Sylvanas is suffocating Alleria progress

[Varodoc]

Who the hell actually cares about Alleria?

Me and the OP, and since me and the OP are VIPs that's enough.

[Mehrunes]

After she got banished from her own kingdom. A kingdom, mind you, that banished its own people twice before her.

Twice? The would-be Void Elves were exiled to Ghostlands, which very much is Thalassian territory. As was pointed out to you in the Baine thread, exile doesn't automatically mean disowning a citizen. The Void-meddling idiots were a threat to the core of Blood Elven society so they were exiled away from Silvermoon. That's all. That aside, mentioning those other events (or event, as per above) is as fallacious as is usual for you. And even if Alleria was exiled in the way you claim, exile isn't exactly a reward for good behavior. Alleria almost doomed the entirety of Quel'Thalas before Lor'themar told her to fuck of from Silvermoon.

And, finally, something you also """"""""""accidentally"""""""""" left out is that before all of that happened Alleria made it known she was in Silvermoon on behalf of the High King of the Alliance. So not only did she not return to Quel'Thalas to go back to her duties as a Ranger, not only did she continue her AWOL escapades, but she once again teamed up with foreign faction. Faction, that by the time she came to Quel'Thalas, was already hostile to the Horde that Quel'Thalas has joined.

Look at you, so cute, thinking you got a "gotcha" by pretending I made an argument that I never did.

What's cute is you parroting words I used in reply to you yesterday. And you didn't make an argument against the first mortal to ever withstand the corruption of the Void (which is a point the narrative drives home repeatedly for a reason) being amazingly strong with the Void? Imagine my surprise then, because I just reread it.

Betrayal of the orders given to her? Maybe.
Betrayal of all Thalassian elves? Hardly.

Who gave her those orders? Fairies? Or, you know, the Thalassian military subject to the crown of Quel'Thalas?

And Alleria was still regarded as a hero by the Thalassian elves. She is welcomed with open arms in Silvermoon when she shows up with King Anduin's proposal. At least until she tries to make said proposal.

Is this whataboutism supposed to negate anything I said?

An accident and her not wanting to be in cohort with the murderers of her family, who proved mere weeks later that they were as vicious and bloodthirsty as they ever were. or did you forget the Burning of Teldrassil, were every race of the Horde sent troops one way or another and none did seem phased by that. What should she do then ? Let her family be slaughtered because the people she used to call her kindred wanted it ?

The Nightborne recruitment scenario happened prior to War of Thorns. And her not wanting to be in cohort with the murderers of her family isn't an argument. Quel'Thalas' political affiliations are not something for Alleria to decide, nor does it magically give her a carte blanche to go against her kingdom with no consqeuences just because she dislikes those affiliations. Never mind that her beloved humans almost doomed her entire race to extinction twice in short succession and she doesn't even blink about it.

[mickybrighteyes]

The high elves who did not want to drain mana from living beings was the first time.
Umbric and his research group was the second time.

In that case it was only 1 time prior and the second time was when Alleria herself was banished as the events that forced her banishment was the same event that made theron banish Umbric and his merry band of researchers.

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Who the hell actually cares about Alleria?

Certain posters with specific names themed around Alleria and void elves mainly.

[Pheraz]

I would have liked to see them evolve Alleria's character as a central figure in the Thalassian elvs, as she touches all their factions except of the San'layn led undead ones.

Yet I believe that the dev boner for Sylvanas, will likely mean we will never really see good lore progression for Alleria, blood elves, high elves or void elves.

Notice how often weak Lor'themar is written in the roles he appears in. Alleria had a strong return arc, that's really just fizzled, she plays almost no role in BFA, despite the promising start in the opening scenario and its cinematic.

Vereesa who showed up in Legion seems to go nowhere,

And blood elves, the most played end game race, still have their lore second class..

But then I am a bit fed up of the all consuming way they focus on characters in the expansion. Save it for the books, and please just focus on the races and zones in the game, To be honest, I'm far more interested in what the Thalassians (blood elves, high elves, void elves) etc are doing as a story that continues the race, as I am far more curious about other races and how they fair.

Agreed. They really need to wake up and throw away this crap character sylvanas. Just listen to some black metal and get over that wanna-be goth elf

[Varodoc]

Agreed. They really need to wake up and throw away this crap character sylvanas. Just listen to some black metal and get over that wanna-be goth elf

Hopefully she'll finally die in Shadowlands and then we can move on to something new: the Light and Void expansion, which will no doubt see Alleria and the Ren'dorei in the spotlight.

