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  1. #101
    Banned Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Of course yes, mix capitalism with a democratic government and universal social rights and then liberal democracy is the result.
    The five billion people you exploit worldwide disagree.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic-RaidLead View Post
    Why should we replace the native population with immigrants?
    Who made that notion?
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  3. #103
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    I feel this video is relevant to this topic. Crony capitalism isn't the solution, but a stronger democracy.


  4. #104
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I am not a believer of certain economic system worth. I think they all fail at some point. Think of it like a cycle, no economic system can live forever without economic collapse.

    In capitalism, the gap between rich & poor grow to a point where the poor people will at some point retaliate.
    In communism, people will want more because they are not satisfied with what they have.

    At the end of the day, you can incorporate the two systems every now & then to avoid economic downfall. This is especially happening in the US where socialist ideas are implemented every now & then.
    Don't think of in terms of capitalism, or socialism, or communism but rather which system is the most compatible with democracy. Democracy is really the system that can survive through the ages because the people are allowed to course-correct at each election cycle. In addition because the voters are the ones with the ultimate blame in a democracy it makes little sense for the people to rise up against their own product.
    -------
    Quote of the month:
    All interesting problems are soluble.
    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  5. #105
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Don't think of in terms of capitalism, or socialism, or communism but rather which system is the most compatible with democracy. Democracy is really the system that can survive through the ages because the people are allowed to course-correct at each election cycle. In addition because the voters are the ones with the ultimate blame in a democracy it makes little sense for the people to rise up against their own product.
    Princeton university says the data say we are an oligarchy so course correcting will take quite a lot of work.

  6. #106
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    Here is the type of "capitalism" that is promoting. Great for the super rich, slavery for everyone else.


  7. #107
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Princeton university says the data say we are an oligarchy so course correcting will take quite a lot of work.
    What's the *objective* criteria for being an oligarchy?
    -------
    Quote of the month:
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    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  8. #108
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    What's the *objective* criteria for being an oligarchy?
    They tracked sentiment of things the populace wanted, to what degree the wealthy wanted it. And saw how it affected the political outcome. There was something like a 0.3% change when the bottom majority wanted something with support from 20% all the way to 80%, it didn't affect what bills were passed into law. But when the wealthy class had strong support of something iirc there was a 20 point or so difference which is way more significant than a third of a point.

  9. #109
    The Unstoppable Force CommunismWillWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saninicus View Post
    Social security, Medicare, don't exist here in America?
    That is not what socialism is.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.
    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.
    FULLY AUTOMATED GAY LUXURY SPACE COMMUNISM

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    That is not what socialism is.
    Government social spending is not socialism? It is social spending which is part of socialism. Social democracy.

  11. #111
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    They tracked sentiment of things the populace wanted, to what degree the wealthy wanted it. And saw how it affected the political outcome. There was something like a 0.3% change when the bottom majority wanted something with support from 20% all the way to 80%, it didn't affect what bills were passed into law. But when the wealthy class had strong support of something iirc there was a 20 point or so difference which is way more significant than a third of a point.
    Sounds objective.
    -------
    Quote of the month:
    All interesting problems are soluble.
    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  12. #112
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Sounds objective.
    It is objective.

    If you poll a million people and track what laws they support and note their economic background that is hard data.

    Or do you think that is subjective?

    "Do you support a lower minimum wage"

    "After polling 1 million people of various economic backgrounds people 72% of people in the top 1% support a minimum wage decrease."

    You mean to say that wouldn't be "objective"? The fuck did you think I meant when I said "sentiment of things the populace wanted"?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    This is especially happening in the US where socialist ideas are implemented every now & then.
    That is not how it works.
    Capitalism versus socialism is about who is in charge. Who has the final say in things?
    Are it the people who create the value and production?
    Or are it people who "own" things?

    It's always sad to see how little understanding people have of these things.
    Even 15 minutes of actually reading into socialism would inform people so much more. Hell, Friedrich Engels literally made a FAQ and still people are too lazy to read on it: https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...1/prin-com.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Don't think of in terms of capitalism, or socialism, or communism but rather which system is the most compatible with democracy. Democracy is really the system that can survive through the ages because the people are allowed to course-correct at each election cycle. In addition because the voters are the ones with the ultimate blame in a democracy it makes little sense for the people to rise up against their own product.
    So you're advocating a system in which the people have democratic say over the economy?
    Since when did you go so far left?

  14. #114
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    It is objective.

    If you poll a million people and track what laws they support and note their economic background that is hard data.

    Or do you think that is subjective?

    "Do you support a lower minimum wage"

    "After polling 1 million people of various economic backgrounds people 72% of people in the top 1% support a minimum wage decrease."

