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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Sounds like Luke with Boobs. Desert child who had no training yet was able to do enough force to get by. Then becomes very powerful with very little training (few days with Yoda. While Rey had weeks with Luke and more with other force trained people.)
    Luke had months with Yoda Rey had days with Luke lol to be specific about 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Burden of proof, lol. You tell me how she supposedly is? Because I know you have nothing. This is just another stupid "I don't like this character SO THEY MUST BE THE AUTHOR'S SELF-INSERT111111111111".

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    Anduin is Golden's Mary Sue. Not a self-insert of herself by any means, but just her blatantly favored character that she wants to be perfect with his only "flaws" being entirely fake ones.
    He is a self insert of a sort he's her idealized concept of a son.

  2. #262
    Sylvanas is just like Gerald from Witcher. Full blown, overrated Mary Sue with no depth.

    Sylvie is there for fan service. Blizzard knows desperate gamers are ready to pay anything to see some 2D elf titties.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    When should you hear about something for the first time for it to be legit? Impossible to write all lore ever needed for any world you create. You build as you go on. The thing that only matters is if it makes sense or not. Someone having dominion over dead souls in warcraft isn't farfetched and instead it is expected even if we haven't heard of such.

    You have to take the lore into context of established lore. It makes sense.
    You introduce it slowly, over time. If you want a jailor, you hint at it in MoP or WoD, let it be during Legion, and tease it a bit more during BfA. The way they've done it is barely a pretext (and a cheap one, at that) for Sylvie's OPness. Because it doesn't matter sense to pull things of thin air, other than through appeal to authority, aka "they are the authors and can do whatever the !@#$ they want" - which is their prerrogative after all, but hardly makes for good storytelling.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You introduce it slowly, over time. If you want a jailor, you hint at it in MoP or WoD, let it be during Legion, and tease it a bit more during BfA. The way they've done it is barely a pretext (and a cheap one, at that) for Sylvie's OPness. Because it doesn't matter sense to pull things of thin air, other than through appeal to authority, aka "they are the authors and can do whatever the !@#$ they want" - which is their prerrogative after all, but hardly makes for good storytelling.
    We do now know who the Jailor is yet though... it might be a character we have known for a long time. There are so many gods and powerful beings that it can be almost anything. I don't understand why it's an ass-pull if there is one more that haven't been relevant yet. Making a deal with a death god or being to become powerful isn't really odd... there have been deals for power for as long as warcraft were a thing.

    Also people speculated LONG before it was revealed that she most likely made a deal with some death entity... which wouldn't be possible if it was an "ass-pull".

    There is a difference in quality of writing and if a character is a Mary-Sue or not. It's a logical reason why she is powerful within the rules of the universe they've created. Does it lack build up? Sure... which is a different matter. To me it sounds very much that you don't like the writing, which is warranted, and thus it's mary-sue.

  5. #265
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    That is quite a strawman, and you know it well. The problem isn't about characters being related or not, it's about getting new powers as the plot demands without any explanation or introduction whatsoever. Hopefully, you realise that there can be a middle ground between "fully explained in every detail imaginable" and "complete asspull", which is what we are being presented with.

    Case in point, Sylvanas. Ok, we know she's an accomplished marksman, a formidable melee fighter, and has the ability to raise the dead. But all of a sudden, she kamehameha's Saurfang and uses a bunch of skills never seen before during the completely lopsided fight with the LK.

    Where did all that stuff come from? "Oh it's the Jailor, guys" i.e. an "explanation" that doesn't actually explain anything. It's almost the same !@#$ they pulled in Cata with Thrall.
    I'd argue even her powers before that came out of left field. OK, she's super agile and an accomplished marks(wo)man, that's perfectly fine, she was one in life after all. She's also super strong and ultra tough? OK, I don't see why since after all she's just a banshee possessing a corpse, but I guess you can handwave something about greater undead even if those we have seen being greatly buffed post-death previously were the products of rituals or specifically meant to be empowered (such as Lichs, Death Knights or Nathanos). Her scream being a powerful force is entirely reasonable, but how why can it break the Helm of Domination's hold in Dark mirror?