[Mehrunes]

Both Romnath and Lorthemar are kind of hypocrites. They banished all of those who disagreed with the method of draining mana to any creature they could find and of course the captured Naruu as also experimenting on Fel Energy. Then they banished those who wanted to study Void Energy despite moments before they were experimenting on Fel Energy nearly resulting in a second Sunwell destruction and the summoning of Kiljaeden in Azeroth. Then they reject the offer of Alleria without not even listening prefering to stay with the enemy of life to be slaughtered just for the Jailer to gain more power playing the victim card when things went downhill. Somehow Alleria's touch would destroy the Sunwell. We can't regard the fact that they were close of destroying the Sunwell a second time themselves. Sometimes I wonder if the Blood Elves have more of a victim complex than Orcs.

They'd be hypocrites only if Fel and the Void were the same. Which, you know, they are not. Also, it's almost as if partnership with humans burned Quel'Thalas multiple times in a row. The last time rather recently.

The reason for her banishment is immaterial to the discussion here. The point is that Alleria participated in the war on the opposite side of the blood elves' faction only after she was banished.

The reason? Maybe. The very fact of her being banished? Not really given what banishment is a punishment for typically. Besides, you put your reply to @Verdugo here in the same post as your reply to @mickybrighteyes' post pointing out to you that she teamed up with an enemy of the Horde - and as such of Quel'Thalas as well - before she got banished. And she even announced that to Lor'themar herself. Obviously you cherry-picked it out as you do with everything that's even remotely inconvenient to your non-argument, but still...

The high elves who did not want to drain mana from living beings was the first time.
Umbric and his research group was the second time.

Umbric and his squad were only forced out of Eversong Woods. They were still living in Thalassian territory. And the High Elves were flat out refusing to live by what Kael'thas, their sovereign, told Blood Elves to do to survive. And deliberately threatened the survival of everyone around them by willingly suffering the effects of mana withdrawal. I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here by invoking traitors to Quel'Thalas, but I doubt it's working.

[Specialka]

Why should she go back to Quel'Thalas? They have not been aligned with her beliefs for a long time. They allied themselves with a faction that have commit a genocide, led unprovoked war against the Alliance and so on. This is not what she fought for. She is doing what she believes is right.

[Ielenia]

In that case it was only 1 time prior and the second time was when Alleria herself was banished as the events that forced her banishment was the same event that made theron banish Umbric and his merry band of researchers.

Umbric and his research team were already banished by the time Alleria showed up in Silvermoon. And at no point it is said that Umbric brought the void close to the Sunwell to claim "it was the same event".

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Twice? The would-be Void Elves were exiled to Ghostlands, which very much is Thalassian territory.

They were still banished from Silvermoon:
"Convinced that the void was essential to the defense of Silvermoon, Umbric and his followers delved into it against the wishes of Quel'Thalas' Grand Magister, Rommath. Eventually, Rommath had them banished, reasoning that any who treat with the void pose a danger to the Sunwell"
And judging by what you read on the diaries, received no support whatsoever from Silvermoon.

What's cute is you parroting words I used in reply to you yesterday.

It's what you deserve after attempting to put words in my proverbial mouth.

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The reason? Maybe. The very fact of her being banished? Not really given what banishment is a punishment for typically. Besides, you put your reply to @Verdugo here in the same post as your reply to @mickybrighteyes' post pointing out to you that she teamed up with an enemy of the Horde - and as such of Quel'Thalas as well - before she got banished. And she even announced that to Lor'themar herself. Obviously you cherry-picked it out as you do with everything that's even remotely inconvenient to your non-argument, but still...

And yet she was still received with open arms by Lor'themar. Shouldn't a "traitor" be put in chains?

Umbric and his squad were only forced out of Eversong Woods. They were still living in Thalassian territory.

They could have been just hiding there. Quel'lithien fell and is filled with Wretched, and the Plaguelands is still a very hostile place.

[Kallisto]

Why is she a traitor? Because she didn't join the Orcs who killed her people?

No she just joined the Alliance which she cared little about and also killed her people even before they joined the horde.

