class/talent boundaries
- sufficient variety for role-based customization
- its complete control/tuning by player = no automation/scaling
- support for full separation of game activities without setting hard boundaries in the game (this is still one game, not two, same common world, same rules), namely separation gear without violating freedom and principles of customization and progress, these are 2 different ways (can be configured by devs separately), but their essence is absolutely identical both in terms of principles and depth (if understood how one works, then also know second one, same ceiling = same degree of customization)
~ this division must support basis for controlling combat system of each specific individual activity, since mobs and players in battle have completely different tasks and capabilities, as well as difference in organization of respective encounters.

WoD version is wrong one

Significant remark: It's completely clear (based on foregoing) that scaling system used in WoD also doesn't satisfy any general conditions, since 1) it complicates whole, even without it, "hard-working on bug-forming" mathematical component (even sharp stats' jumps unpleasant); 2) doesn't form adequate/balancing and controlled by player mutual “weakening” of participation in another/activity not intended for this gear (penalty for wrong activity together with benefits for right matching, this fully includes balance of size for incoming/outgoing damage/healing/control and regeneration/absorption between participation in different activities); 3) completely devalue progress part and therefore experience/training period for particular activity (PvE2PvP items are conditionally interchangeable (mostly in this direction) without strict requirements for corresponding characteristics, participant doesn't feel direct damage to stuff already had (just falls short to rest ones), which means, that participation (=experience'growth) isn't necessary; dominance of directly reinforcing characteristics remains, which itself isn't good (see post's last quote, control shouldn't be their privilege)); 4) creates blurred border between them, which introduces some people into various forms of misconceptions regarding stats'/itemization organization. All it does just scales ilvl. My attitude to this technology can be read even, though, in section further.

PvP stat requirements makes PvE gear useless, and PvE do PvP one.

at the same time, common customizable characteristics hold them together within one system (without need to artificially weaken players against each other, and without canceling need to make them stronger against mobs). WoD gearing doesn't fulfill this condition (= is still wrong), since both of them were simply deleted.

Scaling

BUT! The only problem they will have in this case is problem of working similar simple and universal system with their "broken from all sides" items' scaling with role/level/patch and other crap + add also mobs' scaling here, then additional hidden "scaling" in PvP (about which some players still talking). This entire “scalable for best or worst” system needs to be cut to bud, and places, where it will work, somehow be enclosed by deep moat, high walls and barbed wire under current... and if remember about borrowed powers mmm...

Afterword

Also, don't forget about PvP sets (+ starting sets from professions for absolute PvE-"idlers").

Bonus list of almost everything that contributed to (w)PvP decay period.

ps. I don't know already how much I need to repeat same thing again and again. It’s not difficult, everything is extremely clear and simple

---

Struggle about why PvP vs PvE is on "same" mechanism of progression:

tl;dr they have common base and common spheres of interaction, hence requirement of common fundamental design

So... "why?"
1) path was (and should be) quite short-lived (also professions' sets), still overall design of game strongly influences this = inflation of characteristics that they organize in PvE, bunch of anomalous "difficulties" (they removed items' x-forge, which cuts "growth" quite well, but multiple modes still remain and each of them "requires" its own niche in order to have personal one "carrot" in its arsenal as "ilvl boost"); 2) at the same time there is "any mode/open world" where players of items from "both modes" continue to interact = hence same requirements for progress; 3) class is good, but there are also customizing characteristics that emphasize this or that role, or direct character's strength in general (and it's if even not remind endless number of stupid "temporary progress" systems which comes with new content, and require such influence that they violate rules of system's hierarchy), which means that mechanism for obtaining them is required (= progress). That's what it comes out in the end...

