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  1. #121
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Which is not how The Force works, as we've been told for the last 30 years.

    There were plenty of Jedi that came from nothing.

    And, on top of that, they still had to train. Rey did not.

    She's a near-dictionary perfect definition of a Mary Sue.

    Sylvanas is not, however, because of one thing:

    Mary Sue's are protagonists.

    Sylvanas is an antagonist.
    The force isn't real. It works however the story/script needs it to work, and there are plenty of games and EU stories with characters who are wildly powerful Jedi/Sith etc without all the 'back in my day, a Jedi had to TRAIN to be something!' whippersnappering.

    And within the SW canon Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith to have ever lived, and yet people are STILL whining about Rey's power despite her being a direct descendant of him.

    I guarantee you, 100% guaran-fucking-tee you, that we would not have seen anywhere near the same level of complaining about Rey had she been a man. Especially one it was revealed that he was a descendant of Sheev Palpatine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    lol this again.

    If Rey was a Mary Sue, so was every force user.
    Careful now, logic and common sense aren't welcome round' these parts.

  2. #122
    Sylvanas isn’t horde anymore last I checked.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    That's cute, but Mary Sue is 100% a bullshit derogatory term for female characters used by men (using that term loosely) who are angry because said female character is powerful or successful/etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Y'all can pretend this isn't a thing all you want, but it is very much a thing.

    "omg Rey is a Mary Sue how is she so powerful REEEEEEEEEE"
    "Captain Marvel is such a Mary Sue p.s. omg smile more REEEEEEEE"
    "Sylvanas is a Mary Sue who cares if she is actually deeply flawed and we understand where her new power comes from REEEEEEE"

    I could go on and on, but it is genuinely hilarious to me how mad some guys get at the idea of a fictional female character that is powerful or accomplishes something. Because pretend characters with pretend abilities in a pretend storyline are so important, right? Its totally worth stroking out over Captain Marvel, or Rey's use of the force, or Jaina/Sylvanas/whatever.

    And literally nothing about Sylvanas is 'flawless' - she's probably the most deeply flawed, hateful character in the lore at this point. But sure, lets call her a Mary Sue because reasons™.



    Oh hey, I found a photo of people who care what you think.

    You must really enjoy listening to yourself talk for the absolute sake of it... Believe whatever you want.

  4. #124
    @Mirishka

    This is not perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
    The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

  5. #125
    Question: is there a term for anti mary sue character?

    I mean like Tyrande who obviously HAS thousands of years of life, combat and leadership experience, yet is - for some reason - losing to anyone and apparently always makes the dumbest decisions?

    Mary Sue-> gains strenght out of her ass, never fails
    Anti Mary sue -> actually has all the strength, knowledge and experience -> always fails

  6. #126
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Question: is there a term for anti mary sue character?

    I mean like Tyrande who obviously HAS thousands of years of life, combat and leadership experience, yet is - for some reason - losing to anyone and apparently always makes the dumbest decisions?

    Mary Sue-> gains strenght out of her ass, never fails
    Anti Mary sue -> actually has all the strength, knowledge and experience -> always fails
    This is the closest I can find. Maybe? It's not quite what you're looking for.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue

  7. #127
    Well, Nathanos became a Mary Sue character, too, though. A simple ranger beating Tyrande and Malf, I don't think so.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Question: is there a term for anti mary sue character?

    I mean like Tyrande who obviously HAS thousands of years of life, combat and leadership experience, yet is - for some reason - losing to anyone and apparently always makes the dumbest decisions?

    Mary Sue-> gains strenght out of her ass, never fails
    Anti Mary sue -> actually has all the strength, knowledge and experience -> always fails
    Yes, it's called AntiSue.

  9. #129
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Well, Nathanos became a Mary Sue character, too, though. A simple ranger beating Tyrande and Malf, I don't think so.
    Basically, the dude that's in charge of writing Sylvanas now, retconned and CHANGED Nathanos to be his self insert (and he's not shy about admitting it), and then shipped him with Sylvanas. It's really freaking creepy. He even redesigned Nathanos to look like him. Only less fat. I heard about that, it was like, damn dude, if you want to ship yourself with Sylvanas, go write some fanfics or something.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    This is the closest I can find. Maybe? It's not quite what you're looking for.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue
    Hey theres actually a nice explanation of the Mary Sue character, and it fits quite well with the Sylvanas storyline I think.
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...etifulAllAlong

    Mary Sue is not always about how she has radiant purple hair, a perfect seven octave singing voice, and can slice Superman with her katanas with one arm tied around her back. It's about what she does to the story. There's a fine line between a well-developed character and Mary Sue, and it's certainly not defined by her appearance, justification (or lack thereof) for her abilities, or how fantastically improbable her backstory is. It's about how the character is defined exclusively by external traits and her actions to the point of shallowness, and about how all other characters are defined by their attitude to her (or him; this trope applies to both sexes). It's about how, in Fan Fiction, she completely overtakes the canon characters in importance. It's about how people act wildly out of character around her and elevate her to a status well above what she should realistically be able to obtain.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Alteiry View Post
    That... that's the definition of a Mary Sue, though...
    That's the kind of over broad definition that causes these never ending internet debates. In the original intent of the term it's an idealized, super-popular, super-capable character that is an idealized version of the author that is beloved by everyone, morally flawless, and incapable of failure.

