Sylvanas is a Mary Sue

[Kiwijello]

I never even heard the term "Mary Sue" until Rey in Star Wars. Seems like it's another terminology bandwagon to jump on.

[Yarathir]

I never even heard the term "Mary Sue" until Rey in Star Wars. Seems like it's another terminology bandwagon to jump on.

It's existed for ages.

I think this has more to do with you than anything else.

[Arrashi]

Sylvanas isn't really a mary sue. She is example of why you should never write "smart" characters when you are clearly not capable of making them look like that in organic way. Majority of problems with her come from the whole "4D chess" thing.

[Quaade]

That's not lore, just a video.

So what you're saying is that Sylvanas' personal thoughts are different from the thoughts you want her to have?

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She just manhandled the Lich King in that cinematic. She's stupid because the writing is stupid. She's able to dominate powerful lore figures because she is a Mary Sue.

She's able to do that because the writers want her to be able to do that regardless of how much it cheapens the character as they've drunk their own cool-aid and truly believes in how awesome she is despite their own writing showing the opposite.

Teldrassil was done in the dumbest way possible. When you reported to her in the loyalist choice she told you she had everything under control. Then in the cinematic "everything under control" was her throwing a fit because she got a scratch.

[Darththeo]

Sounds like Luke with Boobs. Desert child who had no training yet was able to do enough force to get by. Then becomes very powerful with very little training (few days with Yoda. While Rey had weeks with Luke and more with other force trained people.)

This is my exact opinion on Rey too. Rey is literally just a Star Wars Protagonist with Boobs ... which is my biggest gripe with her character ... we have seen it before.

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On topic, people often through out the term Mary Sue without any actual understanding of what the term means. They heard it and think it is just the same term for "sloppy writing" it isn't. 9 times out of 10 when I hear a character called a Mary Sue, it is wrong. Superman is closer to a Mary Sue than Sylvanas is. One Punch Man is closer to a Mary Sue than Sylvanas is. And yet, these two characters are listed by a group of people as their favorite character.

[StillMcfuu]

So what you're saying is that Sylvanas' personal thoughts are different from the thoughts you want her to have?

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She's able to do that because the writers want her to be able to do that regardless of how much it cheapens the character as they've drunk their own cool-aid and truly believes in how awesome she is despite their own writing showing the opposite.

Teldrassil was done in the dumbest way possible. When you reported to her in the loyalist choice she told you she had everything under control. Then in the cinematic "everything under control" was her throwing a fit because she got a scratch.

You can play through her death in a game. The video was just artistic license. She attacked Arthas directly when she was completely out of options and backed against a wall. She didn't guitar slide up to him accidentally.

[Ielenia]

But Sylvanas has suffered many loses all the way up into Legion even, till she was empowered...even old man Greymane bested her and that is why she went into hiding pretty much till she found another way to get empowered. I think it's a little silly she bested Bolvar so easily...but there is no way she would have handled things so easily if she wasn't empowered by a outside source.

The conflict with Greymane in Legion was a setback that affected her negatively in no way, shape or form. She lost nothing. She suffered no consequences from that. And her going into hiding after that doesn't really mean anything.

OT:
Sylvanas isn't Mary Sue, of course some of her abilities and new friends are ass-pulls, but she isn't one.

She has plenty of flaws, she lost almost every battle she fought or was using Horde to do so(every warfront, battle for the undercity, her pursue to capture the val'kyr, her vendetta against Arthas, defending of the Silvermoon etc.).

But here's the problem: Shadowlands pushed Sylvanas further into 'Mary Sue' territory when we find out that that she was intentionally causing as many casualties as possible to 'feed' the broken death machine in the Shadowlands.

So yeah. Even when she lost, she still won.

[Stabbyfists]

Im not a sylvanas fan girl, infact, I hate the character

but she is not a Mary Sue

Mary Sues need to fit the following Criteria in order be counted as Mary Sues

1. They need to be able to do anything without failing. The only time they fail is to fail at solving one problem and immediately find a better solution. If she were ever to fail, the entire cast and crew could not find another solution and thus the whole world / crew is doomed.

2. They need to be loved by everyone. The only people who hate a Mary Sue are the most evil of beings. All the guys want to get with her, and even the Villain is in love with her and wants to be with her.

3. The Universe will actively break its own laws around the Mary Sue. It will bend to suit the Mary Sue's needs and desires in order to help them succeed.

