If You Hate Poverty, You Should Love Capitalism

[PC2]

I am not a believer of certain economic system worth. I think they all fail at some point. Think of it like a cycle, no economic system can live forever without economic collapse.

In capitalism, the gap between rich & poor grow to a point where the poor people will at some point retaliate.
In communism, people will want more because they are not satisfied with what they have.

At the end of the day, you can incorporate the two systems every now & then to avoid economic downfall. This is especially happening in the US where socialist ideas are implemented every now & then.

Don't think of in terms of capitalism, or socialism, or communism but rather which system is the most compatible with democracy. Democracy is really the system that can survive through the ages because the people are allowed to course-correct at each election cycle. In addition because the voters are the ones with the ultimate blame in a democracy it makes little sense for the people to rise up against their own product.

[Themius]

Don't think of in terms of capitalism, or socialism, or communism but rather which system is the most compatible with democracy. Democracy is really the system that can survive through the ages because the people are allowed to course-correct at each election cycle. In addition because the voters are the ones with the ultimate blame in a democracy it makes little sense for the people to rise up against their own product.

Princeton university says the data say we are an oligarchy so course correcting will take quite a lot of work.

[Stormspark]

Here is the type of "capitalism" that is promoting. Great for the super rich, slavery for everyone else.

[PC2]

Princeton university says the data say we are an oligarchy so course correcting will take quite a lot of work.

What's the *objective* criteria for being an oligarchy?

[Themius]

What's the *objective* criteria for being an oligarchy?

They tracked sentiment of things the populace wanted, to what degree the wealthy wanted it. And saw how it affected the political outcome. There was something like a 0.3% change when the bottom majority wanted something with support from 20% all the way to 80%, it didn't affect what bills were passed into law. But when the wealthy class had strong support of something iirc there was a 20 point or so difference which is way more significant than a third of a point.

[JohnBrown1917]

Social security, Medicare, don't exist here in America?

That is not what socialism is.

[Themius]

That is not what socialism is.

Government social spending is not socialism? It is social spending which is part of socialism. Social democracy.

[PC2]

They tracked sentiment of things the populace wanted, to what degree the wealthy wanted it. And saw how it affected the political outcome. There was something like a 0.3% change when the bottom majority wanted something with support from 20% all the way to 80%, it didn't affect what bills were passed into law. But when the wealthy class had strong support of something iirc there was a 20 point or so difference which is way more significant than a third of a point.

Sounds objective.

[Themius]

Sounds objective.

It is objective.

If you poll a million people and track what laws they support and note their economic background that is hard data.

Or do you think that is subjective?

"Do you support a lower minimum wage"

"After polling 1 million people of various economic backgrounds people 72% of people in the top 1% support a minimum wage decrease."

You mean to say that wouldn't be "objective"? The fuck did you think I meant when I said "sentiment of things the populace wanted"?

[PC2]

It is objective.

If you poll a million people and track what laws they support and note their economic background that is hard data.

Or do you think that is subjective?

"Do you support a lower minimum wage"

"After polling 1 million people of various economic backgrounds people 72% of people in the top 1% support a minimum wage decrease."

You mean to say that wouldn't be "objective"? The fuck did you think I meant when I said "sentiment of things the populace wanted"?

If it comes from how people feel then yeah it's subjective by definition. Objectivity is about a 3rd person criterion that is independant from the personal opinion of individuals. That's what it means for something to be objective.

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So you're advocating a system in which the people have democratic say over the economy?
Since when did you go so far left?

Democracy isn't right or left. Both the far left and the far right hate democracy because it allows the middling majority to easily undue their extremists policies.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I watched the first minute of the video, and I am so glad we invented capitalism in 1970. It's reduced poverty by 80% since then! WoW!

It's an opinion piece. Nothing more.

[Daedius]

Capitalism works because it exploits lesser fortunates elsewhere... such as factories in China to produce products for the West at a fraction of the cost.

We already got people complaining that minimum wages shouldn't be raised for labour, while ignoring this concept called "inflation".

