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  1. #41
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    To be fair - I am sure that USA can deal with China's navy without using nukes. Plus, nukes versus ships is actually a kinda shit system unless they are in port - you need basically direct hits, as evidenced by the various USA nuclear tests. Bigger ships just refused to sink (though were mission kills).
    And also ships (particularly carriers) are really fast and an air-burst or just above sea-level nuclear blast isn't nearly as big as people think of them. To put a number on it, to destroy the Greater Los Angeles area - not just downtown but all of it - the other side would need on the order of 30-40 nuclear weapons to do so. It's big and the sprawl is real. Now at sea, a Carrier traveling at over 30 knots (and potentially as high as 40 knots) could get out of that area quickly. And considering no known nuclear weapon utilizes optical or laser guidance and instead relies upon GPS and Inertial Guidance, most likely a nuclear weapon at sea is going to hit open waters and kill a lot of dolphin.

    The thermal radiation radius (burns) of a 200kt nuke detonated at sea is around 5 kilometers, with a window-breaking air blast extending out to 7km. A carrier traveling at 33 knots or 61 kph will clear that radius in minutes, well before the detected warhead arrives.

    The best defense a carrier has is to spread out and keep moving. It'll be very hard to hit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    The threat is still there. It will be there until the last nuke is gone. Until then it is on the table and will stay on the table.
    Also, I kinda doubt nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan would lead to WW3 and end of the world. Be realistic, USA and Russia would not unleash their arsenals in that case, anyone else does not even compare.
    So there are a lot of unknowns about this scenario. An India-Pakistan exchange could cause massive devastating fires as their cities and forests burn and pump the atmosphere full of soot. According to simulations, it only takes around 100-200 warheads to cause fires on the scale to cause a "year without summer".

    Secondly, duds. One reason the US and Russia have/had so many warheads and aimed multiple at the same target is the dud rate. In an arsenal of 500 weapons of almost any type - missiles, bombs, bullets, grenades, shells, mines, - there is going to be some percentage that fail to detonate for some reason or suffer some other kind of error. Maybe it was a manufacturing defect. Maybe it was from age from sitting in storage. During the 2000s, academic papers had the US dud rate pinned at about 5%. Or in other words, if we launched all 2500 warheads we had at the time, about 125 would fail to detonate. Yes, one hundred and twenty five. For Russia, the number is perhaps as high as 25%.

    And it's not just the warhead. There is also the launch vehicle. The use of ballistic missiles would constitute the largest simultaneous launch of rockets into the atmosphere in history by orders of magnitude. Countries with nuclear arsenals are pretty reliable at being able to launch one rocket at a time into space or the high atmosphere. But hundreds simultaneously? Or thousands? There are going to be rockets that fail to launch, rockets that break up in flight, rockets that fail to have stage separation, and so forth. So on top of the dud rate, you now have to account for a systemic rocket failure rate. Reliably, let's say 10% of nuclear weapons aren't going to reach their target for some reason.

    So why am I mentioning duds and what not? Because India and Pakistan's technology in both these areas is not as good as the US and Russia's by far, and what happens when a misfire / dud lands in Russia or China? Or Afghanistan?

    Or more directly, what happens when the fall out clouds from the smoking ruin that is where India once stood pass over China?

    We can't predict the geopolitical effects of what countries would do when they suffer a nuclear attack (of a sort) by accident.
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  2. #42
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    @Mythic-RaidLead

    We beat China from within by turning them into a liberal democracy. If you like geo-political stability and wealth than this is the only option, not war and mass death. Once the whole world is full of liberal democracies then we'll all give each other high fives because we defeated all of the evil socio-economic systems.
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  3. #43
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    @Mythic-RaidLead

    We beat China from within by turning them into a liberal democracy. If you like geo-political stability and wealth than this is the only option, not war and mass death. Once the whole world is full of liberal democracies then we'll all give each other high fives because we defeated all of the evil socio-economic systems.
    Correct, but also hilarious coming from a guy who has for years now steadfastly supported an ongoing attack on OUR liberal democracy from within.

    You say the words, but you don't mean them.
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  4. #44
    The Unstoppable Force CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    @Mythic-RaidLead

    We beat China from within by turning them into a liberal democracy. If you like geo-political stability and wealth than this is the only option, not war and mass death. Once the whole world is full of liberal democracies then we'll all give each other high fives because we defeated all of the evil socio-economic systems.
    Unless you're poor*
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  5. #45
    Considering the Chinese treat their criminals much more akin to how OP would prefer them treated, I'm quite surprised to hear he feels that they are "the enemy".

    That said, the cocktail of kool-aid they presumably quaff daily probably doesn't lend itself to sense.
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    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic-RaidLead View Post
    But military options including the use of thermonuclear weapons should be on the table.
    No.

    I could back that up with rationality, but this is an internet gaming subforum, you're getting meme videos from over a decade ago (yet somehow still perfectly relevant!)

