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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they are night elves no longer
    I talked about what the Suramar society was, not specifically going into what we classify the nightborne themselves as, that's another conversation though. Nightborne society is kaldorei pre-sundering society at least up to the end of the Nighthold raid. Now they've joined the horde they can become something apart from their Kaldorei roots and lifestyle. I know it's hard for people to see this, because when you say kaldorei they almost always think of forests, druidsm and sometimes Elune, not realising pre-sundering KAldorei is also fully kaldorei.

    Thalyssra talks of joining the horde and mentioning staying in the alliance her people will not suffer such stagnation ever again, I think she is referring to continuing in the ancient Kaldorei tradition Suramar has been stagnating under for 10k years (even though they advanced, quests show us that it was slow and prolonged) I can imagine the energy and drive of the blood elves must have felt re-invograting and refreshing whereas the kaldorei and highborne would have been viewed as pretty much the same ol. It is technically not true, but everyone is entitled to their views. I feel pursuing druidsm and catching up on Elune studies would have re-invograted their society, the Darnassian Kaldorei themselves had also changed a lot, and were moving with the times, but she never cared to find that out.

    However that is part ot he narrative and it's what the developers wrote for her, we can discuss the ill merits of that, but that is the choice they made, and at the end of it, so was the choice not to make them druids. doesn't eman we can't discuss it. Many of these decisions don't come after thorough lore consideration or obsessing over elves, most of the times they make a quick decision and move on, we are the ones that usually should provide them with vital stuff they miss.

    It's happened many a times tha the community has reminded them or corrected them on something and they've taken on board, seen and changed. The problem is, unless the thing causes a lot of noise, they usually don't notice it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    there is nothing implying he is a defacto druid either, regardless don't mean he will teach then, he only help then with the tree

    again, for him tot each an high arcane based civilization would be the same thing as taurens teaching goblins to be druids
    But there is nothing to suggest that he isn't now, and he operates and beahves like a druid, it isn't unreasonable to go with that assumption as an individual living in a land that is so close too and connected with druidsm in a forest nearby. I don't think a proto druid would have remained a proto druid after Malfurion and Cenarius …. in case like this, you should only doubt that he isn't a druid if direct evidence says otherwise because he behaves, acts as one and his background story makes it so obvious that it shouldn't need stating directly.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Psykho View Post
    Well yes I'll admit the spells used by the hostile version of the mob do point more mage then druid, though it could be compared to the Harvest-witches(who are ironically closer to real life druids) who were at most capable of increasing crop output and perhaps shapeshifting as Greymane was reminded of a Harvest witch when he saw a Night Elf Druid transform from a bird, not true Druids, but have the potential to learn true druidism
    I don't know if this is canon or not, this is just my interpretation, but I think the Gilnean 'harvest witches' are not actual druids, they just have some nature powers, and just exist to justify your non-worgen-fied Worgen alt a "trainer" to have druid powers, like a warrior trainer would teach their pupil the art of fighting before said pupil joins the church to become a paladin.

    I think it's the curse itself and the connection to Goldrinn that gives the Gilneans the connection to druidism and its magic they need to become actual druids.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-01-01 at 10:07 PM.
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  3. #123
    Stood in the Fire Resentless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aigilas View Post
    its easy, they dont need new art assets to make them a monk, they do for druid
    Sadly, it is literally this. Monks dont even fit half the races they are given to, but its a good class to get tank/dps/healer roles available.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't know if this is canon or not, this is just my interpretation, but I think the Gilnean 'harvest witches' are not actual druids, they just have some nature powers, and just exist to justify your non-worgen-fied Worgen alt a "trainer" to have druid powers, like a warrior trainer would teach their pupil the art of fighting before said pupil joins the church to become a paladin.

    I think it's the curse itself and the connection to Goldrinn that gives the Gilneans the connection to druidism and its magic they need to become actual druids.
    Ye they are like pagan culture. Then they got teached by night elves later.

  5. #125
    they spent 10000 years right next to Val'Sharah. If they were going to study druidism, they'd done it by now.

  6. #126
    Herald of the Titans Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You don't think the Zandalari would go out of their way to learn and incorporate a fighting style that defeated a powerful ally of theirs in the past?
    Not really. They are too proud imo
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Resentless View Post
    Sadly, it is literally this. Monks dont even fit half the races they are given to, but its a good class to get tank/dps/healer roles available.
    Have to agree that blizzard gets a bit lazy on art assets when they already are working on something else. But then i see dottie being a pet on the shop and think to myself what in the hell! xD or even taking time to add a disco party in the Auction house.

