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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Well, I think after blizzard made the blood elves go horde, they then went back and recast the history in a way that made the elves seem minimally interested or connected to the humans and thus alliance. [I said think because this is just a suspicion]

    Would this be the case if it was alliance high elves that were playable? I wonder, and I must fairly also ask myself if it would have mattered to in that scenario as the elves would now supposedly be fully on board.

    The Gilneans as worgen could have easily joined the forsaken in my opnion given how things were left after WC2, i know they brought int hte undead fighting, but since Sylvanas is opposed to the scourge, and Gilneans didn't like the alliance, worgen on the horde was a possibility I feel only went alliance to give alliance a more monster looking race.

    Anyway, Warcraft is not LotR, elves, even high elves aren't benevolent, (well night elves are, which is an interesting twist), high elves are selfish, isolationists, and don't like being involved with anyone. Anasterian's token force epitomises this. Funny, the night elf isolation has totally different motivations.

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    You gotta love Alleria here. to be fair, there isn't any instance in her appearance that she hasn't been heroic and admirable.

    I don't understand the hate.. except for partisan hate. Her peole arrognatly under-estimate the threat, but she gets it spot on, with a level of foresight you would expect of her race, how is this chick not the most succesful and most loved of the Windrunner sisters?

    Boner for undead? Hatred by horde fans cos she stuck with the alliance? Which I never found controversial - i would have understood if she joined the horde or if she stayed with the alliance. Her role in Legion was nothinghosrt of heroic, admirable and outstanding. Whe the ehtereeal attacked the sunwell, she did everything shecould to stop it.

    I don't understand why people would have a boner for Sylvanas over Alleria. The returned Alleria is incredible and it's nice to have a great Thalassian hero.

    Imo, the only reason she isn't super popular is because blizzard writing is holding her back, if they continue wtih her in this vein, but gave her the level of exposure/involvement they give Sylvanas, she would be eclipse Sylvanas in popularity.

    Sadly, I think that won't happen, and I also think its intentional. They wrote her admirable because of her status and fondness, but theyw on't make her involved.. and I am beginning to think that's not only because of the huge boner for her the creative leads have (it's thes ame people who write up Alleria). This is all speculation, but I highly suspect Alliance characters are not allowed to be too popular because nothing blizzard has done since legion 7.3.5 leads me to believe they have changed their horde development stance and priority over alliance, and are still locked into their partisan factioned concept for the game - which demands a horde priorty based on the initial classic reviews. Which in other words is saying, if you're alliance you're not going to be popular.
    Because many blood elf fanboys are salty they are not getting their own Windrunner waifu, even though it was obvious that Alleria would not join the Horde. One of her major character traits is her great hatred for the orcs, especially after the death of her little brother, which represent a tragic turning point in her life.

    Also some people think her void powers are an asspull when she has been training for 500 years to control them and we literally see the final part of that training in Legion.

    However, even if she's not the most popular Windrunner, she's most likely the least hated as well. Vereesa is hated because of the Purge of Dalaran, Sylvanas is hated for obvious reasons, but Alleria hasn't done anything that warrants hatred from more than just the diehard blood elf fanboys.
    "I can't stay behind. Don't ask me to. I stayed behind the last time. I won't watch someone I love go to his death while I..."

    Alleria fan.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Because many blood elf fanboys are salty they are not getting their own Windrunner waifu, even though it was obvious that Alleria would not join the Horde. One of her major character traits is her great hatred for the orcs, especially after the death of her little brother, which represent a tragic turning point in her life.

    Also some people think her void powers are an asspull when she has been training for 500 years to control them and we literally see the final part of that training in Legion.

    However, even if she's not the most popular Windrunner, she's most likely the least hated as well. Vereesa is hated because of the Purge of Dalaran, Sylvanas is hated for obvious reasons, but Alleria hasn't done anything that warrants hatred from more than just the diehard blood elf fanboys.
    This is my main problem with this character. She hasn't done anything that warrants any type of emotional reaction. Same goes for Vereesa. The vast majority of Warcraft's playerbase don't even know who she is.