4. They are the smartest, They are the most skilled, they are the best at everything they do.

5. If a Mary Sue dies, the whole universe, even the opposing faction, will mourn her death.

Of all 5 points, Sylvanas only fits ONE of those and that is the Universe bending its own rules to fit her needs but then again blizzard is inserting lore to have it make sense.

However Characters like Superman fit all but 1 of those Criteria therefore he himself is not a Mary Sue. However, there is one character in recent years that fits all 5 yet everyone will defend to the death that she is not a Mary Sue.

Rey from Star Wars.

1. She Pilots the Falcon without failing despite never flying before. She mind tricks a Stormtrooper despite never using the force before. She breaks Kylo Ren's Mind invasion despite never using the force. She overpowers Kylo Ren's force pull and then defeats him without any lightsaber training. She gets captured in The Last Jedi only to have the main villain be bisected for her. Had she failed to do any of her tasks, the First Order or The emperor would have taken over the Galaxy - Aka Never Failing.

2. She is loved by everyone. Even Kylo Ren loves her. Snoke wants to make her his new apprentice. Even the final movie villain wants to BECOME her. She is beloved by the entire universe. - Aka Loved by everyone

3. The universe CONSTANTLY breaks its own laws around Rey. In Star Wars Canon, even trained Jedi fell to the power of a fully trained Sith Lord so you expect me to suspend my disbelief that a young girl who only just learned the force is real can overpower a fully trained sith lord? Or that she could pilot a star ship even a smuggler who's owned it almost his whole life still had trouble doing? - Aka The Universe bends to fit her needs.

4. Self explanatory, moving on - aka Smartest and best at what they do

5. Oh trust me, The Universe would WEEP if she died. Even the cold hearted emperor would mourn her death.

Because of this, Rey is a Mary Sue. Sylvanas would not be missed if she died, She constantly fails, she is not the best at what she does, and she is most certainly not loved by everyone except the most evil of villains. Sylvanas is NOT a Mary Sue.

[Blightrose]

Waaaa waaa! Sylvanas. Waaa waaa!

[Yarathir]

Waaaa waaa! Sylvanas. Waaa waaa!

I sure do agree.

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Sylvanas isn't really a mary sue. She is example of why you should never write "smart" characters when you are clearly not capable of making them look like that in organic way. Majority of problems with her come from the whole "4D chess" thing.

Always a problem when people who aren't smart try to write smart characters.
They can't actually write characters that are smarter than they are, so instead they have to make other characters dumber to compensate. That's bad in and of itself.
But it becomes even less believable when master tactician and strategist Sylvanas REEEEEEEeeees at the drop of a dime.

[Ielenia]

Im not a sylvanas fan girl, infact, I hate the character

but she is not a Mary Sue

Mary Sues need to fit the following Criteria in order be counted as Mary Sues

1. They need to be able to do anything without failing. The only time they fail is to fail at solving one problem and immediately find a better solution. If she were ever to fail, the entire cast and crew could not find another solution and thus the whole world / crew is doomed.

2. They need to be loved by everyone. The only people who hate a Mary Sue are the most evil of beings. All the guys want to get with her, and even the Villain is in love with her and wants to be with her.

3. The Universe will actively break its own laws around the Mary Sue. It will bend to suit the Mary Sue's needs and desires in order to help them succeed.

4. They are the smartest, They are the most skilled, they are the best at everything they do.

5. If a Mary Sue dies, the whole universe, even the opposing faction, will mourn her death.

Of all 5 points, Sylvanas only fits ONE of those and that is the Universe bending its own rules to fit her needs but then again blizzard is inserting lore to have it make sense.

I disagree. I think she fits points #1, #4 as well.
• #1 because she is shown doing just that: "Oh, she lost her ticket to immortality when she lost the fight to Genn in Legion? S'ok, she found a new deal with the Jailer". "Oh, look at all the battles she lost in BfA! S'ok, her intention was to cause as many casualties as possible to feed the 'broken death machine' in Shadowlands".
• #4 because: a) she miraculously was saved from killing herself by val'kyrs, after Wrath; b) is told to not use the Blight in the assault on Gilneas, uses it anyways, suffers no consequences; c) somehow entered Helya's domain without anyone in there noticing... Pretty sure there is more, but this is all off the top of my head.

[FuxieDK]

She dominated Saurfang and Bolvar in each fight. She one shot Saurfang with her shadow magic and she utterly dominated Bolvar. The guy couldn't do anything against her.

Now some people will claim that she is not a Mary Sue, because her new powers are explained to originate from the Jailer, since when he grows in power, so does Sylvanas.

