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  1. #241
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stricks View Post
    You're right... No characters should ever be related and all character's powers should be fully explained in every detail imaginable in a fantasy setting...
    That is quite a strawman, and you know it well. The problem isn't about characters being related or not, it's about getting new powers as the plot demands without any explanation or introduction whatsoever. Hopefully, you realise that there can be a middle ground between "fully explained in every detail imaginable" and "complete asspull", which is what we are being presented with.

    Case in point, Sylvanas. Ok, we know she's an accomplished marksman, a formidable melee fighter, and has the ability to raise the dead. But all of a sudden, she kamehameha's Saurfang and uses a bunch of skills never seen before during the completely lopsided fight with the LK.

    Where did all that stuff come from? "Oh it's the Jailor, guys" i.e. an "explanation" that doesn't actually explain anything. It's almost the same !@#$ they pulled in Cata with Thrall.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  2. #242
    I'm surprised she hasn't been retconned already.
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  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    That is quite a strawman, and you know it well. The problem isn't about characters being related or not, it's about getting new powers as the plot demands without any explanation or introduction whatsoever. Hopefully, you realise that there can be a middle ground between "fully explained in every detail imaginable" and "complete asspull", which is what we are being presented with.

    Case in point, Sylvanas. Ok, we know she's an accomplished marksman, a formidable melee fighter, and has the ability to raise the dead. But all of a sudden, she kamehameha's Saurfang and uses a bunch of skills never seen before during the completely lopsided fight with the LK.

    Where did all that stuff come from? "Oh it's the Jailor, guys" i.e. an "explanation" that doesn't actually explain anything. It's almost the same !@#$ they pulled in Cata with Thrall.
    By that definition, 50% of characters in warcraft are Mary Sues. Sylvanas at least has explained source, Jaina doesnt even have that.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Case in point, Sylvanas. Ok, we know she's an accomplished marksman, a formidable melee fighter, and has the ability to raise the dead. But all of a sudden, she kamehameha's Saurfang and uses a bunch of skills never seen before during the completely lopsided fight with the LK.

    Where did all that stuff come from? "Oh it's the Jailor, guys" i.e. an "explanation" that doesn't actually explain anything. It's almost the same !@#$ they pulled in Cata with Thrall.
    Eh, that actually is an explanation. We don't know the details ofc, but considering powerful beings in the world of warcraft universe are able to pass on powers it's not surprising and everyone already speculated she had received power as such.

    Gaining power through the Power of Mary-Sue would be if she was just a marksman and able to raise dead as you explain and then magically do greater things just because she "wanted it" a little bit more and focused. Or trained by herself just harder. That has an explanation which doesn't give an explanation. The former does however.
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  5. #245
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    By that definition, 50% of characters in warcraft are Mary Sues. Sylvanas at least has explained source, Jaina doesnt even have that.
    The funny part is that this is probably correct, with the golden *wink wink* trio being Sylvie, Anduin and Jaina.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Gaining power through the Power of Mary-Sue would be if she was just a marksman and able to raise dead as you explain and then magically do greater things just because she "wanted it".
    Tbh there is little difference between pulling new powers straight out of Blizzard's rectum, or taking them from a "jailor" that was just pulled from the same place.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2020-01-05 at 01:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Tbh there is little difference between pulling new powers straight out of Blizzard's rectum, or taking them from a "jailor" that was just pulled from the same place.
    It's quite a big difference... considering your wording that means everyone and everything is a mary sue because every writer needs pull something from where the power comes from.
    What would be a valid source of power that isn't from some sort of "jailor"?
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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    By that definition, 50% of characters in warcraft are Mary Sues. Sylvanas at least has explained source, Jaina doesnt even have that.
    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=32599/securing-a-future

    What was that? An actual in game quest that explains things and defies your "Jaina is a Mary Sue" narrative? Especially since her feats are nothing compared to the bullshit Sylvanas pulled off.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=32599/securing-a-future

    What was that? An actual in game quest that explains things and defies your "Jaina is a Mary Sue" narrative? Especially since her feats are nothing compared to the bullshit Sylvanas pulled off.
    What was that? Oh, she drained some remnants from the room, when the true source of the power was Lei Shen himself. Power that was eaten by some whelp. And are you trying to tell me that the stupid boat trick is nothing?