Of course, I could say this without jokes:
presence of PvE gear progress imposes presence of same progress in PvP, 1) since characteristics are one of your resources and customizing mechanism in this game so gear needed same as its progress, 2) since main task of PvP is to outplay/outsmart enemy by monipulating resources, which often requires not so much motoric's skill growth, but more experience, knowledge of ready-made combinations = 2 - scripted solutions, and 1 - mechanism of getting those resources = progress (char.lvl, gear)... 1+2 = just like PvE (just without specific timers, more reactionary than dance type, but still with same base). Devs have already said themselves once that "we can make opponents harder/smarter/more"reactive", but this type will interfere with ordinary players, as well as game's performance". So, if simplify within framework of holistic design, then PvE is just more predictable PvP, hence same progress mechanism.
This is what this game is based on, this is how it works.

What you're asking requires complete separation, transformation of one game into two. They made good progress in this regard with WM, which is separately discussed bad design decision. But until this happened (and I won't in any way want such deformation, personally think that such end result (as well as already noted "direction") would be absolute failure, apotheosis of mindless "slice&dice" action; this isn't fighting/shooting game, this is still team MMORPG game and it can't be crammed into MOBA genre) you have to obey progress/customization requirements... unfortunately this may well be where game is headed now = "set of themed separated PvP and PvE arenas/encounters"

In general, whole PvPvsPvE problem can be briefly described like this:
(intersection) In presence of plane of intersection (within framework of one game, not two), meeting of two characters (in instance with pre-check of preferences, like BG/WM - direct definition of PvP, or random/unmotivated/unpredictable in open world - wPvP) which are at same level of their individual (as percentage of their length at current stage/season of expansion) paths of progress in current conditions leads (without separating characteristics) to advantage bias in one direction or another.
(conflict) With unequal bias of strength (ilvl's bar and speed/ease of its growth) towards PvE, it turns into "freebie" for opposite activity, which also means, that for greater importance, path in PvP should be as fast as possible (so that, even with progress, more preference was given nevertheless to skill, so game will mostly go on rating after all, which directly "PvP people" want), but is equivalent in terms of general strength/role-customizing indicators (to eliminate initial mentioned element of conflict), which (without additional dividing parameters) turns already latter one into freebie = bringing correlation of complexity and rewarding between two activities to common denominator impossible without separation factor.
(separation) In presence of separating both PvP and PvE characteristics (again, within framework of same one game), everything falls into place for each activity (1. no freebies, 2. same lvl/amount of strength/role-customizing indicators, 3. corresponding items offer advantages in their proper use, 4. there is progress which creating some hierarchy/ranking according to duration of participation/own experience of particular activity, and allows more adequately select opponents even outside of rating, but 5. it's not really long, thereof PvP caps' obtainment didn't create really "long" problems for PvE players), and with return of adequate "directional" servers, also goes away unnecessary claims of players to "someone else's choice" in relation to interest in part of everyone's participation in particular activity = complete separation of activities is obtained, still within framework of one game and obeying main rules of open world (without setting unnecessary restrictions and without inventing unnecessary artificial bonuses), leaving solution of particular situation to each player's will...
(no influence) When dividing game into two different ones, all this no longer required, since laws of each can be completely different, due to lack of any plane of interaction (= lack of mutual influence), but game will suffer irreparable damage in such division (even more than their forced division of classes into specs, addition PvP perks and removal of PvP servers).

Other similar conversations:

What exactly can be learned from this:
1) person, who said that gear isn't important at up-rate PvP, is rights, since people, who're there, have gone path of "qualifications/progress" and are at the same/very close in progress;
2) if you read one of last links of 3rd paragraph, it becomes clear that system with access to "near/same-level orbit" took place at some period within the game - we are talking about cap's accessibility, player's skill helped only in reducing path's length (+ a couple of good ones, but not significantly outweighing bonuses), which means that only really connoisseurs of this pastime remained fighting for the rating, so mostly didn't interfere with "rest of plebs swarming in the mud" (for the same reason, link with raid progress description insists on their bonuses' insignificance, but there must be some logic behind this, and not stupid illogical "shutdown", that's for PvE, also badge items);
3) previous one was possible due to presence of requirements of corresponding characteristics, namely, rather rapid progress in PvP didn't outweigh PvE progress due to lack of rating PvE characteristics (which everyone had forgotten long ago, and this is very wrong), and subsequent PvE progress with moderate inflation didn't outweigh PvP due to non-participation of PvP characteristics in it (badge items, being same "powerfully", has non of both);
4) so - same path and size/amount of customizing/power characteristics on items for both activities (ilvl), but they don't interfere with each other for (3), which means that their path (speed/stages) can be controlled separately from each other (2), still progress/ranking system, being the basis game mechanics, continues to fully carry out its work.