    They're boring, Cliche, Waifus.

    Like her character or not, at least Sylvanas HAS a personality.

    Also, her void powers is 100% an asspull or they would have been referenced SOMEWHERE before.
    Compared to Sylvanas' mysterious power up which we gradually see in-game/cinematics.

    I don't dislike the idea of Alleria. I just think she is poorly written. Barely written.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Zora-Prime View Post
    This is my main problem with this character. She hasn't done anything that warrants any type of emotional reaction. Same goes for Vereesa. The vast majority of Warcraft's playerbase don't even know who she is.

    They're boring, Cliche, Waifus.

    Like her character or not, at least Sylvanas HAS a personality.

    Also, her void powers is 100% an asspull or they would have been referenced SOMEWHERE before.
    Compared to Sylvanas' mysterious power up which we gradually see in-game/cinematics.

    I don't dislike the idea of Alleria. I just think she is poorly written. Barely written.
    You don't know if the vast majority of WoW's playerbase doesn't know her. Especially when she was a highly anticiapted character with many theories surrounding her whereabouts, and Blizzard even updated the game loading tips thrice to build that up. Same with Turalyon.

    Also Alleria has a personality, you just ignore it because you're biased. She's resourceful and pragmatic and is willing to master the void even though it was the void that came to her through an accident. She wants to use the void to protect Quel'thalas and believes that the Alliance is where Quel'thalas belongs. She harbors a deep hatred towards the orcs and their Horde because they ravaged through Quel'thalas and even killed her little brother, but she is not consumed completely by the desire for vengeance, so much so that she is the only one who suggests making an armistice with Sylvanas to deal with N'Zoth.. She also feels that it is her duty to help the Ren'dorei master the void, just like Locus-Walker himself did with her in the past.

    And no, you don't gradually see Sylvanas' mysterious power. The first time we learn she has a super unique power is when she first uses it against Saurfang and that's only mentioned in a line of dialogue after the cinematic. Before that there was no mention whatsoever of Sylvanas gaining a massive power boost.

    Also, Alleria is anything but cliché. If she were a cliché, so basically if she were written by blood elf fanboys, she'd be a damsel in distress who cooks meal for Turalyon while at the same time singing how beautiful and good and perfect the blood elves are and what a honorable and intelligent leader her sitser has become. Instead what Blizzard did was subverting expectations in a good way, because not only does Alleria reject the notion of joining the Horde after what they did to her family and kingdom, but she is also an independent woman who is actually forced to part ways with Turalyon due to her newfound void powers.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2019-12-30 at 12:52 PM.
    "I can't stay behind. Don't ask me to. I stayed behind the last time. I won't watch someone I love go to his death while I..."

    Alleria fan.

  4. #204
    Orc hating hero hates orcs, refuses to acknowledge any changes in their millenia long absence and still lets their hate be a factor for their position.... not cliche at all....

    retroactive pre-timeskip added material from nowhere isn't an asspull because the asspulled timeskip accoutns for the time needed to alow for asspull training... so the power isn't an asspull... just everything else about the lore for it was

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Well, I think after blizzard made the blood elves go horde, they then went back and recast the history in a way that made the elves seem minimally interested or connected to the humans and thus alliance. [I said think because this is just a suspicion]
    Not once were the elves displayed as stalwart members of the Alliance, no matter in what lore period you look at them.

    Would this be the case if it was alliance high elves that were playable? I wonder, and I must fairly also ask myself if it would have mattered to in that scenario as the elves would now supposedly be fully on board.
    These elves have always been a minority and lost quite a few members, because some of the most pro Alliance elves back in the day, are responsible for the name change. Rommath and Kael being prime examples , they were once very pro Alliance, but came to utterly despise it.

