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  1. #161
    Because the Nightborne, like most Highborne, rejected druidism before the War of the Ancients. There is absolutely no reason why they would want to reform their entire society just because a single proto-druid with no interest in recruiting disciples helped one of their leaders during the rebellion.

    I know from previous threads that you have a strong desire for some kind of nature-arcane elven society, but this does not seem to be something any in-universe elves actually want. Quite realistically each elven culture is more interested in preserving their own centuries-long distinct culture and traditions, rather than throwing it all out the window for something new.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Psykho View Post
    They were never Druids till Gonk introduced the technique of worshipping multiple loa at once, which didn't happen till Wrath at the earliest
    He taught that Darkspear to beat Zalazane. Zandalari had their Raptari long before.
    As for concerning the Yaungol I shall quote Wowpedia's page on Druids
    "According to tauren mythology, Cenarius (the patron for all druids) instructed them first in druidism as recounted in their myth Forestlord and the First Druids. As it stands, the night elves claim the first druid was Malfurion Stormrage, an idea challenged by the tauren beliefs. This is clarified in Chronicle. Cenarius did live among yaungol, the ancestors to the tauren, when they settled near the Well of Eternity between the 12,000 and 11,900 BDP, but Malfurion was the first to be trained in the ways of the druid, around year 10,000 BDP. This is why Malfurion is referred to as the first mortal druid. The yaungol could thus be compared to the early humans who used crude nature magic, a primitive sort of druidism, like the Gilnean harvest-witches. A similar case can be said about Valewalker Farodin, who was a student of an ancient order of keepers predating the druidic traditions of the night elves, and not full druids themselves"
    "Primitive" druidism is enough to justify a playable class.
    and on the topic of Highmountain specifically you presented the horns of Eche'ro as proof they were naturally druids before Malfurion I was merely pointing out it was far from the truth
    No. I said that current Highmountain are naturally druids while night elves are not.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  3. #163
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    That's an intersting way of looking at it. Although I don't entirely agree.

    Kaldorei pre-sundering society left druidsm behind because of the power and attraction of an arcane with limitless resources, power and no drawbacks, with a Queen that promoted it above everything else, displaying it's incredible power ... I feel all those parameters have that allowed that state have changed.

    No queen, an arcane having noticeable drawbacks, and nature wielders achieving breath taking feats.

    There is also the affinity and love of nature as an inherent part of the elf... something i dont' believe any night elf's transition to the more night state of nightborne or to a high elf changes either.
    The Shal'dorei are still deeply reverent towards the Arcane, even more so than the ancient Night Elves of yore as they've literally drank the essence of Arcane energy from a Titan World-Soul and had their very beings infused with its essence. I don't think either Azshara or Elisande are really a constituent of that, as ancient Night Elven society had embraced the Arcane well before the coming of Azshara. I don't think either the loss of Elisande nor the miracle of the Arcan'dor are going to change the society of the Nightborne effectively overnight, if at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Today's nightborne like the current Darnassians who had face a post sundering world would have many previous held views challenged and changed, this is noticeable in Tahlyssra for example telling Valtrois to accept the foreign hero, and their acceptance of both the blood elves and the horde demonstrates this, it is not becausee of superiority in any horde race that they accept the horde (becuase the nightborne were more advanced than all horde races), it was because the blood elves were willing to help them and show them the respect they felt they deserved, also sharing their values, meanwhile it is hinted that others "reluctantly" helped.. so it is not primitive vs urbanised situation here, although i can see why people might hink so, you have to bear in mind the alliance has Highborne and high elves too.
    Which I would say is a different argument and/or topic as opposed to the Nightborne's lack of Druidism. Thalyssra and her Nightfallen rebellion saw the need for outside help and aid beyond what they could provide for themselves, overcoming a degree of xenophobia to embrace the world once more. That's well and good on their parts, but doesn't really address that they are products of a society that has promoted the ascendancy of the Arcane for 10,000+ years. They're not going to change their stripes so completely, even if they have evolved somewhat following the close shave with the Legion and the Felborne.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The power of druidsm is quiteveident as it is this that saves the nightborne, furthremore the exploits whcich they would now have heard of, like the world tress, reshaping of the evolution of a world, cloaking a continent, defeating the Burning LEgion, reshaping the wilds - nature wielders of the craft have achieved things no one with the arcane has been able to wield, I highly doubt a sensible nightborne would reject nature like the kaldorei did at the end of Azshara's reign now having seen it's power.
    One could say the same of Shamanism, another route to power that the Nightborne eschew. The Nightborne may indeed show an interest in Druidism in time, though it's highly likely they'll look at it through the lens of the Arcane as opposed to embracing Druidism in its entirety. The Arcan'dor itself is something of a union of the two philosophies - a tenuous and delicate balance of Nature and Arcane. I would have little to no doubt that the Nightborne would emphasize the Arcane side of the equation in the general sense, with a tipping of the proverbial hat to the Nature side without much in the way of exploring it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    THere is also the reality that if you can have social pariahs (urban primitives/starving artists - not a new thing to Suramar) that can have monks as you say it, why can't the botanists have some or all amongst them willing to enhance their knowledge with druidsm? If the Arcnaists look down on druidsm, why would the botanists do the same when their line of work is something that benefits and comes in leaps and bounds with druidsm?
    And perhaps they do, to a much lesser degree. It would explain such individuals like High Botanist Tel'arn in the Nighthold raid, who seems to be a Druid in many ways, combined with Arcane abilities. Though this might also be under the file of exceptions that prove the general rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    My point is that, druidsm is quite feasible from every possible way youc an look at it, and while it is quite possible as well for them not to take it up or have it, they have a good case for it. Nightborne becoming druids would not feel like an arse pull at all, and in the light of their storyline and their heritage, is conceivable.
    It would require time, a lot more time than has currently passed, before Nightborne Druids became so regular a part of Shal'dorei society. I won't argue the potential is there, but right now in my view, the potential is all that's there.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Because the Nightborne, like most Highborne, rejected druidism before the War of the Ancients. There is absolutely no reason why they would want to reform their entire society just because a single proto-druid with no interest in recruiting disciples helped one of their leaders during the rebellion.