They continue to fail to understand that when people argue about whether progress and items are important in PvP, then everyone is right in own way, so you need to give "both", ie give progress to compensate for PvE progress (for this use dividing characteristics), but progress: 1) should not take a million exhausting @$$-hours (and this is strictly speaking both for the sake of PvE and for the sake of PvP community, both sides will benefit from it because PvP isn't PvE, there is completely different component of "satisfaction"; dividing helps to avoid escalating conflict between PvP/PvE progress); 2) have really achievable "leveling" ceiling, where skill and set of characteristics you have chosen will already be important (people continue to participate in PvP either by dressing twinks for this or simply enjoying process without additional revards, however, cosmetics in itself could be a small bonus, there is nothing wrong with that, but you don't need to weave PvE progress here); 3) at the same time, entire structure of classes shouldn't depend in any way on this action (in order to avoid direct dependence of system's balancing on classes' structure and design; for the same reason so-called PvP talents "designated for idiots" was initial delusion, like paragon system, like "borrowed powers" - all this is directly related to organization of progress), this is pure mathematics and organization of characteristics; 4) the whole structure of progress must stop resembling economic crisis (I'm talking about inflation).

[Amariw]

I honestly think Resilience gear (with vendors) was the best version of a pvp gear system there was.

It was the only time when you needed pvp gear, for pvp, that was obtained through pvp. Add in the win/loss reward cache and it wasn't hard to build that initial resilience, from which the gear progression was obvious and straightforward.

And the fact that resilience didn't count towards iLVL stat budgets, and you still had pvp gear that would be "okay" in pve, but not well itemized for it.

Maybe what I'd like to see more of is simply progression that is most beneficial to the content you're progressing in. PVP gear gets resilience back, maybe raid gear gets a new "determination" stat, M+ gear gets a new "frenzy" stat...idk. Thinking out loud here.

I completely agree, excpet that its not only resilience which achieved the goals you talk about. Scaling pvp-only ilvl in mop (it got highier ilvl in bgs/arenas) achieved exactly the same goal, of making pvp gear the best for pve and decent, but not better, then pve gear for pve. Resilience was just as good, i'm not sure i even have a preference.

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Most abilitys got pve and pvp treatment, nothing changed.

Some outliers exists, look at 2v2 arena META and you can guess what classes got away with some pve=pvp abilitys but you can just join a random 2v2 and see for yourself - its not hard to get from the numbers alone.

The pvp gearsystem was horrible, you had tanky specs running around in resilience heavy gear/gems while burst comps could even get much worse. Balance was bad without pvp gear and could get really cheesy up to broken in stacked gear. Single tuned abilitys and spells make a much better experience.

The only thing people miss are the ROFL-SWIFTY-MACRO-ONE-SHOT with gear/cd-spam advantage that required zero skill.

Otherwise the game was never better for low geared players in PVP. People run around above 2k with 380 gear and 1 green essence and are farming cap-mythic-raiders 24/7. This whole topic is a 180° turn to whats really happening in the game and like I said when people realise that they have to do PVP AGAIN in 8.3 the forum will be spammed all day long with the PVP hate.

