NDAA act, signed by Trump, stops completion Nord Stream 2 pipeline (GER/RUS)

[jeezusisacasual]

STRATFOR predicted that Russia’s slow motion collapse would become a leading geopolitical concern in the 2020s... like... 10 years ago. Their predictions for the 2010s were very much on the mark too and largely wrong in terms of a matter of degrees.

But then again this stuff isn’t too surprising for people who look at the world dispassionately. In retrospect it’s kind of silly to think that the Cold War got wrapped up in like 5 years when previously the aftershocks of fallen empires have toppled for decades.

To put it rather straight forward Luis, ‘the Russian empire’, of which the USSR was just a form (and the Russian Federation another) isn’t quite done falling. It is in a plateau of stability, like the romans byzantines, Persians, Chinese and ottomans.

I agree its more akin to frying an egg with the burner set to 1, it will happen in time just let it mature a bit.

[Blade Wolf]

^Shit white people say.
[Infraction]

Ah yes, empty threats. So far China hasn't colonised an entire continent, hasn't destroyed the Middle East and hasn't overthrown democracies all around the world.

Didn't the US support 72% of the dictators in the world? So please, tell me who is the anti-democratic force in this world.

Nah China is completely cool, they are just committing their own version of the holocaust within their borders right this very moment.

[Donatello Trumpi]

Trump doesn’t actually read the things he signs. Like every. Watching him mouth out the name of the bill he is about to sign like a toddler is endlessly amusing.

Except he called it out 1 year ago as I previously posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkt...rr_watch_on_yt



Its easier for you to say something absolutely ignorant like "Trump doesnt read the things he signs" instead of admitting your russian collusion was bullshit.

[Skroe]

Except he called it out 1 year ago as I previously posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkt...rr_watch_on_yt



Its easier for you to say something absolutely ignorant like "Trump doesnt read the things he signs" instead of admitting your russian collusion was bullshit.

There is a 435 page report you didn’t read (I did) that says your wrong.

It’s fine though. Thanks to Nancy Pelosi, leader of freedom loving Americans, the first thing children will learn about your Russia patsy President for the next 100 years is that he’s an election cheat who got caught. It’s the only legacy that he is going to have. It is the only thing that matters.

This has been year of #vindication. I like your sig meme. I think the Democratic National Committee like the $8000 donation I gave them Impeachmas morning too.

Merry Christmas! Looking forward to 2020!

[Donatello Trumpi]

To put it rather straight forward Luis, ‘the Russian empire’, of which the USSR was just a form (and the Russian Federation another) isn’t quite done falling. It is in a plateau of stability, like the romans byzantines, Persians, Chinese and ottomans.

Russia is super weak and falling
BUT THEY ARE SUPER DANGEROUS FOR OUR DEMOCRACY
but russias military is outdated and irrelevant and heading towards a bankruptcy
BUT PUTIN THE EVIL DICTATOR IS THE MASTERMIND AND ATTACKING THE WESTERN WORLD WITH HIS DAILY CYBER ATTACKS
but the effects are negligible as seen with the 10k facebook ads and our strong intelligent agencies diverted their plans
BUT OMG PUTEN.....



Is russia now super weak and failing and irrelevant or super dangerous and a threat or what is it?
Are your intelligence agencies now the most capable in the world and blocked dangerous russian interference or did they get outplayed hard with 1/100th of the budget by russian misinformation campaigns?


Your tone changes like the weather and seems almost shizophrenic.

[Skroe]

Russia is super weak and falling
BUT THEY ARE SUPER DANGEROUS FOR OUR DEMOCRACY
but russias military is outdated and irrelevant and heading towards a bankruptcy
BUT PUTIN THE EVIL DICTATOR IS THE MASTERMIND AND ATTACKING THE WESTERN WORLD WITH HIS DAILY CYBER ATTACKS
but the effects are negligible as seen with the 10k facebook ads and our strong intelligent agencies diverted their plans
BUT OMG PUTEN.....



Is russia now super weak and failing and irrelevant or super dangerous and a threat or what is it?
Are your intelligence agencies now the most capable in the world and blocked dangerous russian interference or did they get outplayed hard with 1/100th of the budget by russian misinformation campaigns?


Your tone changes like the weather and seems almost shizophrenic.

Merry Christmas. I already got my two presents from a Mrs. Pelosi.



I want you to picture that poor woman in your dog. That’s me right now, but laughing to the sky about how we’ve raped Trumps so-called legacy.