    Last edited by Rozz; 2019-12-30 at 10:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  7. #47
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    No.

    I could back that up with rationality, but this is an internet gaming subforum, you're getting meme videos from over a decade ago (yet somehow still perfectly relevant!)

    Still an absolute classic and as good as the day it was posted.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2019-12-30 at 10:31 PM.
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  8. #48
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Correct, but also hilarious coming from a guy who has for years now steadfastly supported an ongoing attack on OUR liberal democracy from within.

    You say the words, but you don't mean them.
    It's called "keeping you on your toes".

    Think of Trump as the first raid boss. China the second.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's called "keeping you on your toes".

    Think of Trump as the first raid boss. China the second.
    I consider Trump more like the logical effect of a pokemon that attacks itself in its confusion. Except instead of being confused by a physic attack people like you were just stupid enough to think it was a good idea to deliberately attack yourself instead of swapping it out for Hillarymon.

    The electoral equivalent of cleaning a loaded firearm that you keep pointed at your face the entire time and try and tell me just because you shot your ear off instead of hitting your face it was a good idea.
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  10. #50
    The Unstoppable Force CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's called "keeping you on your toes".

    Think of Trump as the first raid boss. China the second.
    lol imagine thinking the US is just not as terrible as China even without Trump.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's called "keeping you on your toes".

    Think of Trump as the first raid boss. China the second.
    The problem is when one has so much twilight cult trash to clear before the first boss, that it becomes impossible to do within raid lockout.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic-RaidLead View Post
    Something needs to be done. I don't know what. But military options including the use of thermonuclear weapons should be on the table...
    And that's where I stopped reading.

    Between this, and your other posts, I'm more than certain you're just a burner account attempting to T-word people.

  13. #53
    Dreadlord Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Also, I kinda doubt nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan would lead to WW3 and end of the world. Be realistic, USA and Russia would not unleash their arsenals in that case, anyone else does not even compare.
    I can hardly see Russia responding to attack on china as well. I can hardly see why people fantasize that nuclear exchange between any two countries other than Russia and USA will cause global nuclear annihilation

  14. #54
    One of the scariest things about the 21th century is that we've likely got a new cold war coming, but one where the collective experience of the last time industrialised great powers went to war directly with each others is passing from living memory.

    Nukes should absolutely not be on the table as suggested by the OP here.

  15. #55
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    I can hardly see Russia responding to attack on china as well. I can hardly see why people fantasize that nuclear exchange between any two countries other than Russia and USA will cause global nuclear annihilation
    Well, when Russia detects a few thousand US ICBM launches, they have about 10 minutes in real time to figure out if all those missiles are heading to China or if some of them are headed to Russia. If they guess wrong, they lose their entire nuclear capability before they ever have a chance to use it. It is in Russia's best interests to make sure neither the US nor China survive such a scenario.

    Anyway, no matter how it plays out it gets staggeringly bad. Even if Russia doesn't launch, and Europe stays out of it as well, and India doesn't take the opportunity to nuke Pakistan and vis versa...

    Assuming everything stayed strictly between the US and China (And Japan and South Korea, China will definitely nuke to target the US Forces there), then the survivors have to deal with a world where the #2, #3 and #12 economies just ceased to exist, the #1 economy is horrifically mauled, or also gone, depending how many nukes China got through. Then there are massive bands of irradiated smoke and dust spreading over the northern hemisphere, with cities and forests burning uncontrollably for months. This will cause crops to fail all over the world, on top of losing the agriculture production of the US and China, thus leading to massive famines.

    But most of the population of the US, China, Japan, and the Koreas won't actually be dead. Probably only about a third of them died, and while that is still the better part of a billion people gone, that still leaves about 2 billion left. 2 billion people that are going to flee their homes since there is no infrastructure, and everything including the air itself is poison. 2 billion refugees covered in boils with loose teeth and varying degrees of radiation poisoning. Of course they will starve, as will most of the rest of the globe, as global temperatures plunge as the dust reaches the upper atmosphere.

    There is a reason nobody seriously considers the use of strategic nuclear weapons. The consequences are more horrific then anything any government actually has done, include Nazis and soviets. The sheer scale of suffering caused is insane.
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  16. #56
    Yooooo, where's my man @Ulmita? They talking about nukes here m8.

  17. #57
    Dreadlord Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Well, when Russia detects a few thousand US ICBM launches, they have about 10 minutes in real time to figure out if all those missiles are heading to China or if some of them are headed to Russia. If they guess wrong, they lose their entire nuclear capability before they ever have a chance to use it. It is in Russia's best interests to make sure neither the US nor China survive such a scenario.
    First of all ICBM are most likely reserved for Russia so any kind of nuclear bombing will be done from submarines positioned in South China Sea and any major nuclear power would be informed that the attack isn't targeted at them just to prevent a grave misunderstanding. However, I don't see a nuclear war as a possible scenario as long as both counties are governed by sane people. The worst that could happen is as tension rises and the war becomes imminent China seizes south Korea to prevent land invasion, which leads to naval blockade, by then China will have a coastal defense strong enough to prevent enemy landing, then the war ends with a stalemate.
    Last edited by Yadryonych; 2019-12-31 at 12:33 AM.