    Raising the dead? OK that was a Dark Ranger ability in WC3. But that doesn't explain how she can raise an entire army, a feat only matched on-screen by Arthas and Bwonsamdi. Agility is also one thing, but how dafuck can her banshee form fly without leaving her physical body behind? She a druid that can shapeshift into smoke or something?

    Then of course there's all the shit you mention. It's just too many powers and unexplained abilities for one character. At least Jaina (since she's the favored whataboutism thrown around) is specialized around magic, and ice magic in particular. Sylanas has an entire kitchen sink's worth of abilities far, far above what any Dark Ranger has ever displayed, and the only explanation we get is "Jailermachines, son". Even other OP characters like Illidan still displayed powers that were reasonably within the sphere of a Demon Hunter. Sylvanas is basically her own class that gets new abilities whenever the writers feel like it.

    Now, IMO the worst aspect of Sylvanas isn't her power creep (let's be honest, that's not new to Warcraft) and more what was done to her character. She used to be this cunning, underhanded schemer who at least had to try to outmaneuver her opponents. This informed her character as the ruthless underdog that she was in WC3 and early WoW. But now she was made totally overpowered and throws all subtlety out the window because, hey, why the fuck wouldn't she? She can do damn near anything now, who needs character development and understandable motivations when you're so cool and eeeeevil and the plot bends over backwards to make everything work for you so you can be a credible threat to all the things. She was turned into a bad anime villain, and that is more painful to see than any of her powerups.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Ever since some of you learned the term, EVERYBODY is now a mary sue!
    Sounds just the kind of thing a Mary Sue would say.

  8. #268
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    We do now know who the Jailor is yet though... it might be a character we have known for a long time.
    I think they said somewhere though that the Jailor isn't a character we've met before.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    When should you hear about something for the first time for it to be legit?
    There isn't a clear, hard rule. But ideally, the sooner, the better. Imo, introducing a new character in such an ad hoc fashion screams of bad writing.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    I think they said somewhere though that the Jailor isn't a character we've met before.
    Concept art of who the jailor is got leaked a while ago. It's a completely new character by what we can tell. And yes, they also stated so (which doesn't mean much these days).
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  11. #271
    Anyone know if she is finally getting retconned?
    The hunter hoe with the least beloe.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    The serious irony here is staggeringly funny.



    Actually, it does. The Power of the Lich King was in the Helm of Domination. Like, straight up. Thats literally how the Lich King was created.

    But hey, you rock on there.
    Um, no it wasn't. The helm affords the control over the Scourge, as well as the armor. Frostmourne is an even larger source of the Lich King's power that Bolvar does not possess. The helm is not the only thing that empowers the Lich King, it's merely a part of it. And no, the Helm of Domination is not "literally how the Lich King was created". Ner'zhul's soul was bound to the helm. It did not "create" anything.

    So, what's that irony you speak of? Please, remind me.

    Bolvar lacks 2/3s of what made Arthas superior. So it's to be expected he's 33% of the power of Arthas, assuming he had the same physical prowess.

    But hey, you rock on there, not knowing what you're talking about and all. Makes for a great laugh.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2020-01-07 at 04:01 PM.

  13. #273
    Brewmaster Oakshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    The *ORIGINAL* Mary Sue, was a parody of badly written (usually) female self-insert characters in Star Trek fanfiction. There is nothing in the concept itself that says a Mary Sue has to be male or female. In early Star Trek fanfiction, they were *usually* female, but that's just in Star Trek. The concept of a Mary Sue works just as well for male characters as female characters.
    This. Mary Sue is not a gender specific thing. It's simply called a "Mary Sue" because the first ever character that was one was, well... named Mary Sue. You people and your gender sensitivities need to get over this fact.