    But druids are also an exceptional race to dps/tank/heal tho. And even can dps both range and "melee" as cat.
    (i also love monk one of my favorite classes)

  8. #128
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I talked about what the Suramar society was, not specifically going into what we classify the nightborne themselves as, that's another conversation though. Nightborne society is kaldorei pre-sundering society at least up to the end of the Nighthold raid. Now they've joined the horde they can become something apart from their Kaldorei roots and lifestyle. I know it's hard for people to see this, because when you say kaldorei they almost always think of forests, druidsm and sometimes Elune, not realising pre-sundering KAldorei is also fully kaldorei.
    they are no longer night elves, their race changed

    Even if their society resemble the highborn of old who were night elves, those elves were not druids either, in both way the logic is wrong




    But there is nothing to suggest that he isn't now
    he not being before, and with ntohing seeming to change, does suggest heis not a defacto druid

    he behaves, acts as one and his background story makes it so obvious that it shouldn't need stating directly.
    and and behave are not something that important, shamans also behave and act like druids sometimes, yet they are not

    still don't change the fact that for him tot each then would be the same as a tauren teaching a goblin, or everything is available, or nothing about this pick bias

  9. #129
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    LMAO that gave me the laughs! Oh shiet thanks ahaha

    Tauren druid: ok now... try shapeshift into a bear
    Nightborne: Ugh... the stench of a bear...
    Bwonsamdi: Yo don't steal my lines.
    lol they would turn druidism inside out.

  10. #130
    CBA reading seven pages of weird takes on Druidism, but...

    Nightbornes do not exactly care for Nature. The botanists used flowers and trees for aesthetic purposes, shaping them to look as they wanted them to, not as they should've grown out to. While they might offer an interesting take on mix of Arcane and Nature due to Arcan'dor, they by nature (pardon the pun) do not care much for Nature - so why should they be Druids?

    We already saw the disregard towards Nature from Farondis (not even a Night Elf) in Azsuna, with how vain they are regarding unwanted animals or w/e, so Nightborne who cage animals and keep them in a zoo or pervert the surrounding land with Arcane - doesn't really scream Druid to me, does it? Valewalker dude was mostly intrigued by Arcan'dor anyway, and Nightborne only care about it because it can cure them from their addiction.

    As for monks, I'm not sure either. Some of the race/class combinations with monks make no sense.

  11. #131
    Bloodsail Admiral Evaddon's Avatar
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    They kept turning themselves into trees! Why do you think Suramar has so many?

  12. #132
    Warchief Lupinemancer's Avatar
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    It's simple. They were isolated long before the Night Elves even adopted the Druitic ways, so they never learned it, yet when they joined the Horde, the Pandarens were tere and could teach them Martial Arts which I assume they refered.

    You are welcome.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Tell me, who was the first druid?
    First priest of Gonk or one of Yaungol. I am not counting Freya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Wow....I can't believe I just read that? You do know who the first Druid is? Hint: It wasn't a Tauren or a Troll
    It was either a tauren or troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Yeh probably, but they had no trouble spending time working on the Highmountain Tauren druids in a race that had no druidsm or connection or involvement to druids in their entire quest line, history telling, not a trace.. whereas druidsm plays a major role in the nightborne, and nature tender botansits are seen. They could have spent the time developing the nightborne forms rather than the Tauren ones and given usmore insight to the balance druid spec. Meanwhile the highmountain become druids brings nothing to the class, and one feels based on the highmountain zone story that they were just thrown in because Tauren are druids, and the class devs don't really communicate with the creative team.

    Basically it's a mistake on their part, and it just continue to show us they are not as thorough with presenting their lore as we'd like.
    Highmountain are tauren blessed by Cenarius with horns. They are naturally druidic. It is like asking why do void elves have shadow priests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupinemancer View Post
    It's simple. They were isolated long before the Night Elves even adopted the Druitic ways, so they never learned it, yet when they joined the Horde, the Pandarens were tere and could teach them Martial Arts which I assume they refered.

    You are welcome.
    They also met Farodin in between.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they are no longer night elves, their race changed

    Even if their society resemble the highborn of old who were night elves, those elves were not druids either, in both way the logic is wrong
    Again, talking about society, not race. But the same is for the race.. we often get into silly classification arguments when source material has no definite standard to go by. What is playable races in game menu is not necessarily so in lore, because race doesn't always mean same category of species and Warcraft lore doesn't define exactly what that means for people groups with similarities.