As to the details of your post, they are entirely consistent. Russia simply gets more dangerous as its internal situation worsens and it gets weaker. It’s the whole wounded animal approach to security policy. This has been discussed at length. A confident Russia that is secure with its future would not have to do a Ukraine or attacks on Europe and America. A Russia that is failing does those things in order to stay competitive (in its eyes) with the US and EU.

[caervek]

I thought trump was allied with russia!

Russia are the main beneficiary of this.

It sounds crazy as it's hurting their investment and income but the benefits at the geopolitical and strategic level more than off set it. Hell the projects only costing them $9bn (my government are blowing triple that on a rail link 1/4 the length lol) and Trumps incompetence just drove a colossal wedge between US/EU relations, the German foreign minister has even labelled it as direct interference in the autonomous decisions of the EU. An EU representative has officially condemned the US for the imposition of sanctions against EU companies conducting legitimate business.

This is serious ****, there's even talk going on in the EU about applying climate sanctions to the USA's fracking based gas exports in response, thankfully cooler heads are prevailing ATM and they seem to be going down the diplomacy route to try and make the USA see sense.

[Different Strokes]

Merry Christmas. I already got my two presents from a Mrs. Pelosi.



I want you to picture that poor woman in your dog. That’s me right now, but laughing to the sky about how we’ve raped Trumps so-called legacy.


As to the details of your post, they are entirely consistent. Russia simply gets more dangerous as its internal situation worsens and it gets weaker. It’s the whole wounded animal approach to security policy. This has been discussed at length. A confident Russia that is secure with its future would not have to do a Ukraine or attacks on Europe and America. A Russia that is failing does those things in order to stay competitive (in its eyes) with the US and EU.

Remember, cornered animals show their teeth and growl the most. Russia is making a lot of noise because it is trapped and failing, and even trapped animals can pose risks to those around them.

I see there are still some honorable conservatives on these forums, Skroe. There are a growing number of us conservative former Republicans who have abandoned our party due to lawlessness and insanity of Trump.

[Skroe]

Remember, cornered animals show their teeth and growl the most. Russia is making a lot of noise because it is trapped and failing, and even trapped animals can pose risks to those around them.

I see there are still some honorable conservatives on these forums, Skroe. There are a growing number of us conservative former Republicans who have abandoned our party due to lawlessness and insanity of Trump.

I appreciate the compliment but, no offense, I’m going to wait and see with you before ascribing sincerity to what you’re saying. I never mentioned in any of the posts since you created your account my conservativism (in fact I’m traveling and posting from my phone which means limited posting), which means you are familiar with the terrain here despite being “new”. New accounts seldom dive into OT to post in good faith. They’re almost always old faces trying new things.

So thanks for the compliment again, but we’ll have to wait and see before we shake hands. And if I end up being wildly off base and over suspicious, well, we can just chalk that up to another victory for the manner in which this place is run, which has created such an environment where new people are distrusted.

[Jehct]

Trump signed the bill on Friday. Few days before, Ted Cruz wrote a letter threatening Allseas, the swiss company that russia hired to build the pipeline, with "catastrophic consqeuences" (basically revoking their workers US visa and seizing all company assets in the US among other things) if Allseas continues to work for even 1 day after the bill was signed.

This means that the US is de facto dictating germany and europes energy supply.

Very interesting. Do you agree with this?

Here is how Ted Cruz explains it:
https://youtu.be/kSVclJD5wdY?t=392

I hate how the US wants to stop a pipeline for oil and helping stop the use of it. FASCISTS!!

[Different Strokes]

I appreciate the compliment but, no offense, I’m going to wait and see with you before ascribing sincerity to what you’re saying. I never mentioned in any of the posts since you created your account my conservativism (in fact I’m traveling and posting from my phone which means limited posting), which means you are familiar with the terrain here despite being “new”. New accounts seldom dive into OT to post in good faith. They’re almost always old faces trying new things.

So thanks for the compliment again, but we’ll have to wait and see before we shake hands. And if I end up being wildly off base and over suspicious, well, we can just chalk that up to another victory for the manner in which this place is run, which has created such an environment where new people are distrusted.

I'm a lurker of about a year who finally made an account. Seeing your post history is easy enough as well.

For a bit about me, I'm former service member, now in the private sector. I'm sickened by this administration and what it has done to the conservative brand. Everywhere I go, my friends, my family, social media, the people I used to call friends and family have now become insincere trolls or sincere racist assholes. It's always a relief to find conservatives who have not lost their marbles to this crazy administration. I hold the constitution above any one person like Trump.

The US needs to cherish its allies, and not take them for granted.

