Sylvanas is suffocating Alleria progress

[ravenmoon]

Anwyay, imo, Blood elf fans should still revere Alleria, and she should be a political threat to blood elf leadership because of her character and position.

[Zora-Prime]

Okay, which still isn't the case, because aside from the Ren'dorei, who kind of need her, and her family, the rest of the Alliance either distrust her and her kind or do not give a shit at all.

Trusted her enough have Anduin's back... It is the case.

No it isn't? Can you not even read the definition you copy-pasted from wikipedia? Nowhere does it say that just because you are the protagonist you are a Mary Sue.

Combined with the other things it does. By itself it doesn't.

Or maybe she tags along with Anduin because the Alliance is the only refuge she has left after she has been exiled from her homeland? Besides, she only really tagged along with him at the Battle of Lordaeron, where she wanted Sylvanas dead after their failed reunion in Three Sisters.

She was literally there as Anduin's bodyguard. Stop making up fan-fic stories about her motivations.

Well clearly you do because you don't know it. Those powers she was handed brought a lot of negative consequences for her, since she was corrupted by one of the most dangerous forces in the universe. And she never wanted to be corrupted by the void, it was an incident. Following that logic the entire Scourge is made up of Mary Sues because they were raised into undeath and got undead powers.

She suffered ZERO negative consequences and gained quite the power-up.
Mary-sue character have most or all the traits on this list, not just one of them. So, No. The scourge powers do not apply here.

And? It doesn't matter if she wasn't wrong. Sargeras also wasn't wrong to think that the void needs to be stopped no matter the cost. It doesn't change the fact that she acted in a hypocritical way, and Sylvanas events points out that Alleria acts like she is noble and pure when she herself was twisted into an abomination by absorbing the heart of the fallen naaru.

Buddy, stop acting like her being judgmental towards Sylvanas is some kind of flaw... whut...?

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Anwyay, imo, Blood elf fans should still revere Alleria, and she should be a political threat to blood elf leadership because of her character and position.

I disagree. She's boring.
Write her better and try again later.

[mickybrighteyes]

Anwyay, imo, Blood elf fans should still revere Alleria, and she should be a political threat to blood elf leadership because of her character and position.

not sure I'd agree.

But this would be more of a litmus test for someone's bias on other events.

See, the 'blood elves' would likely have a worse opinion of alliance relations (read: Stormwind) because of the events of the third war. Yes Alleria is a major figure of the second war and a hero among the high elves, but the nation of Quel'thalas and it's survivors following Arthas' invasion and the corruption of the Sunwell aren't the same people ideologically. Alleria showing up ignorant of events and trying to rope the nation back in with Stormwind might not be as welcomed among the "Blood Elves" because of what made them Blood Elves.

This is a subject that would invite some amount of intrigue among a racial storyline... the kind of story telling wow only reserves for the human nations however. This much is evident from how Liadrin and the Blood Knights were so easily washed up into elf skinned paladin copies of the human variety.... nevermind that this religious view seems to also seep into other facets of Quel'thalas and adds another reason to dislike Alleria given her void nature now.

Overall, post-legion Alleria is an elf who doesn't stand for Quel'thalas and is somehow both a fragment of a lost age and some new herald of the times while either ignoring or standing against events that transpired in her absence for no reason than it wasn't like that in her time or it can't be like that going forward. It's a shame they made her more stuck on old allegiances more than Turalyon =/ really seems more of a human thing than a "High Elf" (cause she was very much NOT a blood elf before taking the void) thing.

[Varodoc]

Trusted her enough have Anduin's back... It is the case.

She came to the Battle of Lordaeron to save Anduin, and she did alongside Mekkatorque. What, you think Greymane or Jaina should have told her after that to gtfo because she's wielding the void? After she literally got them out of a bad situation? If anything, she earned that trust through her actions in the battle.

Combined with the other things it does. By itself it doesn't.

Yeah but those others things don't exist so she's not a Mary Sue.

She was literally there as Anduin's bodyguard. Stop making up fan-fic stories about her motivations.

No? She was there as an allied leader who participated in the battle and led the Ren'dorei in the name of the Alliance. She was as much of a bodyguard for Anduin as Greymane and Jaina were, and Lor'themar and Baine were for Sylvanas.

She suffered ZERO negative consequences and gained quite the power-up.

What?! She was exiled from her homeland, her reputation is stained forever, she constantly hears whispers in her head, and she can't even touch her husband anymore, how did she suffer ZERO negative consequences?

Mary-sue character have most or all the traits on this list, not just one of them. So, No. The scourge powers do not apply here.

Yeah, but she has only one trait from the list, the "Pretty" trait, so she isn't a Mary Sue either. Actually, even that doesn't count, because a Mary Sue doesn't have to be hot.

Buddy, stop acting like her being judgmental towards Sylvanas is some kind of flaw... whut...?

That's not what I said. I said she is hypocritical because she considers Sylvanas an abomination while she herself is also twisted by shadowy powers. Her houlier than thou attitude does her no credit, and Sylvanas even points this out to her. Hypocrisy is a big character flaw.