But that only proves that she is a Mary Sue. Mary Sue's always have justifications for their powers. It's just something the writers pull out of their ass.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Joke of the year, and it's only just begun...

Anduin and Jaina are currently the biggest Mary Sues in the history of Mary Sues...

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I disagree. I think she fits points #1 as well.

Tell me, in details, how she succeded in capturing the Val'kyr queen in Stormheim?

It was supposed to be her big accomplishement in Legion, and we didn't hear from her again when she failed, for the rest of the expansion.

[Jastall]

Sylvanas isn't really a mary sue. She is example of why you should never write "smart" characters when you are clearly not capable of making them look like that in organic way. Majority of problems with her come from the whole "4D chess" thing.

Indeed. Sylvanas may be smart in comparison to drooling morons who attack a faction known to use super poison gas with no gas masks and no backup plans, but that hardly makes her the stable genius that the writers seem to think she is.

[Usernameforforums]

Sylvanas is at least a thousand years old with plenty of battle experience and to top it off, undead powers. Meanwhile saurfang and bolvar are less than 100 years old.

Not saying this removes the status of a mary sue but it should at least be factored in to reasoning. Theres at least 10 times more unknown lore to sylvanas to both bolvar and saurfang known and unknown lore.

[Soon-TM]

But Sylvanas has suffered many loses all the way up into Legion even, till she was empowered...even old man Greymane bested her and that is why she went into hiding pretty much till she found another way to get empowered. I think it's a little silly she bested Bolvar so easily...but there is no way she would have handled things so easily if she wasn't empowered by a outside source.

She may have "failed" (in a purely literal sense) plenty of times - but she seems to become more powerful after each of these "failures". Ditto for her supposed flaws, which do not impede her in the slightest, since once again, she never suffers from any drawback worth mentioning. Here's a little thing worth reading:

Mary Sue is hardly limited to always being a goody two-shoes. This brand of Mary Sue decided to take the dark and evil path, kicking a few dogs and probably cackling about it in the process. Whether it be stealing the Cosmic Keystones out of the grasp of the heroes, effortlessly bringing about the ironic utopia of the other villain, or just generally acting like a cad, they absolutely love to be evil.

This character generally shows up as an author's wish fulfillment to be evil. Alternatively, in fanfiction, it might show up because the author favors the villain and wants a vicarious relationship with them. It might be a consequence of Evil Is Cool, taken to the logical extreme. Or, perhaps, the author just has a distaste for some (or all) of the protagonists and created the character to facilitate a Hate Fic, Fix Fic, or Revenge Fic. Either way, the same author favoritism and plot bias are now working for the forces of evil. It may also come about as an attempt to create a Magnificent Bastard or similar style of villain, only to go too far and become one of these.

As far as overlaps go, there are two major ones. Sympathetic Sue is an easy one where the intent is to show that the character just had a crappy enough life to be forced into villainy. With this overlap, they are more of a Villain Protagonist than an antagonist in most cases. Tends to show up most often in fanfiction. Expect the backstory to either be so extreme as to be a Deus Angst Machina or so laughably weak in comparison to their evil acts that it makes them Unintentionally Unsympathetic. The other common overlap is the God-Mode Sue, with a ridiculous power level, forcing the heroes to hold the Idiot Ball, and/or requiring Deus ex Machina in order for the protagonists to stand a chance of defeating them. This is the type that generally shows up in canon. It can overlap with other types, such as Jerk Sue, as well, but it never overlaps with Purity Sue (although they might become one after the Heel–Face Turn, once the plot forgets everything evil about them).

The last sentence is also very telling of what might happen if Danuser&co. decide to redeem her, aka Kerrigan 2.0

[KaPe]

You'll notice Greymane did not stop her making a pact with the Death God. In fact, we can't even accurately point to WHEN she made this pact, because as you so conveniently pointed out - She disappeared for the rest of Legion, and reappeared at the start of BfA with the pact already. So not only did Greymane not stop her - Literally no one was allowed to stop her, because it did not fit the narrative.

It's kinda the same thing that happened with Ashvane. Oh, Sylvanas totally had time to meet with Azshara, make some secret plans together, pass the newly freed prisoner to her and lead the war against the Alliance. All at the same time, off-screen, without anyone (other than Nathanos... maybe) knowing what happened.