    Sub-race is coined term to show a group that is related to a larger group, there is no fixed definition there either. I can argue endlessly from my perspective of nightborne being a night elven su-race, part of the night elven umbrella race because they are nocturnal and kaldorei based, we dont' even know what the exact genetic variations are, they are not as extensive as the high elves, evidently from appearance, but that's the only standard, it could easily turn out that nightborne appearance is just skinny night elves who's ear tips curled upwards. Skin tone changes are just rarer kaldorei tones exxacebated by the night well, or it could be a completely new genome of elf.

    Regardless of whether it is or not, what we can clearly see is Suramar is kaldorei pre-sundering society that has continued for 10k years, the quests directly tell us thenightborne have preserved this culture pristinelyfor millennia. And we don't need to take the game's word for it now do we. But just in case we don't, the Suramar we read in War of the Ancients is shown in 7.0 as if it was lifted off the pages. and if that wasn't enough, the tons of kaldorei sattutes, the same bear footed civilized savage outlook, same nightsaber/cats for mounts nad pets, it is literally kaldorei elements just arcanised as you would expect of arcane using kaldorei.

    They are not introduced as something completely different from the Kaldorei either, they are introduced from the arcane civilization side of the kaldorei rather than something entirely unique. They are just a unique expression of kaldorei, or rather the arcane expression of them as related to the pre-sundering society for the kaldorei. Not that it makes much of a difference




    he not being before, and with ntohing seeming to change, does suggest heis not a defacto druid
    As you wish, I'm just saying, in cases like this, it seems more logical to assume he is
    based on what we are shown of him u
    nless proven or outright shown he isn't

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    First priest of Gonk or one of Yaungol. I am not counting Freya.

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    It was either a tauren or troll.

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    Highmountain are tauren blessed by Cenarius with horns. They are naturally druidic. It is like asking why do void elves have shadow priests.

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    They also met Farodin in between.
    1) the first Troll druid was introduced in Wrath at the earliest 10000+ years after Malfurion was taught by Cenarius, Gonk did have priests beforehand, but they weren't Druids, Troll druids are stated to follow a method of worshiping multiple Loa at once, and was never done till Wrath
    2) it's been confirmed that Malfurion is in fact the first druid, Tauren merely thought they were the first
    3) the Horns of Eche'ro were gifted to the Highmountain in the later years of the War of the ancients, the scenario literally has you talk to Malfurion who is clearly casting Druidic magic
    Last edited by Psykho; 2020-01-01 at 10:48 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    You said to pay attention to the lore, here's my own "citation": Lor'themar was the one that exiled the High Elves. He is seen as a traitor for them.
    This is where things are going to get muddled... you mean the elves that refused to follow the new blood elven thinking that is the response to being told to go die for the alliance? Cause I'll be honest, you gotta be some kind of stupid to STILL be content to go stay with the bunch of people who were quite fine with sending your brethren to die so others can be safe and then scorned the survivors for living...

    I was asking for a citation to get a good idea of which time you were referring to cause, to be honest, the elves were already scorned before the point I think you're referencing... So really, how can you still view Quel'thalas as the traitors when they were pushed into a bad situation and left to die by their allies and condemned to death when they didn't die completing their assigned missions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    You saying that if you got kicked in the ass of your own house you wouldn't feel betrayed? So much he is a betrayer to them, that high elves plotted against blood elves in Dalaran by murdering them.
    Your example seems to entirely disregard that the nation itself was already turned on by it's allies. This is where the whole set up of who is really the traitor is going to get up-ended. Cause you want to say the blood elves are the traitors because they turned on the alliance... but I'm saying that the lore establishes that the alliance had already turned on Quel'thalas prior which is what set the stage for the events you're referencing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post