    And no, Jaina and Tyrande are not Mary Sues. They are far from it. Because they can and have failed. They aren't perfect. They have flaws. If they are Mary Sues, than so are Talanji and Thalyssra. A powerful female character is not a Mary Sue because they are powerful. And poor writing doesn't make them a Mary Sue. It just makes them poorly written.

    Do you know why they had Jaina come flying in on that giant clipper with Arcane cannons in the launch of BfA? Not because she's a Mary Sue, but because they just thought it would be fucking cool, and hoped fans would think so also. But... no. People have to bitch and moan about how OP it was. It was just meant to feel like a triumphant moment for the Alliance and the return of Jaina Proudmoore as a positive character. Some of you just have to shit all over everything, no matter how fun it was supposed to be.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkarra View Post
    She dominated Saurfang and Bolvar in each fight. She one shot Saurfang with her shadow magic and she utterly dominated Bolvar. The guy couldn't do anything against her.

    Now some people will claim that she is not a Mary Sue, because her new powers are explained to originate from the Jailer, since when he grows in power, so does Sylvanas.

    But that only proves that she is a Mary Sue. Mary Sue's always have justifications for their powers. It's just something the writers pull out of their ass.
    Nah, i think it would be better to say: She has been made into one.
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  15. #275
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salate View Post
    overpowered character because “reasons”. Mary sue actually is a common thing for alotta chars. Remember Rey from Star Wars?
    Whoa whoa it isn't just overpowered, it's overpowered without any discernable weaknesses or flaws. Sylvanas is still a Mary Sue by the whole definition.

    Thrall is another example, although they fixed him by giving him an incredible lack of good judgment ability with things like choosing garrosh for WC just because he was his idol's kid, or giving up on the elements when they were mad at him during a legion apocalypse instead of working hard to become useful again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Nah, i think it would be better to say: She has been made into one.
    Her being Mary Sue happens just as Thrall has finally stopped being one.. there must always be ... A Mary Sue... dissipates ominously

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    Her being Mary Sue happens just as Thrall has finally stopped being one.. there must always be ... A Mary Sue... dissipates ominously
    Good sir, this definitely needs to be made into a signature /bravo

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=32599/securing-a-future

    What was that? An actual in game quest that explains things and defies your "Jaina is a Mary Sue" narrative? Especially since her feats are nothing compared to the bullshit Sylvanas pulled off.
    Holy hell, how are people still trying to use this as explanation for Jaina's powers when, by Jaina's own wording in that quest showed that she was acting on rumors. And the thing is, those rumors were false. Lei Shen's source of power wasn't in the palace. It was the other way around, Lei Shen was the palace's source of power. The one to actually have gotten his power was Wrathion.

    Which we already have known since 5.2 from things like Lei Shen powering things up in his throne room during the fight, some dev commentary on his palace, Wrathion receiving a Titan transmission after eating his heart and, if memory serves me right, something with the thunder strikes on the isle subsiding after you completed the questline.

    And then Chronicle v1 arrived and couldn't have confirmed that more than it did. By revealing that Lei Shen's source of power was what he stole from Ra. All Jaina drained into her staff in that quest is the power of wishful thinking and dreams. She could have drained Pandaren farts into it and it wouldn't have made a difference.

    So, what was that, you asked? That was you thinking you had a clever gotcha while all you had was your misunderstanding of the topic. It most certainly was not "an actual in game quest that explains things and defies @Verdugo's "Jaina is a Mary Sue" narrative".


    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    That is quite a strawman, and you know it well. The problem isn't about characters being related or not, it's about getting new powers as the plot demands without any explanation or introduction whatsoever. Hopefully, you realise that there can be a middle ground between "fully explained in every detail imaginable" and "complete asspull", which is what we are being presented with.

