How did pvp gearing get this bad?

[Amariw]

I disagree.

This is my current gear from just easy getting the low hanging fruits:



I would even wear more rival pieces with same ilvl, but the sockets from my m+ and mythic items made the decision.

Thats pretty balanced for me and I just cap my weekly in pvp and nothing more. The pvp items are the ones that came basicly for free with the least amount of playtime.

The first 2 season in BfA were ridiculous stupid. The highest ilvl and the best trinkets with high ilvl were seen on pvp players with just moderate rating. The amount of free pvp loot with above raid powerlevels were just stupid. It forced basicly everyone to do at least the weekly pvp chest and some 2min classes were forced to do pvp to get trinkets as there was no alternative in m+ or mythic raid.

Additionally some of the best Azerite combinations are only available from PVP, nothing from mythic raiding nor m+ vendor loot comes even close to this. Its stupid and forces pve players to do pvp just to get PVE azerite pieces that got zero ussage in pvp.

Even if we look at the current season you are wrong, but if we compare the whole bfa loot shittshow from pvp free epics, you are just trolling.

Im not trolling, but i also dont think pvp loot should be the best for pve. The rewards should be mostly separate and only good as a gap closer if you are say a m+10 farmer that wants to hop in pvp for the first time. Its exactly why some form of pvp stat or ilvl scaling was great, it kept the systems interchangable but mostly without influencing each other.

[Ange]

Im not trolling, but i also dont think pvp loot should be the best for pve.

PVP loot IS clearly the best for PVP. Try doing just a weekly cap without a solid amount of versatility.

PVP loot is clearly made for PVP and since many classes dont really stack versatility you have allways the advantage as a PVP only player, lets just ignore the horrible DH balance/itemisation they are basicly tank/pvp/pve/aoe/st in one single build/gear, its the META class for low rating/2v2 for a reason.

8.3 will bring us again to S1/S2 BfA where PVP loot will be needed for PVE players - the raid lacks 2min trinkets again. What ever you want to discuss here, you should expect a massive amount of discussion with 8.3, because the itemisation forces again 100% of the players to participate in the sub 5% minigame that is PVP.

[kamuimac]

For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve.

The time it takes to become reasonably geared (say 420-430) to not get squashed in bgs or arenas is also the longest its been unless you m+, and even then its not really fast.

The way to get good gear in pvp is now, again for the first time in wow, rating, which is retarded in a pvp enviornment that used to encourage a level playing field.

Who at blizzard possibly thought this was a good idea? Why? It boggles the mind and i hope do a 180 in shadowlands because in the course of a single expac they managed to wreck a well built pvp reward structure that remained satisfying for years.

the only reason people hate pvp gearing in BfA is that now it finally rewards skills instead of mindless bashing your head against arenas untill cap and recive participation trophy in form of gear equal to hc raiding.

if your raiting sucks your gear sucks too - like it should have always been.

[united]

Last expansion had templates, which meant PvP was about skill and not gear. Y’all told them to remove it, so you get what you get.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Last expansion had templates, which meant PvP was about skill and not gear. Y’all told them to remove it, so you get what you get.

Templates were trash, current BFA system is trash - If only we had 5 previous expansions with far better pvp gearing systems for them to draw inspiration from

[Amariw]

PVP loot IS clearly the best for PVP. Try doing just a weekly cap without a solid amount of versatility.

PVP loot is clearly made for PVP and since many classes dont really stack versatility you have allways the advantage as a PVP only player, lets just ignore the horrible DH balance/itemisation they are basicly tank/pvp/pve/aoe/st in one single build/gear, its the META class for low rating/2v2 for a reason.

8.3 will bring us again to S1/S2 BfA where PVP loot will be needed for PVE players - the raid lacks 2min trinkets again. What ever you want to discuss here, you should expect a massive amount of discussion with 8.3, because the itemisation forces again 100% of the players to participate in the sub 5% minigame that is PVP.

You have a point about versatility, but it isn't nearly as meaningful as resilience or pvp only itemlvl scaling were, because its not nearly as overbudgeted. And even considering this, 430-440 gear from m+10 is much easier to acquire than versatility gear of 420+ ilvl If we assume for sake of discussion versatility items are worth 10 ilvls more in pvp (which i doubt). Especially if you're only pvping and nazjataring and thus can't easily get some high gear to start with. The only thing that's really "overbudgeted" is pvp azerite traits, which often have a "in pvp this trait rocks more" function that makes it the best pick, but it doesn't affect your overall character power as much as an entire overbudgeted gear set.

