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  1. #101
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Yeeeeeeeeeeah no. People find flawless characters boring, hence the term to describe them as such. Nothing to do being "misogynistic". The gender of the character is irrelevant...
    That's cute, but Mary Sue is 100% a bullshit derogatory term for female characters used by men (using that term loosely) who are angry because said female character is powerful or successful/etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Y'all can pretend this isn't a thing all you want, but it is very much a thing.

    "omg Rey is a Mary Sue how is she so powerful REEEEEEEEEE"
    "Captain Marvel is such a Mary Sue p.s. omg smile more REEEEEEEE"
    "Sylvanas is a Mary Sue who cares if she is actually deeply flawed and we understand where her new power comes from REEEEEEE"

    I could go on and on, but it is genuinely hilarious to me how mad some guys get at the idea of a fictional female character that is powerful or accomplishes something. Because pretend characters with pretend abilities in a pretend storyline are so important, right? Its totally worth stroking out over Captain Marvel, or Rey's use of the force, or Jaina/Sylvanas/whatever.

    And literally nothing about Sylvanas is 'flawless' - she's probably the most deeply flawed, hateful character in the lore at this point. But sure, lets call her a Mary Sue because reasons™.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakshana View Post
    You're so woke.
    Oh hey, I found a photo of people who care what you think.

    Last edited by Mirishka; 2020-01-01 at 12:30 AM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by yamix View Post
    They do the 'character has major moment, does nothing, then dies' a lot. They screwed Vol'jin as Warchief.

    Jaina is no better than Sylvanas - there don't seem to be any rules to those characters at all.
    Yeah i said once Goldie gurl writes all the female power (poorly)
    https://i.imgur.com/0DKvGdU.png

    If there's something that annoys me being a woman, is seeing feminists and their "masculinity toxic" talks.

    http://www.fighting4fair.com/wp-cont...asculinity.jpg

  3. #103
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salate View Post
    overpowered character because “reasons”. Mary sue actually is a common thing for alotta chars. Remember Rey from Star Wars?
    lol this again.

    If Rey was a Mary Sue, so was every force user.

  4. #104
    Sylvanas is not a Mary Sue but she has become a boring character without real vulnerabilities. In fiction it helps to give very powerful characters some weaknesses. The classic example of this is Achilles. You can also look to pop culture with Superman who is vulnerable to a certain mineral, or Batman, who is vulnerable to the exposure of his secret identity along with all the normal things that hurt human beings. In fantasy you can look to characters like Frodo who are vulnerable, weak, tiny, and mortal. Or as some people have brought up Game of Thrones -- at least the early books -- in which everyone is very clearly mortal.

    Characters with no vulnerabilities who triumph over every challenge effortlessly are just not interesting. There is no dramatic tension there. Sylvanas' character arc in WC3 is interesting because despite being a Ranger-General fighting in defense of an elven empire thousands of years old, she is defeated and then twisted to serve the Lich King to crush the remnants of the former alliance she fought for. Then, she recoups some of her moral strength to resist the LK and the Burning Legion.

    Then that arc is rendered meaningless by BFA's plot. This is a problem that you see in other mega corporate fiction franchises that persist for ever more decades because so many thousands of jobs and shareholders are relying on the franchise to keep continuing long after it's even possible to keep the plot interesting with the same characters without invalidating previous plot arcs. Star Wars has suffered from this most obviously -- the franchise just should have either ended or they should have done a massive timline jump.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    In modern days or on this forum it's basically code for "Female character I don't like and because they were not brutally killed they are totally a Mary Sue."
    Hardly.

    And there's a male version (Marty Stu)

  6. #106
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The funny thing is, this is more accurate than you could ever know.

    Or at least, all the Skywalkers are. Literally the entire story of Star Wars has apparently been "Let's watch how the family of Sue's are getting along."
    It's not more accurate than I could ever know. I knew what I was typing.

    The issue with people crying about Rey being a Mary Sue isn't that they're necessarily wrong, it's that they don't apply that same criticism to the rest of the series and especially male characters.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Except Rey is a Palpatine. She inherited power from her grandfather, the Emperor.
    Which is not how The Force works, as we've been told for the last 30 years.

    There were plenty of Jedi that came from nothing.

    And, on top of that, they still had to train. Rey did not.

    She's a near-dictionary perfect definition of a Mary Sue.

    Sylvanas is not, however, because of one thing:

    Mary Sue's are protagonists.

    Sylvanas is an antagonist.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post


    Oh hey, I found a photo of people who care what you think.
    Dayum!!! lmao

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The funny thing is, this is more accurate than you could ever know.

    Or at least, all the Skywalkers are. Literally the entire story of Star Wars has apparently been "Let's watch how the family of Sue's are getting along."
    Actually, the entire story of Star Wars was the Rise, fall, and Redemption (through his descendants) of Anakin Skywalker. As told by R2-D2.

    At least, that's the story that George was telling. Basically stolen from Akira Kurosawa's films, particularly The Hidden Fortress (though Kurosawa was all for it, as a way to get his stories into America; same reason he was flattered by The Magnificent Seven)

    The new Trilogy didn't stick to that all, but the first six did, quite well. Wether they were any GOOD as films (the actual story being told in the Prequels is fine; the acting, directing, etc, were middling to terrible) is a different topic.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    snippy
    Nah, Mary Sue as a concept is fine, but I will admit that it gets overused on things that aren't quite Mary Sues.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    Lol, you're not too bright, are you?
    The serious irony here is staggeringly funny.