    Also, she no longer uses that staff. You should at least pretend that you are not her fan next time.

  9. #249
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    It's quite a big difference... considering your wording that means everyone and everything is a mary sue because every writer needs pull something from where the power comes from.
    The difference is HOW you put it - as they always say, the devil is in the details. E.g. Kaelthas and his followers in Outland went a little too crazy. Why? Because they needed mana (as stated previously in WC3), but their traditional source was unavailable at the time (also developed in WC3) so it isn't like they had a lot of choices. Thus they started to get high on fel, which (as stated back in WC2) is some pretty strong !@$%, with serious secondary effects. As much as the story in BC was a mess in other aspects, this one part was solid.

    But now we have a jailor whom we have never heard before, who hasn't been even slightly hinted at in the past, the extent and nature of whose powers is conveniently unknown and whom motivations are unfathomable. If you compare him to e.g. Sargeras (whom we knew very little about during early WoW, but still we knew he was there, and why) you can see why this TeH JaILor EmPOwErED hEr is an asspull - an asspull by proxy, if you prefer, and it strongly contributes to Sylvie's Sue-ification.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2020-01-05 at 02:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The difference is HOW you put it - as they always say, the devil is in the details. E.g. Kaelthas and his followers in Outland went a little too crazy. Why? Because they needed mana (as stated previously in WC3), but their traditional source was unavailable at the time (also developed in WC3) so it isn't like they had a lot of choices. Thus they started to get high on fel, which (as stated back in WC2) is some pretty strong !@$%, with serious secondary effects. As much as the story in BC was a mess in other aspects, this one part was solid.

    But now we have a jailor whom we have never heard before, who hasn't been even slightly hinted at in the past, the extent and nature of whose powers is conveniently unknown and whom motivations are unfathomable. If you compare him to e.g. Sargeras (whom we knew very little about during early WoW, but still we knew he was there, and why) you can see why this TeH JaILor EmPOwErED hEr is an asspull - an asspull by proxy, if you prefer, and it strongly contributes to Sylvie's Sue-ification.
    When should you hear about something for the first time for it to be legit? Impossible to write all lore ever needed for any world you create. You build as you go on. The thing that only matters is if it makes sense or not. Someone having dominion over dead souls in warcraft isn't farfetched and instead it is expected even if we haven't heard of such.

    You have to take the lore into context of established lore. It makes sense.
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  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Sounds like Luke with Boobs. Desert child who had no training yet was able to do enough force to get by. Then becomes very powerful with very little training (few days with Yoda. While Rey had weeks with Luke and more with other force trained people.)
    Luke had months with Yoda Rey had days with Luke lol to be specific about 2.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Burden of proof, lol. You tell me how she supposedly is? Because I know you have nothing. This is just another stupid "I don't like this character SO THEY MUST BE THE AUTHOR'S SELF-INSERT111111111111".

    - - - Updated - - -



    Anduin is Golden's Mary Sue. Not a self-insert of herself by any means, but just her blatantly favored character that she wants to be perfect with his only "flaws" being entirely fake ones.
    He is a self insert of a sort he's her idealized concept of a son.

  12. #252
    Sylvanas is just like Gerald from Witcher. Full blown, overrated Mary Sue with no depth.

    Sylvie is there for fan service. Blizzard knows desperate gamers are ready to pay anything to see some 2D elf titties.

  13. #253
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    When should you hear about something for the first time for it to be legit? Impossible to write all lore ever needed for any world you create. You build as you go on. The thing that only matters is if it makes sense or not. Someone having dominion over dead souls in warcraft isn't farfetched and instead it is expected even if we haven't heard of such.

    You have to take the lore into context of established lore. It makes sense.
    You introduce it slowly, over time. If you want a jailor, you hint at it in MoP or WoD, let it be during Legion, and tease it a bit more during BfA. The way they've done it is barely a pretext (and a cheap one, at that) for Sylvie's OPness. Because it doesn't matter sense to pull things of thin air, other than through appeal to authority, aka "they are the authors and can do whatever the !@#$ they want" - which is their prerrogative after all, but hardly makes for good storytelling.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You introduce it slowly, over time. If you want a jailor, you hint at it in MoP or WoD, let it be during Legion, and tease it a bit more during BfA. The way they've done it is barely a pretext (and a cheap one, at that) for Sylvie's OPness. Because it doesn't matter sense to pull things of thin air, other than through appeal to authority, aka "they are the authors and can do whatever the !@#$ they want" - which is their prerrogative after all, but hardly makes for good storytelling.
    We do now know who the Jailor is yet though... it might be a character we have known for a long time. There are so many gods and powerful beings that it can be almost anything. I don't understand why it's an ass-pull if there is one more that haven't been relevant yet. Making a deal with a death god or being to become powerful isn't really odd... there have been deals for power for as long as warcraft were a thing.