[Ihavewaffles]

This is a farce, you don't start threaten with "big hammer" against someone when they are at the finish line, you could have done this looong ago, doing this now is admitting you never thought stopping north stream 2 was viable.
This is just pretense to say, "hey, we tried!"

Gazprom can go ahead n finish the last part of the pipeline, US knows this, this just trying to pretend US tried to put up a fight.
US doesn't want to piss off the company that layed the pipes, so waited until almost the very end.

The timing gives all of this away

[Donatello Trumpi]

Merry Christmas. I already got my two presents from a Mrs. Pelosi.

Merry Christmas to you, my favourite Clinton-munchkin, too

[Eviscero]

Except he called it out 1 year ago as I previously posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkt...rr_watch_on_yt



Its easier for you to say something absolutely ignorant like "Trump doesnt read the things he signs" instead of admitting your russian collusion was bullshit.

It's hilarious that you think Trump signing some bill that isn't in Russia's interest exonerates him. He literally invited illegal Russian interference on television, consistently denies their involvement in the proven systemic interference campaign, and has admitted he would welcome interference in the future. These are facts, on video, true and undeniable. You don't have to call it collusion or coordination or conspiracy, but the above happened and continues to happen. He acts purely out of his self interest and in defense of his fragile ego. Ask how his choice to sign this bill bolsters himself and you'll find out why he did it. Hint: it's not because he's "tough on Russia".

[Guildenstern]

I thought this forum's leftist majority got Trump figured for a Russian agent. Uh-oh, that can't be good for an already shaky credibility of liberals and their "media".

[Guildenstern]

Read the rest of the thread if you really care about the truth.

Yes, because I trust MMO-C users to know their elbow from the arse and tell me what is true

[Guildenstern]

Why even bother commenting then?

To get the latest "educated" opinion out of people like you, obviously.

Also, he is not tangerine, it's all because of energy-efficient light bulbs.

[Polyxo]

No, being US bitch is strategic stupidity at a grand scale. US is the bad guy in whole situation, not Russia. US doesn't care about EU well being, US cares only about making profit.

Russia has been supplying EU with gas for long time. This pipeline changes nothing, except for making price of gas go down. US can't compete fairly, so they use lies and intimidation to push their overpriced gas.

Russia never used gas supply as political leverage. Never closed supply for political reasons.

Before someone mentions "but Ukraine!!!11111eleventy!!!", Ukraine supply was only cut when Ukraine failed to pay their bills repeatedly. It was never done for politics. Not only Ukraine failed to pay their bill, they had much smaller bill because they were on "friends" rate and at the same time they were siphoning gas that was going through Ukraine to Europe. Before saying "Russia bad!!!", use your brain and think: would US cut gas supply to country that repeatedly fails to pay their bill and steals transit gas? Of course US would. Any country would. New pipeline's purpose is to avoid Ukraine, a known thief and liar and now US bitch.

Whole thing is about US trying to make profit from who they call allies, using lies and intimidation to achieve it. Typical US bully behaviour. Nobody should want "ally" like that.

I think a lot on the Trump side of things kind of live in a cartoon world where Putin has a lever next to his desk that cuts off all gas flowing to Europe, and the continent just immediately turns to ice.

[Deletedaccount1]

Washington has always been afraid of Berlin-Moscow type cooperations and alliances.

It's cute though, the USA being jealous of other superpowers courting it's EU mistress. Flattering even.

Putin is probably going to tell Trump to get back in line though. Trump is called "Russia's Bitch / Our Agent" on a daily basis in russian mainstream media for a reason.

There are no other superpowers.

[Ihavewaffles]

No, being US bitch is strategic stupidity at a grand scale. US is the bad guy in whole situation, not Russia. US doesn't care about EU well being, US cares only about making profit.

Russia has been supplying EU with gas for long time. This pipeline changes nothing, except for making price of gas go down. US can't compete fairly, so they use lies and intimidation to push their overpriced gas.

Russia never used gas supply as political leverage. Never closed supply for political reasons.

Before someone mentions "but Ukraine!!!11111eleventy!!!", Ukraine supply was only cut when Ukraine failed to pay their bills repeatedly. It was never done for politics. Not only Ukraine failed to pay their bill, they had much smaller bill because they were on "friends" rate and at the same time they were siphoning gas that was going through Ukraine to Europe. Before saying "Russia bad!!!", use your brain and think: would US cut gas supply to country that repeatedly fails to pay their bill and steals transit gas? Of course US would. Any country would. New pipeline's purpose is to avoid Ukraine, a known thief and liar and now US bitch.

Whole thing is about US trying to make profit from who they call allies, using lies and intimidation to achieve it. Typical US bully behaviour. Nobody should want "ally" like that.