I think i replied to you multiple times about it, i didn't open the topic to "hate pve and force people to pvp for pve gear", i think the gear should be clearly seperate in some form that makes each activity the best way to gear for that activity. That means pve should be the best way to pve, not just vice versa. If you're right about 8.3, it just means the problem is severe enough pve is hurt by it too.

[Nnyco]

Hahahaha oh man you cant be serious, " For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve."

This happened so many times so far and it happens the other way around too, there been plenty of times where bis items were pvp pieces for pve as much there been bis pvp pieces from pve.

[Misuteri]

Imo the best gearing for PvP was in Cata.
I know I know, some ppl used full PvE tier sets cuz that shit was OP. Still they'd get wrecked when someone got to them because that's how Resilience worked.
What made it so good was that you could mix and match pieces based on your class and how much offensive/defensive need it had.

That being said, what I really miss is grinding BG's, Arenas and doing some RBG's from time to time to get emblem cap. Even if you were Honor capped, you could still do BG's and get something out of it, since there were Reagents you could buy with Honor or Trade Honor for Justice to get PvE items and the same would go for Conquest/Valor.

I’ll say that I mostly agree with this.

The PVP gearing was still better than PVE gear but people still did raiding for BIS PVP weapons. The specials on DS stuff were just great.

I never had a problem with BIS weapons being raid acquired with the exception of Warglaives but that was a decade ago.

[Phurox]

I wholeheartedly agree.

I'm LOVING Korrack's right now and not because of the quick leveling but because everyone is so close in stats it doesnt matter. True I still come across the one person who twinks their arse off and abuses the system but Im still having a blast playing SKILL against SKILL.

I couldnt pvp on regular if I wanted to. I dont remotely have the gear to be competitive cause I dont raid. Been playing 15 yrs and have never raided so I get left in the dust cause I do not like Arena either (pillar humping oo how skillful)

Agree. Korraks Revenge is the most fun pvp I've had in years cus its balanced. 8 can kill players cus better, and I don't get nuked all the time by m10 players.

[Amariw]

Hahahaha oh man you cant be serious, " For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve."

This happened so many times so far and it happens the other way around too, there been plenty of times where bis items were pvp pieces for pve as much there been bis pvp pieces from pve.

Some slots were, but for every expac from tbc up to wod, the easiest way to get a good starting set was honor. You can give me examples if i missed something, but that's what i remember. If you had a guild that could raid hc icc or get you shadowmourne, sure, you did it. For most, though, the most practical method way was to get starting honor gear and then work on conquest, all from pvp.

[Ange]

Also if you lose to 380 ilvl people with your mythic level gear, then it's an L2P issue.

I could point you to the arena leaderboard at the 2000-2400 bracket, half of it is not even 400 ilvl, but you clearly dont play the game, so it doesnt matter.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I could point you to the arena leaderboard at the 2000-2400 bracket, half of it is not even 400 ilvl, but you clearly dont play the game, so it doesnt matter.

Quickly glancing at a random selection of 20 people at the very bottom of the visible blizzard 3s ladder (2400 ish) and the lowest ilvl there is 442, but then again your other posts in this thread were equally useless so why stop now

[WraithKingOstarion]

Considering how long after launch they introduced anything at all PvP related, I struggle to understand your logic here.

Pvp has always been a mini-game within the larger game. that larger game being PvE based. PvP will has never and will never be a major focus.

[Butterland]

Bc: Pvp gear is too easily obtainable and fresh 70s can just get a set of wellfare gear to invalidate the actual game

That only happened because raiding wasn't as mainstream. It plays out completely differently in private servers. By the time Arenas launch (usually a month after opening the server), T4 is on farm by pugs. With very few exceptions, T4 > S1, T5 > S2, T6 > S3, Sunwell > S4. If anything, there's too much PvE gear in Arenas.

