Military Options in dealing with China

[Yadryonych]

Okay, let's try to rephrase: Please don't kill millions of Chinese people just because your own economy is failing.

kkthnxbye

What do you mean? It's us or them!
*grumpy American face*

[Wilian]

Takes issue with regional human rights abuses.

Proposes a far greater abuse of human rights and dignity and one with global consequences, as a "solution".

You can't possibly be serious with this shit.

You don't see the end-game here. There can't be human rights abuses if there aren't humans.

[jeezusisacasual]

I will be leaving for Shenzhen for 12 days tomorrow morning, i am excited like always to visit a new nation. I am sure talking with the locals will be very different to the narratives that have been pushed forward. So can we avoid war for like 2 weeks?

[Monster Hunter]

As some one who lives 1,720 miles from chernobyl and we still had Medium levels of fallout and lost a years crops I can safely say no the US wouldn't win a nuclear war with any one, no one wins a nuclear war, that's kind of there point, its a great big don't fuck with each other threat, not a good tool for power projection, it's not the 21st century version of the gun boat, its not an effective threat when it harms the user almost as bad as the victim, its a double barreled gun only one barrel faces backwards.

China has committed and will continue to commit many atrocities and is a blight on the planet, but war with them is a non option due to both being nuclear.

The way to collapse China is to squeeze them economically and delegitimise the regime in the peoples eyes China is more exposed than North Korea and like the soviet Union has much the same weakness.

But even then I'd argue were allready collapsing communist China. The China now is a far cray from the China of 20 years ago or China of 50 years ago its still an oppressive communist regime that commits atrocitys but is far from the great leap period, China is reforming slowly based purely on nessesity in a globalised interconnected world. Its allready more akin to capitolists dystopia than the ideals of Marx.

[Skroe]

Okay, let's try to rephrase: Please don't kill millions of Chinese people just because your own economy is failing.

kkthnxbye

The US economy is in it's longest sustained expansion ever (growing at an average of 2.5%), with near record low unemployment and near non-existent inflation and a generally healthy investment and risk environment. The US has also significantly expanded its dominance of global finance and benefited from a global transformation in business and logistics as the internet matured. Of the 10 most profitable companies in the world in 2009, the only one left on that list is Microsoft, and the US share of that list has grown from 3 to 6.

The 2010s have been exceptionally good for the US from an economic perspective. And exceptionally bad for any adversary of the US (i.e. you).

So literally what in God's name are you talking about?

[Shadowferal]

The 2010s have been exceptionally good for the US from an economic perspective. And exceptionally bad for any adversary of the US (i.e. you).

So literally what in God's name are you talking about?

Post this here
So there's a point to be made that the wealthy getting richer and everybody else, not so much...

[Adam Jensen]

Something needs to be done. I don't know what. But military options including the use of thermonuclear weapons should be on the table. I doesn't mean we have to use them, but we should keep an open mind. Thermonuclear weapons need not be the 1.2 megaton giants that the public perceives them to be, smaller nuclear devices such as 100 kiloton warheads are an option.

It doesn't matter the size of the nuke. Use one and it's game over for the civilized world.

[JohnBrown1917]

maybe china should keep their military (and paramilitary) out of the rest of the world.

chinese fishing fleets alongside what passes for their "coast guard" regularly go into other nations fishing waters and steal their fish, because the chinese arent able to effectively manage their own waters. thats part of why they are so aggressively sending their military to the south china sea. most of asia has this same problem, but china actively goes and steals food from other smaller nations that cant always fight back.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/...ions-seas/amp/

The US should probably do the same then.

[Lynarii]

Fuck the UN.

Ah yes, he's advocating the extermination of millions of people but that's exactly the same as me thinking the US should keep their military out of the rest of the world.

Here's the thing. Yes, the OP is advocating for some seriously gross shit. But that's par for the course for the OP, he's been banned in the past for openly fantasizing about murder and torture, and it doesn't seem like he learned much from that. However, it's also the case that the vast majority of people in this thread (minus Kokolums who loves anything that he can use to say that a US civil war is coming) are of the clear opinion that the OP is insane and that nuking China would be an absurd and monstrous act.