Germany acts all innocent, but when South Stream was gonna go ahead, they were hand in hand with the US to crush those plans, cuz they didn't benefit Germany..



Russia has a ship in the far east that will set sail n complete the pipeline, it will just take a little longer for this whole project to happen, but at this point with the new pipeline complete with China and more coming, the EU market is not as important as before and more asian countries want to get the gas, it wouldn't be a long-term loss for Russia to not expand further to the EU. In the long run instead, yes, EU would loose, with the way higher priced US liquified gas that they call "freedom gas" well, more like "extortion gas"..

I wouldn't be surprised at all that germany goes ahead n tries together with the US to stop turkstream pipe going to south-east europe to central europe. It's no benefit to germany. But in this case, I want that particular project to end, because it replaces one un-reliable country, Ukraine, with a far worse one, Turkey or should I say sultan Erdogan n his lunatic political movement...there is no way he won't try to turn off the gas should the pipeline be built if the EU doesn't agree to another ransom/threat which in practise means the EU in total ends up paying more than they would have if the pipeline would have gone through a normal country instead..

Erdogan makes threats without pipeline, with one he gains even more leverage than he has now, he is the bad guy, he has not Europe's best interest at heart.

In Hungary, Erdogan threatens to 'open the gates' for millions of refugees fleeing to Europe.

NOV 8, 2019
AFP-JIJI

BUDAPEST – Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on a visit to EU member Hungary repeated his threat Thursday to “open the gates” for millions of refugees eager to flee to Europe unless more international support was provided.

Erdogan held talks with Hungarian nationalist Prime Minister Viktor Orban — a rare EU ally — in Budapest where several hundred people demonstrated over Ankara’s deadly military offensive in Syria, with placards calling the Turkish leader a “genocidal dictator.

Ankara launched the military operation last month to push Syrian Kurdish forces back from its border and create a “safe zone” to take in some of the 3.6 million Syrian refugees currently in Turkey.

Erdogan has called on EU countries to provide more financial support for his plan to create the “safe zone.

“Whether or not support comes, we will continue to host our guests, but only up to a point,” Erdogan said at a news conference alongside Orban.

“If we see that this does not work, just like I said before, we will have no option left but to open the gates. If we open the gates, it is obvious where they will go,” Erdogan added.

Orban, an anti-immigration figurehead for nationalists in Europe and beyond, said Hungary stood ready to help Turkey however it could to create the “safe zone.

“Without Turkey, you cannot stop migration headed for Europe. … As a consequence of this, Hungary is a strategic partner of Turkey in security and migration questions,” he said.

“We have to do everything to avoid masses of migrants arriving at Hungary’s southern border, and for that we need Turkey’s help.”

Erdogan’s visit comes just a week after Orban hosted Russian President Vladimir Putin, stoking concerns in the European Union that the self-styled “illiberal” Hungarian is cozying up to autocrats.

Speaking alongside Putin, also a regular visitor to the EU and NATO member state, Orban defended his foreign policy of “eastern opening,” saying Hungary was in a “Berlin-Moscow-Istanbul triangle.”

Accusing his Western critics of turning a blind eye to their own countries’ trade and political engagements with Eastern countries, Orban has repeatedly defended Ankara.

Hungary delayed an EU resolution condemning Turkey’s action, with Orban insisting that the offensive was in “Hungary’s national interest” because it would help stop refugees coming to the EU.

At a meeting in Kazakhstan last month, Erdogan personally thanked Orban for his “support” for Ankara’s Syrian operation.

Orban was also one of the few European leaders to attend Erdogan’s July 2018 inauguration ceremony for his second term in office, while the Turkish leader visited Hungary in October last year.

“(Orban’s) Turkey policy fits in with his strategy toward the east, trying to give political favours for economic ones,” Daniel Bartha, director of the think tank Centre for Euro-Atlantic Integration and Democracy, told AFP.

Orban said Thursday that Hungary would be able to get natural gas from the TurkStream pipeline — which will supply Russian gas to Turkey via the Black Sea — by the end of 2021.

Hungary’s partly state-owned energy giant, MOL, also bought last week a stake in the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline that transports crude oil to the Mediterranean through Turkey.

The Hungarian army also plans to buy Turkish armored vehicles, according to media reports, while a Budapest-based Turkish business magnate is close to both Orban’s family and to Erdogan.

“The Hungarian government appears to perceive Turkey as an emerging, key geopolitical player, not only in Syria but also in southeastern Europe and the broader Middle East,” said Daniel Hegedus, an analyst with the German Marshall Fund of the United States.