    The Gilneans as worgen could have easily joined the forsaken in my opnion given how things were left after WC2, i know they brought int hte undead fighting, but since Sylvanas is opposed to the scourge, and Gilneans didn't like the alliance, worgen on the horde was a possibility I feel only went alliance to give alliance a more monster looking race.
    Except that the forsaken despised the gilneans, because they literally left them to die, for quite a few forsaken the destruction of Gilneas was revenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You gotta love Alleria here. to be fair, there isn't any instance in her appearance that she hasn't been heroic and admirable.
    Indeed her racial slurs against humanity and paladins, were the best thing she ever did.

    I don't understand the hate.. except for partisan hate. Her peole arrognatly under-estimate the threat, but she gets it spot on, with a level of foresight you would expect of her race, how is this chick not the most succesful and most loved of the Windrunner sisters?
    Because her book character was erased, the Alleria that returned is almost nothing like the one that existed before, Alleria Windrunner was a racist, saw the Alliance as a tool , was mentally weak, being driven into a suicidal rage, due to her brothers death and didn't have a half elf spawn retconned into existence and had zero respects towards the human kings, due to their age.

    Now compare that to modern Alleria, that somehow is a mental fortress, addresses a literal boy as her king, is an Alliance die hard supporter, her prior non existent son is the center of her character and motivation to keep her sane.

    Alleria is a walking retcon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    snip
    Who in their right mind would want a Windrunner, the entire family is a blight. At least the Screecher might bite it soon. It might take a few years for the eldest to become raid fodder.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Not once were the elves displayed as stalwart members of the Alliance, no matter in what lore period you look at them.



    These elves have always been a minority and lost quite a few members, because some of the most pro Alliance elves back in the day, are responsible for the name change. Rommath and Kael being prime examples , they were once very pro Alliance, but came to utterly despise it.



    Except that the forsaken despised the gilneans, because they literally left them to die, for quite a few forsaken the destruction of Gilneas was revenge.

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    Indeed her racial slurs against humanity and paladins, were the best thing she ever did.



    Because her book character was erased, the Alleria that returned is almost nothing like the one that existed before, Alleria Windrunner was a racist, saw the Alliance as a tool , was mentally weak, being driven into a suicidal rage, due to her brothers death and didn't have a half elf spawn retconned into existence and had zero respects towards the human kings, due to their age.

    Now compare that to modern Alleria, that somehow is a mental fortress, addresses a literal boy as her king, is an Alliance die hard supporter, her prior non existent son is the center of her character and motivation to keep her sane.

    Alleria is a walking retcon.

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    Who in their right mind would want a Windrunner, the entire family is a blight. At least the Screecher might bite it soon.
    Or you know, we could argue that 1000 years of battles change you, and make you see the world different.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Or you know, we could argue that 1000 years of battles change you, and make you see the world different.
    She fought these thousand years mainly to protect Arathor and there is already the crux, he is a retcon, her entire motivation is no longer the same and as such the entire character is different and why should she suddenly treat short lived people differently? Why should her view on loss change, why would she suddenly respect anduin so much?

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Or you know, we could argue that 1000 years of battles change you, and make you see the world different.
    Or, you know, Blizzard asspulled the 1000 years so that they dont need to be consistent and make new character with an old name.

  9. #209
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Pretty sure we'll see more Alleria/Turalyon/Arator development whenever they do the LightxVoid expansion.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Not once were the elves displayed as stalwart members of the Alliance, no matter in what lore period you look at them.



    These elves have always been a minority and lost quite a few members, because some of the most pro Alliance elves back in the day, are responsible for the name change. Rommath and Kael being prime examples , they were once very pro Alliance, but came to utterly despise it.



    Except that the forsaken despised the gilneans, because they literally left them to die, for quite a few forsaken the destruction of Gilneas was revenge.

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    Indeed her racial slurs against humanity and paladins, were the best thing she ever did.