    That's obviously not what BFA sylv is because a( she's the villain b( she's despised even by her own faction c( her military campaign is ultimately ineffective but partly that's because the writers never developed a coherent fiction about what the A + H were really fighting over in the first place. Sylv is not obviously a self-insert, although her boyfriend is.

    Look I don't think people expect literary excellence from Warcraft. What the franchise used to deliver on was compelling, fun, exciting, and funny schlock. For the most part it was able to deliver on that in Legion. BFA the stakes were just kind of nonsensical. The set pieces were generally fine but the overarching plot just doesn't really make any sense. There were also too many plots going on at once. They should have picked one thing instead of trying to combine the "Azeroth has AIDS and hemophilia" and other stuff about alliance vs. horde and Kul Tiras and Zandalar AND the old gods doing stuff. There is just too much stuff going on in a half baked and distracting way.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Hey theres actually a nice explanation of the Mary Sue character, and it fits quite well with the Sylvanas storyline I think.
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...etifulAllAlong
    God, that last line hits like a sack of bricks.

    I'd pull up post history saying how bad characters have been acting all expansion long when it comes to Sylvanas, but I'm afraid I'd be here all night dragging up posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    Basically, the dude that's in charge of writing Sylvanas now, retconned and CHANGED Nathanos to be his self insert (and he's not shy about admitting it), and then shipped him with Sylvanas. It's really freaking creepy. He even redesigned Nathanos to look like him. Only less fat. I heard about that, it was like, damn dude, if you want to ship yourself with Sylvanas, go write some fanfics or something.
    Haha, IKR, it's fucking creeepy. And it ruins the entire WoW story. Imagine that, a middle aged fat white dude getting off on a video game character. I mean, there's this hub-site *cough* where you can find explicit machinimas, even with Sylvanas in it. He can blow some steam off there, haha.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamercus View Post
    That's the kind of over broad definition that causes these never ending internet debates. In the original intent of the term it's an idealized, super-popular, super-capable character that is an idealized version of the author that is beloved by everyone, morally flawless, and incapable of failure.
    Actually, I'd argue that it's this level of head-stuck-in-the-mud that keeps us stuck in these debates.

    Language evolves over time. It's going to keep evolving forever until we're all dead in the ground. What the initial meaning was, doesn't matter - Meanings to things evolve with time.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    It's about how, in Fan Fiction, she completely overtakes the canon characters in importance.
    It's about how people act wildly out of character around her and elevate her to a status well above what she should realistically be able to obtain.
    So basically, that's like saying "OMG YOU'RE A GIRL, take my money!"

    And with this i keep remembering the Captain Grim's parody video about the shadowlands trailer.
    "My fanboys fuel my power"

    Literally... She indeed takes protagonism of even lich king, where it could shine.

    People sees Icecrown: WOAHHH YEAAA!
    People sees Sylvanas taking over: Well...Shiet.
    People sees Sylvanas almost putting the helm: I'm tired of you please no, don't do it.
    People that loves Sylvanas (and you can even see on the reactions at blizzcon): YAS QUEEN!

    I would not call it mary sue, but rather fanservice with bad writing. I can still call it Mary Sue indeed but i just didn't even know that term 'til today. lol


    Last edited by Shakana; 2020-01-01 at 01:20 AM.

  16. #136
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    You must really enjoy listening to yourself talk for the absolute sake of it... Believe whatever you want.
    I state absolute fact (as in 'you can google it' fact) about the reactions to several powerful female characters and the best you can offer in reply is 'herp derp believe wut u want'.

    That's right up there with 'whatever' in terms of being "you're right, I don't have a valid counterargument, so here have some snark."

    But hey, thanks for the useless reply I guess?

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    To be fair, Sylvanas wasn't *always* a Mary Sue. But she was definitely a Mary Sue in BFA. And she looks to be even more of a Mary Sue in Shadowlands. There are also a lot of types of Mary Sue. As pointed out by someone above me, Sylvanas currently fits the Villian Sue archetype pretty well.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue
    In reading that, Gul'dan was also a HUGE villain sue. Good lord. So glad we iced that motherfucker in Nighthold finally.

    On topic, however: Sylvanas used to be a pretty compelling character, to be honest. It's sad that she's getting shit on so hard by the writers these days.
    Do not ask questions for which you do not want the answers.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    In reading that, Gul'dan was also a HUGE villain sue. Good lord. So glad we iced that motherfucker in Nighthold finally.

    On topic, however: Sylvanas used to be a pretty compelling character, to be honest. It's sad that she's getting shit on so hard by the writers these days.
    She used to yes, i used to love her character. She had her reasons to do stuff, now it's more like "i do this cause im feeding hungering darkness, i have a huge plan that only concerns me and you all are nothing but devoured souls in my plan". But you know she will still "set us all free" lmao

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    Um WTF is a Mary Sue?
    A word that males use when they feel demasculised by a lead female character.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I state absolute fact (as in 'you can google it' fact) about the reactions to several powerful female characters and the best you can offer in reply is 'herp derp believe wut u want'.

    That's right up there with 'whatever' in terms of being "you're right, I don't have a valid counterargument, so here have some snark."

    But hey, thanks for the useless reply I guess?
    Could say the same about your "misogynistic" tripe with regards to the topic on hand, when a "Mary Sue" can equally apply to a male character for the same reasons of being a flawless [boring] character with zero consequences.

    But whatever.
    Last edited by Daedius; 2020-01-01 at 02:03 AM.

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