As for pvp gear being best for pve, i don't know if you're right but like i said before, thats as big an issue as the opposite problem and something that can easily repeat itself each new tier and each new expac until they introduce some meaningful mechanic that makes pvp gear better ONLY for pvp, and worse for pve, *which they already had done in the past*.

the only reason people hate pvp gearing in BfA is that now it finally rewards skills instead of mindless bashing your head against arenas untill cap and recive participation trophy in form of gear equal to hc raiding.

if your raiting sucks your gear sucks too - like it should have always been.

I don't really know if we can find common grounds, but i'll try. In pvp, you compete against other players, not an AI. Why would you want to bar the entrance of skilled players that may not have good enough groups to get the best gear, especially when m+10, not the hardest of difficulties, still gives equilavent rewards to pvers without a shred of pvp knowledge. Its fine to give the pinnacle of pvpers some reward for it - an earlier access to gear (like the conquest farm model in tbc-wod), prestigious mounts/cosmetics, even a unique and superior weapon. But why would you want a significant power difference between ranks? Isn't that the opposite of skill, which encourages the low ranked players to never surmount the disadvantage even if they otherwise could? I'm not trying to troll but this is an honest question: Are you afraid for your title if you need to compete with equal gear?

Templates were trash, current BFA system is trash - If only we had 5 previous expansions with far better pvp gearing systems for them to draw inspiration from

I didn't mind legion templates, they had their issue (still encouraged pvpers to pve if they wanted power gains, though luckily it was far less meaningful power gains. Also they wrecked the mmo concept of feeling rewarded), but at least you could reasonably expect to just pvp and win rating if you're good. But i mostly agree, the previous system, especially wod-mop with scaling gear, was so much better. I think m+ gear has gotten so intrusive for raiders and pvpers it might be time to make it scale higher then 425 if you're inside a m+ dungeon (in this tier's standards), not in raids or pvp, but that's a separate issue.

Editing for clarification: The different quotes are from different people, just wanted to respond in one post.

[Steelangel]

Casual players now have almost no reason to do PvP. The gear they can get from casual PvP utterly sucks, compared to what they can get from casual PvE.

Casual players never had a reason to do PvP when it was roflstomp no-lifers in UberPvP gear who would dominate everyone while screaming things like “get good, scrub”.

PvP will only be fun when there is zero gear dependence, everyone gets the same kit, macros and addons are banned and actual skill is tested.

[Amariw]

Casual players never had a reason to do PvP when it was roflstomp no-lifers in UberPvP gear who would dominate everyone while screaming things like “get good, scrub”.

PvP will only be fun when there is zero gear dependence, everyone gets the same kit, macros and addons are banned and actual skill is tested.

That used to be the case. In expacs where gear matter, it was super easy to get a great set of it simply by farming honor in bgs, and it was better than mythic raiding gear for pvp alone. It kept some reward structure, but it was fairly quick and easy to get into. No idea why they changed it.

[Steelangel]

That used to be the case. In expacs where gear matter, it was super easy to get a great set of it simply by farming honor in bgs, and it was better than mythic raiding gear for pvp alone. It kept some reward structure, but it was fairly quick and easy to get into. No idea why they changed it.

As an Alliance player, it was not “quick” and “easy” to get into, as “farming” BGs meant losing dozens of times, getting no upgrades just to be beaten down harder by Horde groups who did get upgrades.

PvP gearing like that was terrible, inefficient and demoralizing.

[Kralljin]

PvP will only be fun when there is zero gear dependence, everyone gets the same kit, macros and addons are banned and actual skill is tested.

And those people that are ahead of you now, will probably still beat you.

If you refuse to use these tools, that's your decision, but don't think that having macros and addons (which give you nothing but information) turns a bad player into a good one, or the lack of these tools turn a good player into a bad one.

[dacoolist]

As an Alliance player, it was not “quick” and “easy” to get into, as “farming” BGs meant losing dozens of times, getting no upgrades just to be beaten down harder by Horde groups who did get upgrades.

PvP gearing like that was terrible, inefficient and demoralizing.

I need you to come to the darkside, we need more good people to join the Mighty Horde <3

On Topic: I also do a M+10 per week for my pvp gear, I'm a big time slacker so however I can get the best gear with the littlest amount of effort as HUMANLY possible: that's what I do fam

[Nerovar]

Last expansion had templates, which meant PvP was about skill and not gear. Y’all told them to remove it, so you get what you get.

What a weasily disingenuous statement. The PvP community pretty unanimously told them to remove templates and bring back PvP gear. They only removed templates without adjusting the reward system. That's the reason why it's fucked in its current state. Jesus Christ.

[stenbumling89]

They forgot about it.

[dacoolist]

What a weasily disingenuous statement. The PvP community pretty unanimously told them to remove templates and bring back PvP gear. They only removed templates without adjusting the reward system. That's the reason why it's fucked in its current state. Jesus Christ.