    Because her book character was erased, the Alleria that returned is almost nothing like the one that existed before, Alleria Windrunner was a racist, saw the Alliance as a tool , was mentally weak, being driven into a suicidal rage, due to her brothers death and didn't have a half elf spawn retconned into existence and had zero respects towards the human kings, due to their age.

    Now compare that to modern Alleria, that somehow is a mental fortress, addresses a literal boy as her king, is an Alliance die hard supporter, her prior non existent son is the center of her character and motivation to keep her sane.

    Alleria is a walking retcon.

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    Who in their right mind would want a Windrunner, the entire family is a blight. At least the Screecher might bite it soon. It might take a few years for the eldest to become raid fodder.
    You're letting your bias show. Besides, what makes you so sure Arator is a retcon rather than an addition that fleshes out a character quite alot?

    Can you prove he is a retcon?

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Or, you know, Blizzard asspulled the 1000 years so that they dont need to be consistent and make new character with an old name.
    So what? She is like that now, and she won't change because Blizzard wants it that way. So you better get your shit together and deal with your issue about her.

    Again, ppl changes, especially over the course of 1000 years. She was fighting to protect her kingdom before, and she has fought to protect all 'life' for 1000 years. I am thinking that it does change ppl. Usually, you care about what you are protecting.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Or you know, we could argue that 1000 years of battles change you, and make you see the world different.
    500 years. She spent the latter half in Naaru holding cell. Besides, how would a thousand years of the only human contact being Turalyon (when in that time he pretty much became a honorary Draenei) make her change her opinion on humans as a whole? Is Turalyon the godking of humankind that reflects upon them all? Because in the books her growing close with him and befriending Khadgar did not miraculously make her consider all of humanity to be her masters, because those were just two individuals. Even more questionable is her becoming a stalwart Alliance supporter in that time when the Naaru, Army of Light and Locus Walker contact should all have led her in the direction of considering the Alliance-Horde conflicts to be petty squabbles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So what? She is like that now, and she won't change because Blizzard wants it that way. So you better get your shit together and deal with your issue about her.

    Again, ppl changes, especially over the course of 1000 years. She was fighting to protect her kingdom before, and she has fought to protect all 'life' for 1000 years. I am thinking that it does change ppl. Usually, you care about what you are protecting.
    It is plausible Alleria changes over that period, but she changes before that if I am right, isn't that what the audio book and Tide of Darkness show. She is this princiaplled but arrogant She-Elf, understandly full of rage agains thte orcs, but like most elves who've lived in isolation from others, it's a different ball game when you're now forced to interact with other races, especially in a situatio where there is no Quel'thalas to return to, as was the case for all the lves who travelled through the dark portal.

    For soemone as passionate as she is, given the intense scenarios she is thrust into, and the powerful companionships she gains, change is inevitable, especially seeing most of her introduction is seeing Alleria in a traumatised state.

    who's to say what we then see of her in the thousand years war tale is not the real Alleria, and what was introduced isn't actually the core.

    I've seen this many many times, not just in warcraft but other series, whiles in a lot of cases, law of first mention/appearance tends to characterise a character or group, it sin't always the case, sometimes it's just a stage, especially in stories and franchises where the stories continue. I remember concluding a while ago that the night elves we saw in WC3, were just a snapshot of a bigger whole rather than the main characteristic of the entire race. I didn't at first reach this conclusion, but I did after looking at how thier story, and factors in it developed and also how their history was told, and this was supported in the very first paragraph the fans got to see about them (the WC3 manual), the description of the night elves in there has held true consistently througohout the years with all the revelations of both their pre-sundering era , their long vigil era, and their Post-WC3 era with the development of groups like the Ilidari, Highborne, Moonguard, Nightborne etc warden, priestesses, sentinels... but it's largely the famous 4 night elves. Azshara, Malfurion, Tyrande and Illidan - each representing a major facet of this group, and we have seen much detail about all that is connected to these 4.