I disagree. She's boring.
Write her better and try again later.

Your opinion doesn't count when you know nothing about the character and haven't even made the smallest of efforts to understand her.

[mickybrighteyes]

What?! She was exiled from her homeland, her reputation is stained forever,

Not the result of her power up.

she constantly hears whispers in her head,

Doesn't seem to impact her much if at all.

and she can't even touch her husband anymore,

Not a result of her changes alone.

how did she suffer ZERO negative consequences?

Aside from the whispers you didn't really show anything that was the result of the void empowerment.

Yeah her exile because of touching the sunwell was a bit of a downer, but her reputation was already going south because of her position on Alliance v. Horde.
Yes the deal with her husband is terrible... but also due to both people being cosmically altered by opposing forces that can't mingle.

[Zora-Prime]

Not the result of her power up.


Doesn't seem to impact her much if at all.

Not a result of her changes alone.


Aside from the whispers you didn't really show anything that was the result of the void empowerment.

Yeah her exile because of touching the sunwell was a bit of a downer, but her reputation was already going south because of her position on Alliance v. Horde.
Yes the deal with her husband is terrible... but also due to both people being cosmically altered by opposing forces that can't mingle.

Thanks!

I'm too lazy for this back n forth.

[Varodoc]

Thanks!

As I don't know anything about Alleria I really don't belong in this discussion.

Fixed for you.

All the points of the post you quoted are either illogical (like the idea that the whispers aren't a big deal just because Blizzard doesn't remind you 24/7 that there's this character who suffers from a bad case of void corruption) or don't counter my points at all.

Infracted.

[Zora-Prime]

Fixed for you.

All the points of the post you quoted are either illogical (like the idea that the whispers aren't a big deal just because Blizzard doesn't remind you 24/7 that there's this character who suffers from a bad case of void corruption) or don't counter my points at all.

You can't even separate yourself from your biases to even be worth addressing in the first place.

See, personal attacks are not fun.

[Moozart]

Alleria progress?

She went from a Silvermoon hardline loyalist who hated the orcs for what they did to Quel'thalas to a traitor to her people with like 0 story development.

Oh and also she's like the bestest ever at shadow magic now because of reasons.

Can you count moving from Point A to Point Z as character progress even if you skip Points B through Y?

Lets ignore the fact she was already over 10k years old and lived another thousand doing nothing but fighting the void/legion/whoever... part of that was her b-y

[Varodoc]

You can't even separate yourself from your biases to even be worth addressing in the first place.

See, personal attacks are not fun.

It is not a personal attack, it is a fact. You come in here claiming that Alleria is a trash and boring character when you don't even know her backstory.

Oh, and I suppose that this wasn't a personal attack then?

If you can't see why that makes her a mary-sue then everybody in this thread is just wasting their time.

[mickybrighteyes]

Fixed for you.

All the points of the post you quoted are either illogical (like the idea that the whispers aren't a big deal just because Blizzard doesn't remind you 24/7 that there's this character who suffers from a bad case of void corruption) or don't counter my points at all.

if they were a big deal they'd be more present in the story told. And you're counter argument is saying my points don't matter rather than refuting my points... that in itself says something.... but I think i'll be a little bit of a bigger person by responding directly and not making pointless insults via post editing.

I get how you might say those effects are detrimental, but the fact is they do nothing to impede Alleria in the slightest. This isn't a love story, so physical interaction of an intimate nature doesn't affect the stories told. Her mental faculties never seem impaired to any point in her various stories, except for being rather ignorant of events (not a result of void corruption, just void of common sense). And again, you say the void alteration has a cause of harming her reputation and her exile, but that is still not a result of her alterations... but other actions that transpired after she was altered.

Again, this is the complete list of detrimental side effects and none of which appear to impede her or are caused by the changes.... so what are Alleria's main drawbacks besides the fact that the author made a min/maxed archer trope that made Int the dumpstat?


edit:

Honestly... Alleria feels too similar to the character Minmax from Goblins. Minmax gave up the ability to automatically blink and conciously rhyme so he could get extra character feats. Alleria gave up the ability to keep her thoughts clear and any possible intimacy with her husband for extra combat feats. Major drawbacks till you realize her main methods of planning of late are by the seat of her pants and her relationship with a lawful stupid trope living paladin of righteousness was likely going nowhere anyways.

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Lets ignore the fact she was already over 10k years old and lived another thousand doing nothing but fighting the void/legion/whoever... part of that was her b-y

None of that really established how she goes from caring about Quel'thalas to coming back and not caring about what's going in the world and trying to get Quel'thalas to break it's current ties cause she was a big god damn hero and all...

the millenia of so of training at void magic is fine and dandy, until it turns out she is careless about how she can't do certain things that she's supposedly aware she shouldn't do... like touching fonts of diametrically opposed powersources that fuel nations (cause she can't even touch her husband and she knows that much at least...)

