Sylvanas is a Mary Sue

[Eggroll]

Question: is there a term for anti mary sue character?

I mean like Tyrande who obviously HAS thousands of years of life, combat and leadership experience, yet is - for some reason - losing to anyone and apparently always makes the dumbest decisions?

Mary Sue-> gains strenght out of her ass, never fails
Anti Mary sue -> actually has all the strength, knowledge and experience -> always fails

[Stormspark]

Question: is there a term for anti mary sue character?

I mean like Tyrande who obviously HAS thousands of years of life, combat and leadership experience, yet is - for some reason - losing to anyone and apparently always makes the dumbest decisions?

Mary Sue-> gains strenght out of her ass, never fails
Anti Mary sue -> actually has all the strength, knowledge and experience -> always fails

This is the closest I can find. Maybe? It's not quite what you're looking for.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue

[Eggroll]

Well, Nathanos became a Mary Sue character, too, though. A simple ranger beating Tyrande and Malf, I don't think so.

[Shakana]

Question: is there a term for anti mary sue character?

I mean like Tyrande who obviously HAS thousands of years of life, combat and leadership experience, yet is - for some reason - losing to anyone and apparently always makes the dumbest decisions?

Mary Sue-> gains strenght out of her ass, never fails
Anti Mary sue -> actually has all the strength, knowledge and experience -> always fails

Yes, it's called AntiSue.

[Stormspark]

Well, Nathanos became a Mary Sue character, too, though. A simple ranger beating Tyrande and Malf, I don't think so.

Basically, the dude that's in charge of writing Sylvanas now, retconned and CHANGED Nathanos to be his self insert (and he's not shy about admitting it), and then shipped him with Sylvanas. It's really freaking creepy. He even redesigned Nathanos to look like him. Only less fat. I heard about that, it was like, damn dude, if you want to ship yourself with Sylvanas, go write some fanfics or something.

[Eggroll]

This is the closest I can find. Maybe? It's not quite what you're looking for.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue

Hey theres actually a nice explanation of the Mary Sue character, and it fits quite well with the Sylvanas storyline I think.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...etifulAllAlong

Mary Sue is not always about how she has radiant purple hair, a perfect seven octave singing voice, and can slice Superman with her katanas with one arm tied around her back. It's about what she does to the story. There's a fine line between a well-developed character and Mary Sue, and it's certainly not defined by her appearance, justification (or lack thereof) for her abilities, or how fantastically improbable her backstory is. It's about how the character is defined exclusively by external traits and her actions to the point of shallowness, and about how all other characters are defined by their attitude to her (or him; this trope applies to both sexes). It's about how, in Fan Fiction, she completely overtakes the canon characters in importance. It's about how people act wildly out of character around her and elevate her to a status well above what she should realistically be able to obtain.

[Mamercus]

That... that's the definition of a Mary Sue, though...

That's the kind of over broad definition that causes these never ending internet debates. In the original intent of the term it's an idealized, super-popular, super-capable character that is an idealized version of the author that is beloved by everyone, morally flawless, and incapable of failure.

That's obviously not what BFA sylv is because a( she's the villain b( she's despised even by her own faction c( her military campaign is ultimately ineffective but partly that's because the writers never developed a coherent fiction about what the A + H were really fighting over in the first place. Sylv is not obviously a self-insert, although her boyfriend is.

Look I don't think people expect literary excellence from Warcraft. What the franchise used to deliver on was compelling, fun, exciting, and funny schlock. For the most part it was able to deliver on that in Legion. BFA the stakes were just kind of nonsensical. The set pieces were generally fine but the overarching plot just doesn't really make any sense. There were also too many plots going on at once. They should have picked one thing instead of trying to combine the "Azeroth has AIDS and hemophilia" and other stuff about alliance vs. horde and Kul Tiras and Zandalar AND the old gods doing stuff. There is just too much stuff going on in a half baked and distracting way.

[Eggroll]

Basically, the dude that's in charge of writing Sylvanas now, retconned and CHANGED Nathanos to be his self insert (and he's not shy about admitting it), and then shipped him with Sylvanas. It's really freaking creepy. He even redesigned Nathanos to look like him. Only less fat. I heard about that, it was like, damn dude, if you want to ship yourself with Sylvanas, go write some fanfics or something.

Haha, IKR, it's fucking creeepy. And it ruins the entire WoW story. Imagine that, a middle aged fat white dude getting off on a video game character. I mean, there's this hub-site *cough* where you can find explicit machinimas, even with Sylvanas in it. He can blow some steam off there, haha.

[Shakana]

It's about how, in Fan Fiction, she completely overtakes the canon characters in importance.
It's about how people act wildly out of character around her and elevate her to a status well above what she should realistically be able to obtain.

So basically, that's like saying "OMG YOU'RE A GIRL, take my money!"

And with this i keep remembering the Captain Grim's parody video about the shadowlands trailer.
"My fanboys fuel my power"

Literally... She indeed takes protagonism of even lich king, where it could shine.

People sees Icecrown: WOAHHH YEAAA!
People sees Sylvanas taking over: Well...Shiet.
People sees Sylvanas almost putting the helm: I'm tired of you please no, don't do it.
People that loves Sylvanas (and you can even see on the reactions at blizzcon): YAS QUEEN!