    Case in point, Sylvanas. Ok, we know she's an accomplished marksman, a formidable melee fighter, and has the ability to raise the dead. But all of a sudden, she kamehameha's Saurfang and uses a bunch of skills never seen before during the completely lopsided fight with the LK.

    Where did all that stuff come from? "Oh it's the Jailor, guys" i.e. an "explanation" that doesn't actually explain anything. It's almost the same !@#$ they pulled in Cata with Thrall.
    This is inconsistent. How can you talk about a middle ground between "fully explained in every detail imaginable" and "complete asspull" when your complaint is that Sylvanas is getting new powers as the plot demands without any explanation, which clearly falls under a complete asspull.

    On top of that, judging by your example below, this complaint is false. The plot didn't demand for Sylvanas to kamehameha Saurfang. By her already established powers there was half a dozen ways at least for her to kill him, including simply shredding him to bits with her bare hands. Hell, the very cinematic in which the kamehameha occurred in clearly painted the picture that Saurfang was a sniveling worm compared to her. The kamehameha was simply a misguided attempt at a crowning moment of awesome since Blizzard can't write a story without shoving a rule of KEWL moment every five seconds.

    Besides, Sylvanas has been using some kind of shadowy death magic for quite some time (even discounting the necromancy). Her arrows didn't glow purple and explode by accident. Also, from how Blizzard painted it, she's not getting those powers directly from the jailer but from the Maw and the clusterfuck of souls that occurred there. Jailer may have been the one who linked her to it, but souls being a power source has been an element of WoW's lore for ages, applying to various fields of magic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You introduce it slowly, over time. If you want a jailor, you hint at it in MoP or WoD, let it be during Legion, and tease it a bit more during BfA. The way they've done it is barely a pretext (and a cheap one, at that) for Sylvie's OPness. Because it doesn't matter sense to pull things of thin air, other than through appeal to authority, aka "they are the authors and can do whatever the !@#$ they want" - which is their prerrogative after all, but hardly makes for good storytelling.
    The existence of strong death entities has been hinted at since the very same Legion you mentioned. And we've even seen Sylvanas engage with one in that same expansion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'd argue even her powers before that came out of left field. OK, she's super agile and an accomplished marks(wo)man, that's perfectly fine, she was one in life after all. She's also super strong and ultra tough? OK, I don't see why since after all she's just a banshee possessing a corpse, but I guess you can handwave something about greater undead even if those we have seen being greatly buffed post-death previously were the products of rituals or specifically meant to be empowered (such as Lichs, Death Knights or Nathanos). Her scream being a powerful force is entirely reasonable, but how why can it break the Helm of Domination's hold in Dark mirror?
    Undead are abnormally strong in WoW in general. Besides, Sylvanas being stronger than Arthas anticipated has been established all the way back in Rise of the Lich King. Perhaps being resurrected by him personally had some significance. And she had unusual properties when it came to the whole Banshee bit for even longer, vide her ability to phase. Her ability to fly like she does could be tied to that. And the Lich King's grasp over the undead in Lordaeron was pretty much shit at that point. Sylvanas was giving people the push they needed. Had Illidan not fucked with the Frozen Throne I doubt she'd have an effect (putting the fact she wouldn't have been free herself aside).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Raising the dead? OK that was a Dark Ranger ability in WC3. But that doesn't explain how she can raise an entire army, a feat only matched on-screen by Arthas and Bwonsamdi. Agility is also one thing, but how dafuck can her banshee form fly without leaving her physical body behind? She a druid that can shapeshift into smoke or something?
    Her pact with the Val'kyr explains how she can raise an army. Literally, Blizzard devs outright talked about how Sylvanas personally got stronger over time because of that pact. And Val'kyr have been necromantic power houses since their very introduction to WoW in WotLK. Besides, those were still shitty mindless undead. And there had been other cases of mass resurrection, like Scourgelord Tyrannus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Then of course there's all the shit you mention. It's just too many powers and unexplained abilities for one character. At least Jaina (since she's the favored whataboutism thrown around) is specialized around magic, and ice magic in particular. Sylanas has an entire kitchen sink's worth of abilities far, far above what any Dark Ranger has ever displayed, and the only explanation we get is "Jailermachines, son". Even other OP characters like Illidan still displayed powers that were reasonably within the sphere of a Demon Hunter. Sylvanas is basically her own class that gets new abilities whenever the writers feel like it.
    The issue with Jaina isn't that she does magic. It's how strong that magic is. Because when Jaina achieves fuck all when casting a spell on some random Blood Elven Archmage with hostile intent and achieves fuck all despite pouring all of her might into that spell - as described by an omniscient narrator - as recently as the interludium between Cata and MoP and then in BfA becomes a Mage god, then something's not right.