She really shows up on the scene, learns Quel'thalas is allied with the horde and that Sylvanas runs it, so what her next thoughts are? WHAT!?! and she runs to go get Theron to break ties and jump in with the Alliance. No "What happened to Anasterion?!" not even a bit of "How does an ELF rule the HORDE?!" or anything else about what's up. Nope she just goes off to hamfist some diplomacy roles like she was the party bard and they just saw the DM's pet dragon coming to attack the party.

[Zora-Prime]

It is not a personal attack, it is a fact. You come in here claiming that Alleria is a trash and boring character when you don't even know her backstory.

Oh, and I suppose that this wasn't a personal attack then?

Her "Backstory" is so insignificant and trope-y, it can be written and put into a fortune cookie.

Blizz should just kill her off in Shadowlands along with her husband Paladino or w/e his name is.

[Varodoc]

Her "Backstory" is so insignificant and trope-y, it can be written and put into a fortune cookie.

Blizz should just kill her off in Shadowlands along with her husband Paladino or w/e his name is.

You certainly can't write it because you don't know it, and the backstory of a character is never insignificant. Case in point, Alleria's backstory perfectly explains why and how she is in her Legion position. Also the vast majority of characters in Warcraft are trope-y, so please.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Anwyay, imo, Blood elf fans should still revere Alleria, and she should be a political threat to blood elf leadership because of her character and position.

Alright I'll bite, why?

And how would she be?


"Well shit that elf woman who loves humans more than us and almost fucked over our sunwell seems like a good leader compared to the guy that held our nation together when everyone even our prince tried to screw it."

[Specialka]

Not if someones brain have processing capability of old calculator. Which seems to be case with alleria.

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Which doesn't really change the fact that she choose potential over her people.

That is your assumptions. And from now on, I won't respond anymore to you. You are boring.

[Arrashi]

That is your assumptions. And from now on, I won't respond anymore to you. You are boring.

I dunno, its mostly her actions in game that speak about her "intelect". The whole sunwell thing proves that alleria is on level of 3 year old child when it comes to "don't touch that".

And boohoo now im sad.

[ravenmoon]

Alright I'll bite, why?

And how would she be?


"Well shit that elf woman who loves humans more than us and almost fucked over our sunwell seems like a good leader compared to the guy that held our nation together when everyone even our prince tried to screw it."

Firstly all she has done for Quel'thalas. That's the whole reason she goes and joins the humans anyway, it'st o stop the threat to her homeland, and save her home planet, directly becuase of the love for her people.

And it's clear on her return she still loves her people though she doesn't agree with their political choices. They banish her, and she still refuses to give up on her. AS a blood elf, you may not agree with her choices, but you have to respect and revere her at least as a hero of your people.

[Varodoc]

Firstly all she has done for Quel'thalas. That's the whole reason she goes and joins the humans anyway, it'st o stop the threat to her homeland, and save her home planet, directly becuase of the love for her people.

And it's clear on her return she still loves her people though she doesn't agree with their political choices. They banish her, and she still refuses to give up on her. AS a blood elf, you may not agree with her choices, but you have to respect and revere her at least as a hero of your people.

On the plus side we know that several blood elves have joined the Ren'dorei, enticed by their promises of knowledge and power over the void. There could be a civil war in the future.

[ravenmoon]

On the plus side we know that several blood elves have joined the Ren'dorei, enticed by their promises of knowledge and power over the void. There could be a civil war in the future.

Well all of the initial Ren'dorei are blood elves, it is later that we see high elves and even more blood elves joining their cause. That does say something doesn't it.
Alas you said something taht caused you to be banned, so I guess we shall see your response in a few days?

[mickybrighteyes]

Firstly all she has done for Quel'thalas. That's the whole reason she goes and joins the humans anyway, it'st o stop the threat to her homeland, and save her home planet, directly becuase of the love for her people.

Yes she did fight in the second war and allow her people to keep their promise to one nation... a nation that doesn't stand in the current era. That threat she fought no longer exists and she now projects that threat feeling upon a nation her people, Quel'thalas, has allied with. She currently backs the human nation of Stormwind and the Alliance because of her old ties in a conflict that, for her, is thousands of years old (still only 20~ for Quel'thalas) but she still remains ignorant of why Quel'thalas had a falling out with the human nations.

And it's clear on her return she still loves her people though she doesn't agree with their political choices. They banish her, and she still refuses to give up on her. AS a blood elf, you may not agree with her choices, but you have to respect and revere her at least as a hero of your people.

She also refuses to actually learn about the recent events during her absence. She had ONE chat with Vereesa and then decided to ignore some glaringly obvious indicators that the times have changed.

This thinking that she's a hero and should be loved is like saying Stormwind should appreciate Perenolde's thoughts on Stormwind's political sphere.

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On the plus side we know that several blood elves have joined the Ren'dorei, enticed by their promises of knowledge and power over the void. There could be a civil war in the future.

Unlikely... only the human storylines get that kind of nuance or maybe orc when they're feeling like they need to shake things up.