[wushootaki]

Family always comes first, and all her relatives are in the Alliance, aside from Sylvanas, whom she deems as lost. Also yes, she hates the orcs, that's why she rejects the Horde. She also remains loyal to Silvermoon and seeks to bring it back to the Alliance, where it belongs. She is not the best ever at wielding shadow magic, so much so that she has envisioned a potential future in which she succumbs to the whispers, and we literally see that possible future in 8.3. Also she trained under the Locus-Walker, who is one of the most powerful Void users in the cosmos, for 500 years, and the final stage of her training is the focus of the Mac'aree questline in Legion.

As someone who was gone for the duration of Arthas's siege and destruction of Quel'thelas, how exactly does she know where Quel'thelas belongs? While she was gone, her people faced persecution and racism under the alliance, were denied help, got slaughtered wholesale, and the only people willing to help them pick up the pieces were the forsaken led by their former Ranger General Sylvannas.

The Blood elves are exactly where they belong, if you pay any attention to the storyline, as even when they considered leaving the Horde under Garrosh, Jaina and Vereesa's slaughter of them in Dalaran ensured they would stay loyal to the people who have actually been helping them survive for the past 20 or so years, aka Horde.

[Darth-Piekus]

While the Void is Shadow Energy and the Fel is Demonic Energy their purpose is the same and are corruptive and destructive if left unclecked. Lorthemar and Romnath are responsible for letting a Naruu getting drained of his Light resulting Muru turning into a Void God which if left unchecked can level an entire planet. If it wasn't for the heroes stopping Muru during the Sunwell Plateau Azeroth would have been done for. Also the fact that they played with Fel Energy to satisfy their Mana Thirst resulted in a chain reaction that led to Kiljaeden almost being summoned to Azeroth. Both times the Sunwell would have been destroyed or corrupted. They have no right to play the victim card and judge others.

Also the Alliance of Lordaeron suffered much more because of the High Elves(as that was the name of the Blood Elves back then) inaction during the two wars against the Orcs and the war against the Scourge. Only Alleria and her battalion helped immediately. The rest of the Blood Elves stayed behind their shield, caring only when the Orcs reached them. The same thing happened when the Undead Scourge attacked the Northern Human Kingdoms. They stayed behind and only acted when Arthas reached their doorstep but then it was too late. Their inaction created Garithos since his family was slaughtered by Orcs when he was protecting them with his battalion leaving his village had little protection. Garithos was always racist but their inaction sped up the process.

In general they are both hypocrites and have no right to play the victim card and pass judgement on others for things they did themselves.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

While the Void is Shadow Energy and the Fel is Demonic Energy their purpose is the same and are corruptive and destructive if left unclecked. Lorthemar and Romnath are responsible for letting a Naruu getting drained of his Light resulting Muru turning into a Void God which if left unchecked can level an entire planet. If it wasn't for the heroes stopping Muru during the Sunwell Plateau Azeroth would have been done for. Also the fact that they played with Fel Energy to satisfy their Mana Thirst resulted in a chain reaction that led to Kiljaeden almost being summoned to Azeroth. Both times the Sunwell would have been destroyed or corrupted. They have no right to play the victim card and judge others.

Also the Alliance of Lordaeron suffered much more because of the High Elves(as that was the name of the Blood Elves back then) inaction during the two wars against the Orcs and the war against the Scourge. Only Alleria and her battalion helped immediately. The rest of the Blood Elves stayed behind their shield, caring only when the Orcs reached them. The same thing happened when the Undead Scourge attacked the Northern Human Kingdoms. They stayed behind and only acted when Arthas reached their doorstep but then it was too late. Their inaction created Garithos since his family was slaughtered by Orcs when he was protecting them with his battalion leaving his village had little protection. Garithos was always racist but their inaction sped up the process.

In general they are both hypocrites and have no right to play the victim card and pass judgement on others for things they did themselves.

Every energy in WoW is destructive and corruptive if unchecked. Remember Everbloom?

So, Lorthemar and Rommath are responsible of a Legion assault taking Quel'danas by surprise? Good to know.

Great. You have any better idea to keep the thirst away? Please tell them, because they did their best in an emergency situation. In fact, Kael was offering them a future where they could satiate their hunger without resorting to fel (til the moment he said fuck it).

In fact, it was Kael'thas, their leader, who ordered the whole use of fel, and it was their duty to follow, even if they themselves didn't like it (it wasn't like they could come with a better alternative).

Why having as main priority not helping humans makes them hypocrites? In fact, you could actually say, joining Alleria and Anduin AFTER all the things they did as people to NOT depend on humans, that would be hypocrite.