    This is why it's so hard to show retcon for somethings @Combatbulter , and most you can do in some case is suspect a recast. However a lot of things are just fleshed out for us to see, and may be details that were already there from the very start of their creation (whether shown to us or not, hinted or not - I have always suspected the developer room has a lot of interesting details that aren't always shared but are actually part of a race or character. Sometimes the art reflects this, often enough it informs how a character behaves to b elater revealed as a "surprise", and the way blizzard develops things, sometimes you can be waiting years before you see it. The thing is, when you see it, doesn't always mean it was an asspull or a retcon or recast, even though those things also happen.

    Question is though, is that really important, whether it was there at the start or not? I think it hardly matters. I use to go on a lot about how the arcane legacy and connection of the night elves is there from the very start in the WC3 manual, and fleshed out well, yet most people aren't even aware of it, and ignore it feeling the Wow levelling experience summarise the race.. before the WoT, I use to point out a lot how people forgot that we all use to feel night elves were female amazons mainly - all these impressions are people just going on what they see, because they play and repeat WC3 campaigns so many times, or WoW levelling zones, their perspective can sometimes be over focused because of the reptition, so that when blizzard show other factors, like Alleria's actual love and care or the night elven pre-sundering arcane development in places like Suramar and a magical battle prowess in the Moonguard and Nighthold stronghold or in the Illidari, people just ignore it, because 12 years of repeat play have embedded and they just don't read or factor in anything else.

    I think that's what's going on here.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-12-30 at 05:30 PM.

  14. #214
    So she had 500 years to think about her actions and past behaviors xD. Quite a long time to think. Again, ppl can change over time.

  15. #215
    Actually 1000 years are not enough to change, sources confirm that you need precisely 1226 years to grow as a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    It is plausible Alleria changes over that period, but she changes before that if I am right, isn't that what the audio book and Tide of Darkness show.
    Yes, she changes before being left stranded in the Twisting Nether. She understands that vengeance alone shouldn't be the only thing driving her in the expedition to Draenor and she rekindles her relationship with Turalyon and is finally able to rise beyond her blind hatred for the orcs.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2019-12-30 at 05:26 PM.
    "I can't stay behind. Don't ask me to. I stayed behind the last time. I won't watch someone I love go to his death while I..."

    Alleria fan.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    I am sure once they become void corrupted, she can use her void powers to turn them into obedient waifus for Stormwind soldiers, just like you want. But that comes later.
    The guy I was talking to was denouncing Alleria for joining the Alliance and supposedly abandoning her people. I was pointing out she did everything she could to get her people to join the faction she wanted to join but was unsuccessful.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  17. #217
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So she had 500 years to think about her actions and past behaviors xD. Quite a long time to think. Again, ppl can change over time.
    Not if someones brain have processing capability of old calculator. Which seems to be case with alleria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The guy I was talking to was denouncing Alleria for joining the Alliance and supposedly abandoning her people. I was pointing out she did everything she could to get her people to join the faction she wanted to join but was unsuccessful.
    Which doesn't really change the fact that she choose potential over her people.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Not if someones brain have processing capability of old calculator. Which seems to be case with alleria.

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    Which doesn't really change the fact that she choose potential over her people.
    She didn't choose the Alliance because of "human potential", she chose the Alliance because that's where she can be reunited with the rest of her family.
    "I can't stay behind. Don't ask me to. I stayed behind the last time. I won't watch someone I love go to his death while I..."

    Alleria fan.

  19. #219
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    She didn't choose the Alliance because of "human potential", she chose the Alliance because that's where she can be reunited with the rest of her family.
    Who just so happen to be humans :P And another human slave.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Who just so happen to be humans :P And another human slave.
    No? Only Turalyon is human. Vereesa is a high elf and Arator, Giramar, and Galadin are half-elves.
    "I can't stay behind. Don't ask me to. I stayed behind the last time. I won't watch someone I love go to his death while I..."

    Alleria fan.

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