    Also people speculated LONG before it was revealed that she most likely made a deal with some death entity... which wouldn't be possible if it was an "ass-pull".

    There is a difference in quality of writing and if a character is a Mary-Sue or not. It's a logical reason why she is powerful within the rules of the universe they've created. Does it lack build up? Sure... which is a different matter. To me it sounds very much that you don't like the writing, which is warranted, and thus it's mary-sue.
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  15. #255
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    That is quite a strawman, and you know it well. The problem isn't about characters being related or not, it's about getting new powers as the plot demands without any explanation or introduction whatsoever. Hopefully, you realise that there can be a middle ground between "fully explained in every detail imaginable" and "complete asspull", which is what we are being presented with.

    Case in point, Sylvanas. Ok, we know she's an accomplished marksman, a formidable melee fighter, and has the ability to raise the dead. But all of a sudden, she kamehameha's Saurfang and uses a bunch of skills never seen before during the completely lopsided fight with the LK.

    Where did all that stuff come from? "Oh it's the Jailor, guys" i.e. an "explanation" that doesn't actually explain anything. It's almost the same !@#$ they pulled in Cata with Thrall.
    I'd argue even her powers before that came out of left field. OK, she's super agile and an accomplished marks(wo)man, that's perfectly fine, she was one in life after all. She's also super strong and ultra tough? OK, I don't see why since after all she's just a banshee possessing a corpse, but I guess you can handwave something about greater undead even if those we have seen being greatly buffed post-death previously were the products of rituals or specifically meant to be empowered (such as Lichs, Death Knights or Nathanos). Her scream being a powerful force is entirely reasonable, but how why can it break the Helm of Domination's hold in Dark mirror?

    Raising the dead? OK that was a Dark Ranger ability in WC3. But that doesn't explain how she can raise an entire army, a feat only matched on-screen by Arthas and Bwonsamdi. Agility is also one thing, but how dafuck can her banshee form fly without leaving her physical body behind? She a druid that can shapeshift into smoke or something?

    Then of course there's all the shit you mention. It's just too many powers and unexplained abilities for one character. At least Jaina (since she's the favored whataboutism thrown around) is specialized around magic, and ice magic in particular. Sylanas has an entire kitchen sink's worth of abilities far, far above what any Dark Ranger has ever displayed, and the only explanation we get is "Jailermachines, son". Even other OP characters like Illidan still displayed powers that were reasonably within the sphere of a Demon Hunter. Sylvanas is basically her own class that gets new abilities whenever the writers feel like it.

    Now, IMO the worst aspect of Sylvanas isn't her power creep (let's be honest, that's not new to Warcraft) and more what was done to her character. She used to be this cunning, underhanded schemer who at least had to try to outmaneuver her opponents. This informed her character as the ruthless underdog that she was in WC3 and early WoW. But now she was made totally overpowered and throws all subtlety out the window because, hey, why the fuck wouldn't she? She can do damn near anything now, who needs character development and understandable motivations when you're so cool and eeeeevil and the plot bends over backwards to make everything work for you so you can be a credible threat to all the things. She was turned into a bad anime villain, and that is more painful to see than any of her powerups.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    We do now know who the Jailor is yet though... it might be a character we have known for a long time.
    I think they said somewhere though that the Jailor isn't a character we've met before.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    When should you hear about something for the first time for it to be legit?
    There isn't a clear, hard rule. But ideally, the sooner, the better. Imo, introducing a new character in such an ad hoc fashion screams of bad writing.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I think they said somewhere though that the Jailor isn't a character we've met before.
    Concept art of who the jailor is got leaked a while ago. It's a completely new character by what we can tell. And yes, they also stated so (which doesn't mean much these days).
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  20. #260
    Anyone know if she is finally getting retconned?
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