I think the template situation wasn't too bad just because it made it more balanced, you could join NAKED and have only a LITTLE less % than the best top end RANK JUAN GLADS in the same bg.. aka - you could actually BEAT them (even though most of us likely cant because they are WAY better if they are rank one glads..)

The reason I replied though: The most fun I've ever had in PVP was during one of the worst xpacs: WoD - the reason WoD was so good was the the gear came from vendors+a few other methods - things mattered - BUT.. pvp gear was almost always the ultimate best for PVP.. PVE gear was almost always the ultimate best for PVE - why would blizz change that setup? People didn't mind it back then, but they destroyed the carrot on the stick in Legion.. then changed stuff back for BfA but still goofed because they don't have vendors and I can scrubknight my dumbass through a 10M+ a week and get 440-455 gear without even trying vs to do that in PVP I literally have to be a PVP god

[Low Hanging Fruit]

No, they wanted PvE gear to be also good in PvP - not the other way around. Look at the way Legion handled PvP gear. It was hard as fuck to actually get decent gear and even if you got your pieces 90% of the items had versatility. What's that? Your class doesn't need versatility in PvE? Tough luck. Now go grind some M+, kiddo.

I guess I should have worded it they wanted them both to be useful in each others. Also, not in a min/max fashion. Blizzard has this issue in thinking that people won't be doing that in most cases but that is just how gaming these days works.

[Ange]

The PvP community pretty unanimously told them to remove templates and bring back PvP gear. They only removed templates without adjusting the reward system.

Most abilitys got pve and pvp treatment, nothing changed.

Some outliers exists, look at 2v2 arena META and you can guess what classes got away with some pve=pvp abilitys but you can just join a random 2v2 and see for yourself - its not hard to get from the numbers alone.

The pvp gearsystem was horrible, you had tanky specs running around in resilience heavy gear/gems while burst comps could even get much worse. Balance was bad without pvp gear and could get really cheesy up to broken in stacked gear. Single tuned abilitys and spells make a much better experience.

The only thing people miss are the ROFL-SWIFTY-MACRO-ONE-SHOT with gear/cd-spam advantage that required zero skill.

Otherwise the game was never better for low geared players in PVP. People run around above 2k with 380 gear and 1 green essence and are farming cap-mythic-raiders 24/7. This whole topic is a 180° turn to whats really happening in the game and like I said when people realise that they have to do PVP AGAIN in 8.3 the forum will be spammed all day long with the PVP hate.

[gd8]

it's easy as hell to get to the 420-430 range you dont even have to do any competitive content. there's more ways of getting to a decent gear level than there have ever been

[arkanon]

because WoW at its core is a PvE game and it has taken blizzard over 10 years to realize this. with every expansion came major changes to PvP as a concept inside the primary game, and with every expansion they come back to this realization.

Considering how long after launch they introduced anything at all PvP related, I struggle to understand your logic here.

[Schattenlied]

But if the pvp gear is a joke, and they have to grind gear for months like everyone else, then they stay subbed like everyone else.

Or they get bored of the grind and unsub in 1-2 months anyways because of how absolutely trash WoW's PvP is right now.


Blizzard's problem is they can't seem to make the gameplay fun enough to not require a grind to retain players... The grind is a crutch, and they are leaning on it hard.

[Nerovar]

Most abilitys got pve and pvp treatment, nothing changed.

Some outliers exists, look at 2v2 arena META and you can guess what classes got away with some pve=pvp abilitys but you can just join a random 2v2 and see for yourself - its not hard to get from the numbers alone.

The pvp gearsystem was horrible, you had tanky specs running around in resilience heavy gear/gems while burst comps could even get much worse. Balance was bad without pvp gear and could get really cheesy up to broken in stacked gear. Single tuned abilitys and spells make a much better experience.

The only thing people miss are the ROFL-SWIFTY-MACRO-ONE-SHOT with gear/cd-spam advantage that required zero skill.

Otherwise the game was never better for low geared players in PVP. People run around above 2k with 380 gear and 1 green essence and are farming cap-mythic-raiders 24/7. This whole topic is a 180° turn to whats really happening in the game and like I said when people realise that they have to do PVP AGAIN in 8.3 the forum will be spammed all day long with the PVP hate.

I don't understand what you're trying to say and how it relates to my comment. PvP rewards are a mess and there was no resilience on the last iteration of PvP gear we had (WoD) which worked pretty much perfectly in accomplishing what it was supposed to do (which is creating a separate reward structure that provides BiS items for its respective content).

Also if you lose to 380 ilvl people with your mythic level gear, then it's an L2P issue.