I would not call it mary sue, but rather fanservice with bad writing. I can still call it Mary Sue indeed but i just didn't even know that term 'til today. lol

[Mirishka]

You must really enjoy listening to yourself talk for the absolute sake of it... Believe whatever you want.

I state absolute fact (as in 'you can google it' fact) about the reactions to several powerful female characters and the best you can offer in reply is 'herp derp believe wut u want'.

That's right up there with 'whatever' in terms of being "you're right, I don't have a valid counterargument, so here have some snark."

But hey, thanks for the useless reply I guess?

[Nefarious Tea]

To be fair, Sylvanas wasn't *always* a Mary Sue. But she was definitely a Mary Sue in BFA. And she looks to be even more of a Mary Sue in Shadowlands. There are also a lot of types of Mary Sue. As pointed out by someone above me, Sylvanas currently fits the Villian Sue archetype pretty well.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue

In reading that, Gul'dan was also a HUGE villain sue. Good lord. So glad we iced that motherfucker in Nighthold finally.

On topic, however: Sylvanas used to be a pretty compelling character, to be honest. It's sad that she's getting shit on so hard by the writers these days.

[Shakana]

In reading that, Gul'dan was also a HUGE villain sue. Good lord. So glad we iced that motherfucker in Nighthold finally.

On topic, however: Sylvanas used to be a pretty compelling character, to be honest. It's sad that she's getting shit on so hard by the writers these days.

She used to yes, i used to love her character. She had her reasons to do stuff, now it's more like "i do this cause im feeding hungering darkness, i have a huge plan that only concerns me and you all are nothing but devoured souls in my plan". But you know she will still "set us all free" lmao

[THEORACLE64]

Um WTF is a Mary Sue?

A word that males use when they feel demasculised by a lead female character.

[Daedius]

I state absolute fact (as in 'you can google it' fact) about the reactions to several powerful female characters and the best you can offer in reply is 'herp derp believe wut u want'.

That's right up there with 'whatever' in terms of being "you're right, I don't have a valid counterargument, so here have some snark."

But hey, thanks for the useless reply I guess?

Could say the same about your "misogynistic" tripe with regards to the topic on hand, when a "Mary Sue" can equally apply to a male character for the same reasons of being a flawless [boring] character with zero consequences.

But whatever.

[Stormspark]

A word that males use when they feel demasculised by a lead female character.

Yeah, no. Did you not see where Sylvanas did not start out as a Mary Sue, and only became one when she became the waifu of one of the writers (who changed an existing character to be his self insert, and then shipped him with Sylvanas, in canon - you should read more about that, it's really fucking creepy)? This dude started "writing" during the middle of Legion, which is just when Sylvanas started getting shafted by the writers, and turned into a Mary Sue.

There is nothing wrong with lead female characters. There IS something wrong when characters are poorly written and turned into Mary Sue's, whether they are male or female. Mary Sue's can be male too. The Mary Sue name comes from a fanfic that was a PARODY of self insert fanfiction for Star Trek...in said parody the protagonist happened to be named Mary Sue (the original Mary Sue's from Star Trek fanfiction tended to be female, that's not so much the case anymore), so the name stuck. It's a trope, nowhere does it specify that the character has to be female.

[StillMcfuu]

Was that before or after she powerslided in front of Frostmourne and effectively suicided herself?

That's not lore, just a video.

[matrix123mko]

No, Sylvanas is more akin to a Villain Sue who gains new powers as the plot demands and is never allowed to actually suffer from any setback because the writers keep conjuring new goals and plans for her out of thin air so she doesn't lose.

So she is Kael'thas on major steroids. She suffers from minor setbacks and changes her goals to succeed elsewhere.

[KaPe]

So she is Kael'thas on major steroids. She suffers from minor setbacks and changes her goals to succeed elsewhere.

Kael'thas failed pretty much every single time after his campaign back in Warcraft 3. He was defeated by Arthas at the Icecrown. He nearly died in Tempest Keep. He was barely kept alive by the fel and died for good shortly afterwards. At no point did he pull some grand scheme or incredible powerup seemingly out of nowhere.

If he was like Sylvanas, his "death" (he'd survive, of course) would have actually released Kil'jaeden into the world and was only a stepping stone to something even more important. He'd be using Legion's second in command as a tool for his own goals.

[Biske]

Characters with flaws are boring. That just makes them average.

??? Even Superman has flaws and he's anything but average. Boring is a character that never fails and gets everything right because there's no tension or conflict anywhere. You know a character without any flaws is going to succeed at everything he sets out to do, which in turn, also relegates any other characters to either background noise or professional dick riders for the main character.

[Yarathir]

Is this supposed to be news?

There's always some contrived reason for her to come out on top, escape unscathed, win the battle, outplay another strategist. I mean, you're not wrong, but it's not some kind of novel message. Most people are already aware of that.

- - - Updated - - -

Doubles as a photograph that depicts how many lucid people truly believe the identity politics nonsense you spout in defense of bland, boring characters.

- - - Updated - - -

Could say the same about your "misogynistic" tripe with regards to the topic on hand, when a "Mary Sue" can equally apply to a male character for the same reasons of being a flawless [boring] character with zero consequences.

But whatever.

There's enough people who hate Nathanos too, especially after he flew off scoffing at Tyrande and got out pretty much scot-free after being confronted by both her and Malfurion.

But I'm sure that's just people hating him because they hate Sylvanas and therefore still misogyny. :^)