“It seems ready to accept significant conflicts within the EU to please Ankara, and acts according to the interests of Turkey and Russia rather than the Western alliances Budapest belongs to,” Hegedus told AFP.

Turkey Isn't Leaving NATO, But It May Be Breaking With the West.

December 19, 2019

(Bloomberg) — Just weeks after a NATO summit brushed internal disputes under the carpet, renewed sparring between the U.S. and Turkey points to longer term risks to the alliance.U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper said this week that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would have to discuss what to do about Turkey’s lack of commitment should Ankara carry through with a threat to block American access to military bases.

Officials at NATO’s headquarters in Brussels say that nobody is yet talking about the base closure threat, let alone Turkey’s potential expulsion from the alliance. Even so, Esper’s exchange with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has reignited fears that the Western alliance could be on track for a showdown with Turkey – further down the line.

All sides recognize that “keeping Turkey in NATO is in everybody’s interest,” former NATO Deputy Secretary General Alexander Vershbow said in a phone interview. That’s despite real frustrations in Ankara over NATO’s perceived failures to take Turkish security concerns seriously, and within the alliance over Erdogan’s provocative purchase of a Russian S-400 air-defense system.

There is no mechanism in NATO’s founding treaty to allow the expulsion of a member against its will in any case, according to Vershbow, now a distinguished fellow at the Atlantic Council, a Washington think tank.All of which helps explain why the 29-nation alliance smoothed over equally sharp differences between Turkey and France at the NATO leaders’ meeting in London on Dec. 3-4.

That doesn’t mean those tensions have disappeared: European Union leaders discussed the prickly state of relations with Turkey last week. But the options look limited.

“Nobody’s talking about arms exports sanctions anymore,” Bulgaria’s Prime Minister Boyko Borissov said at the summit, referring to sanctions the EU imposed on Turkey in October after Erdogan sent troops into Syria. Borissov cited the need to keep alive a deal under which Erdogan has stemmed the flow of refugees from Syria and elsewhere to the EU.

On Monday, Erdogan threatened to close two bases if the U.S. Congress adopts into law a sanctions bill penalizing Turkish leaders, energy companies and banks involved in supporting his Syria operation.

The threat does not appear to indicate any willingness on Erdogan’s part to break with NATO, but rather to use the alliance as leverage in a bilateral dispute with Washington.Neither of the facilities in southeastern Turkey that Erdogan named — Incirlik air field and the radar installation at Kurecik — are NATO bases. He did not threaten to close the alliance’s Land Command Headquarters, on Turkey’s Aegean coast.Incirlik and Kurecik are Turkish-controlled bases that the U.S. has agreement to use, subject to mission-specific permissions from the Turkish parliament. Approvals to use Incirlik for bombing campaigns in Iraq and Syria have been denied often enough that many U.S. combat aircraft have already been transferred to Jordan and the Gulf.

Turkish Control

Though important in the past, Incirlik now acts as a “glorified storage depot” for U.S. tactical nuclear weapons and transfer hub for deployments to Afghanistan, according to Aaron Stein, director of the Middle East program at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, in Washington. Both functions could be moved elsewhere.

Blocking U.S. personnel from Kurecik would have more practical implications for the alliance, because it hosts a U.S.-operated but NATO-critical radar installation that’s positioned to detect any potential ballistic missile launch from Iran. No other NATO member can offer as effective a location.More important than either base, however, is what Erdogan’s willingness to play chicken shows, according to Stein: a hardening assessment that while Turkey’s military ties to the U.S. and NATO are desirable, they are no longer essential.Ultimately, Erdogan may be forced to choose whether to back down or carry through his threat to close bases, setting off a new round of retaliations.Turkey, which has NATO’s second-biggest army after the U.S., has said it will turn on its S-400 system in April. It’s also pushing territorial claims in the Mediterranean to thwart a U.S.-backed natural-gas pipeline from off-shore Israeli and Cypriot fields to Europe, via Greece. Further escalation on either of these issues could raise pressure on Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell to bring the sanctions bill to the Senate floor for a vote, despite his current reluctance.Turkey has clashed with the U.S. and Europe over issues at least as serious as these before, including its 1974 invasion of northern Cyprus. But the Turkey of 2019 is no longer as dependent on Western financial aid or arms imports, and is carving out a more autonomous role often in conflict with U.S. and European policies.”For five years now, people in Washington have made the same argument that the Turks won’t really buy the S-400s, or that they won’t really invade Syria — but then they do,” said Stein. “We may well get through this and there may be bluster, but there is a trend and I see no evidence that Erdogan wants to reverse that trend.”