Can't imagine Capitalism lasting the next century with the way it's going, more so when more sectors get taken over with automation and unemployment sky rockets. It exists to make the rich richer and the poor poorer with an ever increasing gap of equity. It's bound to break eventually...

[Bodakane]

I used to work for a company that showed people how to comply with OSHA, FPA and DOT regulations. "over regulation" doesn't happen because of government power grabbing, it happens because business owners, as a whole, are the biggest bunch of cry baby loophole finders, in the history of man.

People used to die in factory fires all the time. The factory owners didn't give two shits about safety. All they cared about is the bottom line. So the government stepped in and said, "you need some fire suppression". So factory owners, would put a bucket of water in the center of the factory. Government would come back and say, "that's not sufficient" because it wasn't. So then FO would get a single fire extinguisher for a 20,000 sq.ft. factory. So now the government has to make new rules about the number of extinguishers per square foot. The business loopholes again, the government makes new laws, so on and so forth.

This is how it ALWAYS is.The businesses try to get away with everything they can instead of following the spirit of the law, so the government has to get more and more specific to close more and more loopholes. It never ends and its businesses fault. They are like fucking children always testing boundaries to see what they can get away with.

[Themius]

If it comes from how people feel then yeah it's subjective by definition. Objectivity is about a 3rd person criterion that is independant from the personal opinion of individuals. That's what it means for something to be objective.

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Democracy isn't right or left. Both the far left and the far right hate democracy because it allows the middling majority to easily undue their extremists policies.

I don't think you know what the fuck those words mean...

A collection of data points of what people support is an objective measure of what people support. I don't know what you don't get here?

If 1 million people out of 1.2 million feel that it is wrong to murder people 83% of people feel it is wrong to murder people - is an objective FACT. What is hard to follow here?

[PC2]

I don't think you know what the fuck those words mean...

A collection of data points of what people support is an objective measure of what people support. I don't know what you don't get here?

If 1 million people out of 1.2 million feel that it is wrong to murder people 83% of people feel it is wrong to murder people - is an objective FACT. What is hard to follow here?

No because first you need a precise and objective criteria for what makes an oligarchy an oligarchy. Many people agreeing with some vaguely defined term means little to nothing.

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So much wrong with this.

Democracy is definitely left!
Originally the right wanted to keep the monarchy.
Next they wanted to only let landowners and the rich vote.
Then they wanted to keep democracy to the women only.
Then they thought only white people should be allowed to vote.
The right has always been about keeping democracy as contained as possible.

The far left does absolutely not hate democracy. They hate our current system for not being democratic enough.
Our parliaments definitely are not democratic enough. You see this all over the world; so many countries with governments who don't have majority support. Policies that get enacted when less than a fifth of the people support them.

Okay so in that case i'm a leftist on the matter of democracy, but a neo-liberal when it comes to socio-economics. *shrug*

[PC2]

Nope, that doesn't work.
You claim to want a democracy but think filthy rich individuals should have all the power in our society and muddy democratic proces by creating crisis.

Well I support democracy, so what category would you put me under?

[Themius]

No because first you need a precise and objective criteria for what makes an oligarchy an oligarchy. Many people agreeing with some vaguely defined term means little to nothing.

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Okay so in that case i'm a leftist on the matter of democracy, but a neo-liberal when it comes to socio-economics. *shrug*

The question wasn’t if they think we are an oligarchy. THE DATA of what different classes wanted and the outcome is what showed we function as an oligarchy.

[PC2]

The question wasn’t if they think we are an oligarchy. THE DATA of what different classes wanted and the outcome is what showed we function as an oligarchy.

But our society is a liberal democracy which is the best system. So as long as oligarchy is compatible with liberal democracy then it's not the end of the world.

[Vash The Stampede]

Yanis Varoufakis says it best in this video, which explains the failures of Capitalism currently right now.

[PC2]

I'm not watching those vids. Just tell us what his policy solution is.