    If Sylvanas is a Mary Sue, so is Bolvar. Just because he put the Helm on doesn't make him Arthas, or even a fraction as powerful. I guess you missed the distinct absence of Frostmourne, too. "BuT sHe MaN-hAnDleD da LiCh KiNg"
    Actually, it does. The Power of the Lich King was in the Helm of Domination. Like, straight up. Thats literally how the Lich King was created.

    But hey, you rock on there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Nah, Mary Sue as a concept is fine, but I will admit that it gets overused on things that aren't quite Mary Sues.
    I'd agree with this.

    Same with the term "retcon" getting constantly used for things that are not actually retcons.

  12. #112
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    The thing isn't necessarily that Mary sues have no flaws - it's that their flaws don't matter. Sylvanas having her head stuffed so far up her own ass she can see daylight doesn't make her a flawed character, because that flaw means nothing in terms of her achieving what she wants to achieve and obtaining what she wants to obtain.
    To be fair, Sylvanas wasn't *always* a Mary Sue. But she was definitely a Mary Sue in BFA. And she looks to be even more of a Mary Sue in Shadowlands. There are also a lot of types of Mary Sue. As pointed out by someone above me, Sylvanas currently fits the Villian Sue archetype pretty well.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkarra View Post
    I never die.
    Good one. You just basically admitted to being a new account of someone already banned. Mods can you please swing the almighty ban hammer on this obvious troll who is calling people retarded and telling them to kill themselves?

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkarra View Post
    She dominated Saurfang and Bolvar in each fight. She one shot Saurfang with her shadow magic and she utterly dominated Bolvar. The guy couldn't do anything against her.

    Now some people will claim that she is not a Mary Sue, because her new powers are explained to originate from the Jailer, since when he grows in power, so does Sylvanas.

    But that only proves that she is a Mary Sue. Mary Sue's always have justifications for their powers. It's just something the writers pull out of their ass.
    Except she does have flaws and weaknesses. She lost to Malfurian and needed Saurfang to help her. She lost to Arthas, twice. She fought Genn and wounded him but ultimately lost as he broke the lantern that controls the Val’kyr.
    She’s not a Mary Sue. You even said yourself her NEW power is from an alliance with the Jailer.
    If you want to see a true Mary Sue then look to Alice from the Resident Evil movies, or Rey from Star Wars. 2 characters who never lose, never make a mistake, and always have new and improved power for any given situation regardless of what we were previously shown.
    Before you counter with an aggressive “fanboy” attack, I’m not even a fan of Sylvanas. I used to like her character back in WotLK and Cata, when she was a tortured character seeking vengeance and being misunderstood for being dead. Now, Blizz has made her one dimensional with their retcons of the Wrathgate and burning of Teldrassil and she’s just a base villain now. Blizz has had plenty of opportunity to make her nuanced and have hidden motives that could have made her morally gray, or even heroic, but they are going (so far) the route of Garrosh and I hate it. I’m just not blinded with hate about the character, like some, that have to make things up to justify their hate.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamercus View Post
    Sylvanas is not a Mary Sue but she has become a boring character without real vulnerabilities.
    That... that's the definition of a Mary Sue, though...

  16. #116
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alteiry View Post
    That... that's the definition of a Mary Sue, though...
    I think they actually meant, that Sylvanas didn't start out as a Mary Sue. And she didn't. She became a Mary Sue in the latter part of Legion.

  17. #117
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Which is not how The Force works, as we've been told for the last 30 years.

    There were plenty of Jedi that came from nothing.

    And, on top of that, they still had to train. Rey did not.

    She's a near-dictionary perfect definition of a Mary Sue.

    Sylvanas is not, however, because of one thing:

    Mary Sue's are protagonists.

    Sylvanas is an antagonist.
    The force isn't real. It works however the story/script needs it to work, and there are plenty of games and EU stories with characters who are wildly powerful Jedi/Sith etc without all the 'back in my day, a Jedi had to TRAIN to be something!' whippersnappering.

    And within the SW canon Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith to have ever lived, and yet people are STILL whining about Rey's power despite her being a direct descendant of him.

    I guarantee you, 100% guaran-fucking-tee you, that we would not have seen anywhere near the same level of complaining about Rey had she been a man. Especially one it was revealed that he was a descendant of Sheev Palpatine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    lol this again.

    If Rey was a Mary Sue, so was every force user.
    Careful now, logic and common sense aren't welcome round' these parts.

  18. #118
    Sylvanas isn’t horde anymore last I checked.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    That's cute, but Mary Sue is 100% a bullshit derogatory term for female characters used by men (using that term loosely) who are angry because said female character is powerful or successful/etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Y'all can pretend this isn't a thing all you want, but it is very much a thing.

    "omg Rey is a Mary Sue how is she so powerful REEEEEEEEEE"
    "Captain Marvel is such a Mary Sue p.s. omg smile more REEEEEEEE"
    "Sylvanas is a Mary Sue who cares if she is actually deeply flawed and we understand where her new power comes from REEEEEEE"

    I could go on and on, but it is genuinely hilarious to me how mad some guys get at the idea of a fictional female character that is powerful or accomplishes something. Because pretend characters with pretend abilities in a pretend storyline are so important, right? Its totally worth stroking out over Captain Marvel, or Rey's use of the force, or Jaina/Sylvanas/whatever.

    And literally nothing about Sylvanas is 'flawless' - she's probably the most deeply flawed, hateful character in the lore at this point. But sure, lets call her a Mary Sue because reasons™.



    Oh hey, I found a photo of people who care what you think.

    You must really enjoy listening to yourself talk for the absolute sake of it... Believe whatever you want.

  20. #120
    @Mirishka

    This is not perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
    The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

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