    High elves stayed with the alliance on the second war = Silver covenant, which are fine with him. Or stopped caring.
    Actually, the covenant are a branch established post 3rd war to stand against Blood Elf presence in Dalaran. It's true they are high elves that stayed with the alliance but they also stayed through the events of the third war... keep in mind that the Grand Marshall of the Alliance abused his authority and called for the execution of Quel'thalas' last crown prince and all his associates and not a single member of the alliance lifted a finger to help bring justice.... Fact that this was something held within the grounds of Dalaran makes one question what people think the high elves are supposed to care about such things...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Those who got exiled hate him to the core because they didn't stay with the alliance but instead they got exiled for refusing draining magic. Quel'Danil High Elves too.
    This type of argument assumes that there was even much desire to stay IN. The alliance and Quel'thalas' place within it is something that has been a subject multiple leaders were on the fence over. Like during the 2nd war when the Elves didn't want to involve themselves except for the fact that they pledged to support one specific nation when needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    But with all honesty and due respect i'm not up to talk about high elves, i have done it enough on the High Elf official thread discussion. This is a thread about nightbornes being druids, not politics and high elves all over again. P.S. - you have there 700+ pages all about this. Which some i even provided the information and showed quotes and sites where i explain this here.
    Such a shame, it seems like a good deal of info isn't understood.


    edit:

    So it seems you want to label Quel'thalas as traitors for exiling the high elves that didn't agree with the handling of events post third war but will disregard the betrayal of loyalties exhibited in the third war which happened prior. IMO you can't really call the blood elves traitors to the alliance because they were left to die and condemned to death first before they could actually do anything remotely resembling a 'betrayal'
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2020-01-01 at 11:09 PM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't know if this is canon or not, this is just my interpretation, but I think the Gilnean 'harvest witches' are not actual druids, they just have some nature powers, and just exist to justify your non-worgen-fied Worgen alt a "trainer" to have druid powers, like a warrior trainer would teach their pupil the art of fighting before said pupil joins the church to become a paladin.

    I think it's the curse itself and the connection to Goldrinn that gives the Gilneans the connection to druidism and its magic they need to become actual druids.
    As I said Harvest-witches aren't "true" druids like the Nightborne botanists and the Thornspeakers in Kul'tiras presumably are only "true" druids because they were taught by Olfar as they are 1) presented as having a similar role as harvest witches and 2) are part of a nation that was descended from Gilnean sailors

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    anyone can be monks, hunters, mages, and most of the other races at 1 lv, 1 lv is not a big deal, to grow and be a hero, is hard

    anyone can be a grunt, or a mere hunter, what make us different than the npcs and normal people is just that
    Levels don't exist in actual lore, you realise this right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    First priest of Gonk or one of Yaungol. I am not counting Freya.

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    It was either a tauren or troll.

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    Highmountain are tauren blessed by Cenarius with horns. They are naturally druidic. It is like asking why do void elves have shadow priests.

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    They also met Farodin in between.
    Nah, Malfurion according to essentially every lore source and Blizzard themselves

  19. #139
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I don't understand why this didn't happen. Valewalker Farodin's close and integral role with the nightborne as well as the Val'sharah druids and priest refugees who join them up, not to mention the very active Botanists who work with nature magic amongst the nightborne...


    This demonstrates both an aptitude for nature and relationships with druids who are actively help and like them. Valewalker Farodin is fond of them. Furthermore you see they have members that love nature, why aren't they druids?

    The Arcan'dor the centre of their new identity replacing the Nightwell with its dual arcane/nature composition

    How the F*** are they able to be monks before druids...?


    I don't understand...? Druidsm in wow no longer efels elven, seriously 1 out of 6 playable druids are elves. It feels more a troll/tauren thing now. I use to feel druidsm was the elven equivalent of other races shamanism, a more intellectual approach to nature full of elven softness and love for the beauty of nature.. it has that tone for it. Whiles shamanism felt more Tauren/orc/troll like - based not on love but on respect/fear for nature of w hich the lements are a major part of (just as when we think of natural sources, we think of wind, storms earthquakes, as well as trees and animals - it's all part of nature in our understanding).

    Anyway, druidsm in wow had a distinct elven feel to it that it has lost by the failure to bring it to the other elven groups. The most likely candidate were the nightborne.
    It’s actually a very good thing Druidism is no longer tied to night elves because elves are the weakest link in Warcraft’s lore. Nothing close to the depth and appeal of Tolkien elves Blizzard tried so hard to replicate.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    It’s actually a very good thing Druidism is no longer tied to night elves because elves are the weakest link in Warcraft’s lore. Nothing close to the depth and appeal of Tolkien elves Blizzard tried so hard to replicate.
    You may think so, but many people actually like them and they are the main attraction to wow over all other races, when you combine the playerbase that plays the 4 elven race, they are nearly half of the playerbase.

    You may think they're the weakest link with nothing close to the depth and appeal of Tolkein elves (which I agree with you on the second part) but warcraft has always been cheese, and their elves are a bit cheese despite the cool concepts for them. But you know most of wow is "cool" with little substance.

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