None of that justifies being an extremist in reverse though. When it comes to the laws regarding territorial waters and international waters, that is some really important stuff that countries CAN'T just sit out of and let play out however. The majority of the world agreed to the rules on that because the way it was without them, with piracy on every major trade route and literal murder over fishing spots, was bad for everyone. The US military has done some shit things, but it's role in maintaining a degree of order and safety on the world's oceans is an important one that can't be tossed out without consequences.

[Yadryonych]

The US economy is in it's longest sustained expansion ever (growing at an average of 2.5%), with near record low unemployment and near non-existent inflation and a generally healthy investment and risk environment. The US has also significantly expanded its dominance of global finance and benefited from a global transformation in business and logistics as the internet matured. Of the 10 most profitable companies in the world in 2009, the only one left on that list is Microsoft, and the US share of that list has grown from 3 to 6.

The 2010s have been exceptionally good for the US from an economic perspective. And exceptionally bad for any adversary of the US (i.e. you).

I only wish Trump tweeted exactly this text word for word just to see peaches rushing to dismantle it and prove every word wrong

[Skroe]

I only wish Trump tweeted exactly this text word for word just to see peaches rushing to dismantle it and prove every word wrong

Trump has had nothing to do with it, and in fact has been an hindrance. While economic decoupling with China and cleaving the world into an American-sphere and a Chinese-sphere is both necessary and an inevitability, he has gone about doing it the most profoundly stupid way (tarrifs).

In the end, it was Trump who decided on day one to abandon the Trans Pacific Partnership, the biggest US Geopolitical self-own in sixty years. The US will almost certainly rejoin TPP in the post-Trump era, but the time lost in isolating China through a multilateral effort - something it's neighbors are and remain very eager to do - only hurts us in the end.

No matter what Trump says or does economically, in the end, he is the self declared "Tarrif Man" who abandoned TPP. He has zero-claim on anything positive going on in the economy.

[draynay]

Does advocating the nuclear destruction of another country constitute "nation bashing"?

[Monster Hunter]

Trump has had nothing to do with it, and in fact has been an hindrance. While economic decoupling with China and cleaving the world into an American-sphere and a Chinese-sphere is both necessary and an inevitability, he has gone about doing it the most profoundly stupid way (tarrifs).

In the end, it was Trump who decided on day one to abandon the Trans Pacific Partnership, the biggest US Geopolitical self-own in sixty years. The US will almost certainly rejoin TPP in the post-Trump era, but the time lost in isolating China through a multilateral effort - something it's neighbors are and remain very eager to do - only hurts us in the end.

No matter what Trump says or does economically, in the end, he is the self declared "Tarrif Man" who abandoned TPP. He has zero-claim on anything positive going on in the economy.

History of us soviet economic relations shows why trumps stratagy is wrong.

Americas economy is capitolistic enough that any exposure to it from a heavily regulated economy is toxic to that economy, hence why people in the UK do have legit fears of a UK-US trade deal that involves health care and drugs.

[CostinR]

The day that nuclear weapons are used in an armed conflict is the day that the post-WW2 world order comes crashing down.

Harry Truman made a famed decision to limit the Korean war, while others notably MacArthur wanted to expand it. Ultimately Truman won out and instead of a war that could have easily both turned into a total war that might have turned nuclear between Soviets and Americans, instead the war was limited in size and scope.

In making that decision, that was expanded by Kennedy and Kruschev in resolving the Cuban Missile crisis, Truman ultimately prevented WW3 ( which many people at the time believed would inevitably happen ) while also not surrendering the democratic principles the United States stood for.

Of course the United States should have a strong and formidable military and a modern nuclear arsenal, but using nukes is a last resort for a last resort ( war between China and the US ). The moment you normalize the usage of nuclear weapons is the moment everything generations of American leaders worked for over decades was for nothing.

[Kellhound]

It is Chinese water though, it has Chinese boats, islands and their army in it.


There's an issue though.
People call him crazy for openly saying this. But with all the propaganda from the last few years more and more people start believing that China is an existential threat that needs to be eliminated.
Yes, he's terrible for calling for the direct killing of millions.
But I also see a lot of "moderates" calling for actions that would indirectly kill millions, they want to destroy the nation.