  18. #58
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  19. #59
    Human history has a repeating theme where there are taboos in war that some strong leader eventually breaks.

    1. In the Roman Republic, the military of appointed Roman provinces was to never ever cross the Rubicon river as that would be entering Italy proper. It was taboo. Julius Caesar broke it and sparked the Roman Civil War (which he won) .

    2. During the American Revolution in 1776, it was considered taboo / unmanly to flee from a battle. General George Washington not only broke that taboo multiple times, but he lost more battles than he won, but was never captured or forced to surrender, and instead fought the first modern guerrilla war campaign to defeat the British.

    3. During the French Revolution in 1795, a Royalist insurrection threatened to dislodge the revolutionary Directory as the government of France. It would likely have done so, but a young general named Napoleon Bonaparte changed history. Of all the generals, he was the only one willing to fire on civilians, breaking a HUGE taboo of war. This was Napoleon's "whiff of grapeshot" battle, or "let's give the civilians a whiff of grapeshot" as he swiveled all the cannons around on civilians to slaughter them all and end the insurrection. In return for this, Napoleon became a rock star with fame, fortune, control of the Army of Italy and it set him on the path to become Emperor.

    Currently there is a HUGE war taboo on using nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, I think the odds are great that, eventually, some strong leader is going to break that taboo as well and just lay waste to large areas of the planet until the Earth's environment is permanently crippled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  20. #60
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic-RaidLead View Post
    Something needs to be done. I don't know what. But military options including the use of thermonuclear weapons should be on the table. I doesn't mean we have to use them, but we should keep an open mind. Thermonuclear weapons need not be the 1.2 megaton giants that the public perceives them to be, smaller nuclear devices such as 100 kiloton warheads are an option.

    The Chinese Communist Party is guilty of perpetrating mass human rights violations such as mass murder of the Falun Gong, political prisoners, and a host of other issues. We need to send a message to the CCP that Chinese aggression will not be tolerated.

    In China's Crackdown on Uigers, Children ARE NOT SPARED WTF

    There are bigger worries with this totalitarian regime. China is a possible superpower in 2050. They could decide to ignore US warnings and straight up invade and take over Taiwan. Without proper deterrence, they WILL try it. I believe we need to seriously arm Taiwan with thermonuclear weapons OR extend our nuclear umbrella to protect them. We know China wants to take over another country:Taiwan, but we know they won't do it at a severe cost. If Taiwan had 1000 nuclear warheads each 100 kt to 5 mt, that could be a sufficient deterrence.

    But the question is this: Will nuclear weapons ever become obsolete? And if so, what are the alternatives? We need to hold back against China which will be the biggest threat to national security in the middle of the 21st century. All military options need to be on the table, including nuclear weapons.

    China plans to fight a nuclear war against America

    Good luck with that China, I mean seriously, good luck with that, you know you cannot win against the United States in this. In a nuclear war between US and China, we will win. But we do need to avoid millions of deaths. So here is a question:

    What systems are being developed that can effectively stop an all-out nuclear strike against the United States? Suppose China sends 1000 nukes ICBMs at us, how do we strike them all down before they reach their main targets? Seems to me there is research going on here, however I'm not sure if they can stop almost every ICBM from hitting the USA if they decide to launch hundreds or thousands of them at us.

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/20/1...defense-review
    No one who understands nuclear weapons wants to use them. There is a reason Mutual Assured Destruction is named that, they are not viable to use against a target that can respond in kind! China has ~260 strategic warheads, which may or may not be enough to effectively destroy the US (depends on your definition).

    Current US ICBMs (about 500 are left) are armed with a single warhead of 300kt to perhaps 475kt.
    Current US SLBMs (288) are armed with up to 8 warheads of 90kt to 475kt (maximum of 1,152 warheads total, for an average of 4 warheads per missile).
    The B-52s can be armed with up to 528 ALCMs with a variable warhead yield of 5-150kt.
    The only weapons of greater than 1Mt are the B83 gravity bombs, only really deliverable by the B-2.
    The only other nuclear weapons in the US are the various strategic and tactical B61 gravity bombs, with various yields of 0.3kt to 400kt.

    So, the US has already moved away from large yield warheads. One of the main reasons is nuclear weapons do not scale as well as you would think, and modern missiles are far more accurate than older ones. A single 1Mt warhead has less about 1/3 the destructive potential of 10 100kt warheads, while a single 5Mt warhead is only 15% as destructive as 50 100kt warheads.

    Nuclear warheads will only become obsolete if we invent something even more destructive, which I hope we do not, or we figure out how to actually rid the world of all of them, which isnt going to happen.
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