[Rinnegan2]

8.3 will bring us again to S1/S2 BfA where PVP loot will be needed for PVE players - the raid lacks 2min trinkets again. What ever you want to discuss here, you should expect a massive amount of discussion with 8.3, because the itemisation forces again 100% of the players to participate in the sub 5% minigame that is PVP.

wait a second ... so you are telling me PvE players will have to do PvP in order to be competitive in high end PvE? because that's exactly what PvP players have been doing for the past 2 years now.

[Nnyco]

I could point you to the arena leaderboard at the 2000-2400 bracket, half of it is not even 400 ilvl, but you clearly dont play the game, so it doesnt matter.

Press X for doubt.

[Very rare pepe]

PvP gearing will never be the same without a pvp stat like resilience or pvp power. Resilience was the best system we had IMO and since they removed it PvP gearing and PvP gear has lost it's flavour.

[Djuntas]

I honestly think Resilience gear (with vendors) was the best version of a pvp gear system there was.

It was the only time when you needed pvp gear, for pvp, that was obtained through pvp. Add in the win/loss reward cache and it wasn't hard to build that initial resilience, from which the gear progression was obvious and straightforward.

And the fact that resilience didn't count towards iLVL stat budgets, and you still had pvp gear that would be "okay" in pve, but not well itemized for it.

Maybe what I'd like to see more of is simply progression that is most beneficial to the content you're progressing in. PVP gear gets resilience back, maybe raid gear gets a new "determination" stat, M+ gear gets a new "frenzy" stat...idk. Thinking out loud here.

Agreed here. Make it come back.

I recently played some arena games...erhm actually I bought a boost, Im not into arena much (last time I played serious arena was back in TBC where I did get 2k rated 2v2) and wow...after like...idk 25 wins I only got 1 loot or some...at 1800 rated atm.

Also I sort of miss defense as a tank...Idk. I tanked Black Temple etc in TBC with my feral druid in mostly pvp gear. It was very strong. Resilence worked like defense for crit immune as tank.

[Teamrandom]

MOP system was much better as well with the PvP Power.
Do you remember that no one had PvE gear in PvP back then ? Not even the legendary cloak...

[arkanon]

Pvp has always been a mini-game within the larger game. that larger game being PvE based. PvP will has never and will never be a major focus.

Way to not respond to the point being raised AT ALL.

[Butterland]

Doesn't private servers remove the casual player element of the game though? If you choose to play a bc private server, I feel like you are quite knowledgable about BC pr default. Without casual players to act as filler in queues, you encounter what we're seeing in classic. Massive amounts of min/maxing all over the place to the point where the game isnt even playable in the same form as it used to be.

So while youre right, I dont think that translates to the live game.

TBC is not much more difficult than Classic. When they release it, people will be amazed at how easy the PvE content is.

[Ange]

wait a second ... so you are telling me PvE players will have to do PvP in order to be competitive in high end PvE? because that's exactly what PvP players have been doing for the past 2 years now.

PVP is just a minigame with miniscule participation. Cheesing PVP with TANKING-ITEMS is a problem, but it was hotfixed in 1-2 weeks each time, so having to do PVE was never a real point of PVP players.

Expect a lot of heat towards PVP gearing after 8.3:

# first M+ gets harder (+4.5 key levels in difficulty) and you will need to do a 19.5 Key for your weekly chest, PVP players are still going to get gear for the same rating as its pre 8.3

# BiS trinkets for all 2min classes from PVP ONLY

The easiest way to get gear that is very good and in some cases the best in the game will be from PVP in 8.3. The 95% wont really like this change and it will force blizzards hand for a hotfix/change that wont be pretty for PVP. 10 months till shadowlands is just a bit to long to keep the PVE players happy with the current 8.3 situation.

What ever you think is bad right now with PVP gear, expect some harsh nerfs to it after 8.3 and the blaming starts.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Cheesing PVP with TANKING-ITEMS is a problem, but it was hotfixed in 1-2 weeks each time, so having to do PVE was never a real point of PVP players.

Are we playing the same game?