Her big duel with Saurfang was slightly different, but ultimately, same result. She completely crushed him and only "defeated" herself because she didn't need anyone anymore. She already "won" something far bigger offscreen. Hell, even Undercity - massive casualties due to blight = Jailer is still empowered = she can mock Anduin to his face because she knows she'll get away and doesn't give a damn about the place anyway.

It's all the same - she "loses", but it doesn't really matters, because it still furthers her goal. Stormheim was fine back when it happened, but it's made completely irrelevant due to later informations.

[Big Thanks]

AND?

Do you know how many MALE mary sues exist in movies and media?

infinite amount.

So what one female is mary sue

[Quaade]

You can play through her death in a game. The video was just artistic license. She attacked Arthas directly when she was completely out of options and backed against a wall. She didn't guitar slide up to him accidentally.

By that logic then all the things in WC1 and 2 that were retconned to make the WoW game world possible are also valid and the changes are "artistic license." This was her personal thoughts, what we saw in Warbringers: Sylvanas is now that she did something utterly stupid for vanity than because she was out of options. She had an option in that situation: let them die instead of trying to save them in a way that put her in danger.

[Kithelle]

The conflict with Greymane in Legion was a setback that affected her negatively in no way, shape or form. She lost nothing. She suffered no consequences from that. And her going into hiding after that doesn't really mean anything.


But here's the problem: Shadowlands pushed Sylvanas further into 'Mary Sue' territory when we find out that that she was intentionally causing as many casualties as possible to 'feed' the broken death machine in the Shadowlands.

So yeah. Even when she lost, she still won.

She lost her chance at immortality so she had to serve yet another master for a new chance...in case you haven't noticed Sylvanas isn't the sort of person who likes serving others, doing what she is told.

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She may have "failed" (in a purely literal sense) plenty of times - but she seems to become more powerful after each of these "failures". Ditto for her supposed flaws, which do not impede her in the slightest, since once again, she never suffers from any drawback worth mentioning. Here's a little thing worth reading:





The last sentence is also very telling of what might happen if Danuser&co. decide to redeem her, aka Kerrigan 2.0

How did she become more powerful? In the last few expansions she was killed by someone with a simple gun...beaten by a old man...and foolishly goaded into failing multiple times. She is by no means perfect and she didn't show any kind of "OMG" levels of power till she made her pact with the jailer.

Mary Sues are born perfect...Sylvanas wasn't.

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They literally did explain how.

Her goal in capturing the Val'kyr was to extend her Val'kyr ranks, and by proxy, extend her own life as she can sacrifice them to stay alive.

She failed in capturing the Val'kyr, then without needing to go through any trial or tribulation, suddenly found herself in pact with a death god who - Conveniently - gave her a separate path to power and, thus as a god of death, later immortality.

You'll notice Greymane did not stop her making a pact with the Death God. In fact, we can't even accurately point to WHEN she made this pact, because as you so conveniently pointed out - She disappeared for the rest of Legion, and reappeared at the start of BfA with the pact already. So not only did Greymane not stop her - Literally no one was allowed to stop her, because it did not fit the narrative. Despite having more than enough reason to be suspicious of Sylvanas, no one thought to follow her after Stormheim to figure out what was happening from here on? Despite having failed in Stormheim - She still came about exactly what she was looking for in Stormheim, with conveniently no obstacle this time.

Worse, looking back at the story of BfA - Why were we following her again? Because the narrative LITERALLY FORCED US TO. From day 1 a large majority of the Horde players have been speaking out about how unbelievable us following Sylvanas still is, but yet, we were forced to follow through the entirety of BfA regardless of if we didn't agree with the actions being taken. We had literally no choice but to fulfill her narrative.

She was being covert? She brought a fleet and a army with her and she was found out...maybe she hid in a case and the Jailer whispered to her for all we know? She was more careful and covert this time around...not to mention these actions were put forth by the Jailer...I mean who you think was responsible for Vol'jin picking her as Warchief?

[Soon-TM]

How did she become more powerful? In the last few expansions she was killed by someone with a simple gun...beaten by a old man...and foolishly goaded into failing multiple times. She is by no means perfect and she didn't show any kind of "OMG" levels of power till she made her pact with the jailer.

Mary Sues are born perfect...Sylvanas wasn't.

She 1 shot Saurfang and beat the crap out of the LK without breaking a sweat. Do you play the game? And while Sylvanas arguably wasn't a Sue in the early days of WoW, now most certainly is, because nowhere in the Mary Sue trope is stated that a character must "be born perfect". In fact, a Mary Sue doesn't even need to be perfect, his/her flaws not carrying any actual consequences is more than enough.