[Outer Heaven]

I mean they ruined Alleria the moment they introduced her, when they made her a void creature. Because that's nothing to be worried about. The void is just "the other side of the coin" and just as good as the light.

[Darth-Piekus]

Every Energy is indeed dectructive if left unchecked. That is what I said. That is why they are hypocrites judging others when they did the same thing.

Lorthemar and Romnath are responsible for experimenting with Fel Energy that pretty much set up a chain of events that led to the Sunwell Plateau. They are also completely responsible for the birth of Muru the Void God who would have destroyed Azeroth if left unchecked. Their duty was to find a way to sate their peoples thirst and they knew fully well how corruptive Fel Energy was. Instead of finding another way as all of the surviving high elves they resorted to the easy solution just because Kaelthas said it like they don't have enough IQ to research alternative ways.

Let's just say that they were part of the Alliance and were under attack as a coalition by an alien invading force that had eradication of all life as their goal. They had all the right not to help but then who would protect them from the Orcish Horde if the human kingdoms fell? It would have been the same result as what happened with the Scourge. The problem here is that they preferred to stay and help a living corpse end all life on Azeroth instead of joining Anduin or Alleria. That is why they are hypocrites. Alleria and Anduin were the supposed danger here and not their own actions so far.

[Varodoc]

I mean they ruined Alleria the moment they introduced her, when they made her a void creature. Because that's nothing to be worried about. The void is just "the other side of the coin" and just as good as the light.

Correct, that's nothing to be worried about. Or rather, it's about as worrying as someone holding a knife. A weapon can be used for good or evil depending on its user, and Alleria and the Ren'dorei are bent on using the Void for good.

[Outer Heaven]

Correct, that's nothing to be worried about.

Void users are always driven insane by the whispers. You can see that with shadow priests in the order hall and with void elves, like the ones in the island expedition.

You can't just liken it to a knife. There are certain weapons that are inherently dangerous to deal with, and it's easy to become corrupted and lose control and do more damage than good. That has been shown again and again in Warcraft.

[Varodoc]

Void users are always driven insane by the whispers. You can see that with shadow priests in the order hall and with void elves, like the ones in the island expedition.

You can't just liken it to a knife. There are certain weapons that are inherently dangerous to deal with, and it's easy to become corrupted and lose control and do more damage than good. That has been shown again and again in Warcraft.

Except they don't. Moira and the Cult of the Shadows have used Void magic in the past and they're not insane. Same thing for Anduin, he uses Void magic in MoP and he certainly didn't go mad. The Ren'dorei are not insane and of the three void elves in the island expeditions, only one appears to be drawing close to madness, although it's not full insanity at all.

Perhaps I can't compare it fully to a knife, but I can certainly compare it with literally any other cosmic force in Warcraft. Yrel, Malygos, Gul'dan, Arthas, and the Botani are all examples of people who are insane despite not using the Void.

[xxcrxx]

Back in WotLK:

"ArThAs iS SuFFoCaTiNg VoL'JiN's PrOgReSs".

Imagine lacking so much common sense, that you'd think some character would be a central figure in a totally unrelated expansion. Are you even trying to hide the fanboyism? This is WoW: some characters just vanish to the shadows for some expansions like it's nothing.

How much time did Valeera, Lilian Voss, Rexxar, Rokhan and Wrathion, for example, spend in the shadows? This is completely normal for an extended franchise with literally hundreds of important characters and being a plot driven, not a character driven story - although, granted that sometimes they do it in a weird way, like Wrathion having such a huge role in MoP, then just suddenly going MIA.

This is probably not Alleria's time to shine. She will most likely be warming the bench, maybe having a little setup and that's will probably be it for now.

Guess we could just agree that Vereesa sucks, though?

[Outer Heaven]

Except they don't.

Except they do.

Just because not every instance of someone using shadow-related magic is shown to have catastrophic consequences, doesn't mean it isn't dangerous magic that can and probably will end up doing more damage than it did good.

[Varodoc]

Except they do.

Just because not every instance of someone using shadow-related magic is shown to have catastrophic consequences, doesn't mean it isn't dangerous magic that can and probably will end up doing more damage than it did good.

You literally just said that anyone who uses void powers ends up going mad, and I gave multiple examples of people who have been using void magic for years and have retained their sanity. Any kind of magic is dangerous and if wielded badly will do more harm than good.