The problem with "international law" is that most of those things come from a time when the US and its buddies literally ruled the world.
That's akin to constitutional monarchies.. "Yeah, I am king because the law says so.", well no shit, he made that law in the first place.
The majority of the world didn't really have a choice.

That is NOT how territorial water is established. You have to have recognized legal control of natural land that is never below water to establish territorial water, and the land has to be habitable to claim economic zones. China made the islands, and they have no recognized claim. China has agreed to the legal definitions of UNCLOS.

[Temp name]

It is Chinese water though, it has Chinese boats, islands and their army in it.

So if the US goes there and makes a bunch of islands, they can be like "US waters now, get out China"?

Because those islands were man-made, so surely the US would be allowed to make their own islands too?
THAT is the reason UN law states the islands must be natural, because otherwise that would happen EVERYWHERE with oil, with countries competing to be the first to make their new islands.

[Ulmita]

Something needs to be done. I don't know what. But military options including the use of thermonuclear weapons should be on the table. I doesn't mean we have to use them, but we should keep an open mind. Thermonuclear weapons need not be the 1.2 megaton giants that the public perceives them to be, smaller nuclear devices such as 100 kiloton warheads are an option.

The Chinese Communist Party is guilty of perpetrating mass human rights violations such as mass murder of the Falun Gong, political prisoners, and a host of other issues. We need to send a message to the CCP that Chinese aggression will not be tolerated.

In China's Crackdown on Uigers, Children ARE NOT SPARED WTF

There are bigger worries with this totalitarian regime. China is a possible superpower in 2050. They could decide to ignore US warnings and straight up invade and take over Taiwan. Without proper deterrence, they WILL try it. I believe we need to seriously arm Taiwan with thermonuclear weapons OR extend our nuclear umbrella to protect them. We know China wants to take over another country:Taiwan, but we know they won't do it at a severe cost. If Taiwan had 1000 nuclear warheads each 100 kt to 5 mt, that could be a sufficient deterrence.

But the question is this: Will nuclear weapons ever become obsolete? And if so, what are the alternatives? We need to hold back against China which will be the biggest threat to national security in the middle of the 21st century. All military options need to be on the table, including nuclear weapons.

China plans to fight a nuclear war against America

Good luck with that China, I mean seriously, good luck with that, you know you cannot win against the United States in this. In a nuclear war between US and China, we will win. But we do need to avoid millions of deaths. So here is a question:

What systems are being developed that can effectively stop an all-out nuclear strike against the United States? Suppose China sends 1000 nukes ICBMs at us, how do we strike them all down before they reach their main targets? Seems to me there is research going on here, however I'm not sure if they can stop almost every ICBM from hitting the USA if they decide to launch hundreds or thousands of them at us.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/20/1...defense-review

Some observations here:
a) No one know the exact number of nukes that each country has but their governments
b) Warheads in their terminal phase are 99% not interceptable by any existing technology. This means that if you don't destroy them while taking off, are almost guarantee to hit somewhere close to their target
c) If USA arms Taiwan with thermonuclear weapons, what stops China arming Iran or any other country that wants to hurt the US? Bad Bad Bad idea
d) China WILL BE the next superpower even before 2050. USA needs to accept that and play around this. War is not the answer

[muto]

Great idea! Nuke a country that also has nukes.

[Easo]

No, those islands were already there.
China inhabited them to make a claim.
China, just like the rest of the world, didn't have much of a choice. But it's theirs now and there is nothing you can do about it, so I suggest you stay in your little country and leave the rest of the world alone.

They didn't have a choice in what? Observing the international law to which they have agreed? Vietnam and Philippines did not build artificial islands. Why China did, then?
Ah, little country does not count? You remind me of some Russians who said that small countries have no right to exist. Good to see you supporting imperialism.

[Kellhound]

No, those islands were already there.
China inhabited them to make a claim.
China, just like the rest of the world, didn't have much of a choice. But it's theirs now and there is nothing you can do about it, so I suggest you stay in your little country and leave the rest of the world alone.

Wrong. All of the occupied "islands" either were only exposed at low tide or were insufficiently large enough to sustain human life. They were all also claimed by other countries with stronger claims. We all know you support occupation=ownership because it benefits your country of loyalty, Russia.

My country isnt little by any measure, unlike either country you are known to be associated with.....