    You mean to say that wouldn't be "objective"? The fuck did you think I meant when I said "sentiment of things the populace wanted"?
    If it comes from how people feel then yeah it's subjective by definition. Objectivity is about a 3rd person criterion that is independant from the personal opinion of individuals. That's what it means for something to be objective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So you're advocating a system in which the people have democratic say over the economy?
    Since when did you go so far left?
    Democracy isn't right or left. Both the far left and the far right hate democracy because it allows the middling majority to easily undue their extremists policies.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-01-01 at 03:14 PM.
    -------
    Quote of the month:
    All interesting problems are soluble.
    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  15. #115
    I watched the first minute of the video, and I am so glad we invented capitalism in 1970. It's reduced poverty by 80% since then! WoW!

    It's an opinion piece. Nothing more.

  16. #116
    Capitalism works because it exploits lesser fortunates elsewhere... such as factories in China to produce products for the West at a fraction of the cost.

    We already got people complaining that minimum wages shouldn't be raised for labour, while ignoring this concept called "inflation".

    Can't imagine Capitalism lasting the next century with the way it's going, more so when more sectors get taken over with automation and unemployment sky rockets. It exists to make the rich richer and the poor poorer with an ever increasing gap of equity. It's bound to break eventually...

  17. #117
    I used to work for a company that showed people how to comply with OSHA, FPA and DOT regulations. "over regulation" doesn't happen because of government power grabbing, it happens because business owners, as a whole, are the biggest bunch of cry baby loophole finders, in the history of man.

    People used to die in factory fires all the time. The factory owners didn't give two shits about safety. All they cared about is the bottom line. So the government stepped in and said, "you need some fire suppression". So factory owners, would put a bucket of water in the center of the factory. Government would come back and say, "that's not sufficient" because it wasn't. So then FO would get a single fire extinguisher for a 20,000 sq.ft. factory. So now the government has to make new rules about the number of extinguishers per square foot. The business loopholes again, the government makes new laws, so on and so forth.

    This is how it ALWAYS is.The businesses try to get away with everything they can instead of following the spirit of the law, so the government has to get more and more specific to close more and more loopholes. It never ends and its businesses fault. They are like fucking children always testing boundaries to see what they can get away with.
    M.A.A.A. Make America Adult Again

  18. #118
    Banned Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Democracy isn't right or left. Both the far left and the far right hate democracy because it allows the middling majority to easily undue their extremists policies.
    So much wrong with this.

    Democracy is definitely left!
    Originally the right wanted to keep the monarchy.
    Next they wanted to only let landowners and the rich vote.
    Then they wanted to keep democracy to the women only.
    Then they thought only white people should be allowed to vote.
    The right has always been about keeping democracy as contained as possible.

    The far left does absolutely not hate democracy. They hate our current system for not being democratic enough.
    Our parliaments definitely are not democratic enough. You see this all over the world; so many countries with governments who don't have majority support. Policies that get enacted when less than a fifth of the people support them.

  19. #119
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    If it comes from how people feel then yeah it's subjective by definition. Objectivity is about a 3rd person criterion that is independant from the personal opinion of individuals. That's what it means for something to be objective.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Democracy isn't right or left. Both the far left and the far right hate democracy because it allows the middling majority to easily undue their extremists policies.
    I don't think you know what the fuck those words mean...

    A collection of data points of what people support is an objective measure of what people support. I don't know what you don't get here?

    If 1 million people out of 1.2 million feel that it is wrong to murder people 83% of people feel it is wrong to murder people - is an objective FACT. What is hard to follow here?

  20. #120
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I don't think you know what the fuck those words mean...

    A collection of data points of what people support is an objective measure of what people support. I don't know what you don't get here?

    If 1 million people out of 1.2 million feel that it is wrong to murder people 83% of people feel it is wrong to murder people - is an objective FACT. What is hard to follow here?
    No because first you need a precise and objective criteria for what makes an oligarchy an oligarchy. Many people agreeing with some vaguely defined term means little to nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So much wrong with this.

    Democracy is definitely left!
    Originally the right wanted to keep the monarchy.
    Next they wanted to only let landowners and the rich vote.
    Then they wanted to keep democracy to the women only.
    Then they thought only white people should be allowed to vote.
    The right has always been about keeping democracy as contained as possible.

    The far left does absolutely not hate democracy. They hate our current system for not being democratic enough.
    Our parliaments definitely are not democratic enough. You see this all over the world; so many countries with governments who don't have majority support. Policies that get enacted when less than a fifth of the people support them.
    Okay so in that case i'm a leftist on the matter of democracy, but a neo-liberal when it comes to socio-economics. *shrug*
    -------
    Quote of the month:
    All interesting problems are soluble.
    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

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