    And what's so out-of-sphere about Sylvanas? She screams, she shoots various types of rule of kewl arrows, she resurrects people, she casts some death magic. All of which are pretty much the core concept of a Dark Ranger. Sylvanas differs from rest in scope. And even if the only explanation for that was "Jailermachines, son", that would still be above and beyond what explanation has been given for Jaina. So I'm not really sure what you tried to achieve by contrasting the two there. Especially since the explanation is "Sylvanas has fed countless souls to her new power battery and souls have been magic fuel in death-related magic in this setting for eons" (on top of her being stronger than the rest from the get go).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Now, IMO the worst aspect of Sylvanas isn't her power creep (let's be honest, that's not new to Warcraft) and more what was done to her character. She used to be this cunning, underhanded schemer who at least had to try to outmaneuver her opponents. This informed her character as the ruthless underdog that she was in WC3 and early WoW. But now she was made totally overpowered and throws all subtlety out the window because, hey, why the fuck wouldn't she? She can do damn near anything now, who needs character development and understandable motivations when you're so cool and eeeeevil and the plot bends over backwards to make everything work for you so you can be a credible threat to all the things. She was turned into a bad anime villain, and that is more painful to see than any of her powerups.
    Except Sylvanas barely did anything in this expansion. She just stood by as the plot moved around her. While gargling on the idiot ball. Because Sylvanas isn't really a character in the current plot, she's a plot device. And the plot bent over backwards against her even more often than in her favor. Alliance should have been exterminated five times at Lordaeron alone, yet it ultimately won... something (hard to call their victory winning the war) because golden boy is just too darn amazing to fail. And the traitor squad is even worse than Alliance when it comes to consequences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Camelboy View Post
    Sylvanas is just like Gerald from Witcher. Full blown, overrated Mary Sue with no depth.
    I'm not sure how hard must one squint their eyes to say that "Gerald from Witcher" has no depth.
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  18. #278
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    For me, I don't see her as a bad guy. I see her as a good guy who lost their direction. She doesn't kill because it makes her feel good, nor does she have some untold endless thirst for power. She literally wants to save azeroth and the future generations at any cost, even if that includes genocide and starting wars. That's why I'm so excited for the shadowlands story, it'll finally explain her motives in detail as to why she felt burning teldrassil was so necessary.

    You act like she got powerful out of nowhere. Not only is she a renowned archer, but she has extensive experience in combat/war. Combine that w/ the fact that she's a banshee, I'm not entirely surprised she has become this powerful. Hell we know she struck a deal with the jailer to make her more powerful based on how many souls she sent to the Maw.

    If you have an issue with with the story, then let it involve the story. Don't try to infuse your bias and claim it's gospel. Her power didn't come from anywhere, it came from the jailer who is stuck within the Maw. If that seems like something whipped out of the air, then accept it as that and move on. I and others think it's good story telling and am eager to see where the story goes next.
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  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post

    Her being Mary Sue happens just as Thrall has finally stopped being one.. there must always be ... A Mary Sue... dissipates ominously
    And there always need to be 2. A student and a master
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