    I know from previous threads that you have a strong desire for some kind of nature-arcane elven society, but this does not seem to be something any in-universe elves actually want. Quite realistically each elven culture is more interested in preserving their own centuries-long distinct culture and traditions, rather than throwing it all out the window for something new.
    This is not about what i had desires for in previous threads, lets be objective about it Tharavor.

    People sometimes take your view that because the most highborne rejected druidsm before the war of ancietns.. you say "aboslutely no reasons"... i say that is an un reasonable assertion. Most highborne isn't all highborne, and if an arcane society like the kaldorei coudl adopt druidsm so wholeheartedly under the guidance of one mand who plays an instrumental role, including some highborne and Moonguard arcane users bear in mind as the story goes., then why is it aboslutely impossible for nightborne community (which isn't all highborne either) in the same pre-sundering spread, and having similar and dramatic changes, saved by druidsm, opened to possibilities that chalelnged atheir arorogantly held prejudices, not also have at least some ( ratehr than the whole society0 adopt said druidsm especially after it's power is now quite provable strongas shown in both the nightborne being saved and the feats of druidsm in saving the world and evolving that werne't visible to th epre-sundering kaldorei? Not to emntion the existint of the very visible botanist nature wielding core in the nighthold we have to fight, showing that of all the other disciplines around and magics, nature is the only other one present and wielded by the nightborne outside the arcane. We see evidence to support a mage class, hunter class, warrior and rogue class and druid class. Warlock class through the felborne. A priest class we imagine is possible via the historical Elune connection or possible blood elf light route but there is no evidence of it in the story, nor is there evidecne of monk class, we just see npcs turn up for that and it showing up in teh class selection.


    I wouldn't say nightborne druidsm has "absolutely no reason" as you put it, to be.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    And what about the night elven druid refugees that join the Nightfallen rebellion too, are they not druids too? The whole point is druidsm and nature callers are orking with the nightborne, the Arcan'dor is symbol of balance of nature and the arcane, does that somehow disqualify nightborne from being able to qualify for druidsm when we see blizzard use weaker and wonkier criteria to bring Highmountain, Tauren, Worgen, Trolls into it. Excuse me for believing that this isn't any less likely for the nightborne given the things we are shown.
    These night elven druids just have met nightborne a couple months ago. They are not huge part of their culture. Tauren and Worgen(who had witches anyway) are nature-based races and they are naturally better at druidism, so they learn faster. Compare that to human mages. Trolls, at the other hand, have been worshipping wild gods long before night elves came to existence. They had theoretical background for druidism due to their loa worship and friendship with tauren.

    I agree that arcan'dor is important and interesting but nightborne need time to master new arcanic druidism. It requires inventing new way and night elves(who I doubt would help them) cannot help them much. Currently, it would make more sense to give druids to races that had more time to practise it, like Ironforge dwarves or Stormwind humans.

    But yes, after Shadowlands we can get cool new druids. I would like that.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  6. #166
    Herald of the Titans Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    I think void elves should be druids. They are rejoining the Alliance. It would make sense for them to take on the teachings of the Kaldorei. Plus, can you imagine the void kitty and void bear forms?
    I agree with this... I think any and all elves should be able to be druids, before say, a fat fuckin human..

    Fat human - Can be druid. Regular human - Can't.

    Night elves - Can be druid.. No other elves get to be.

    This makes sense to people?

    It doesn't to me.
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  7. #167
    Herald of the Titans Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psykho View Post
    They were never Druids till Gonk introduced the technique of worshipping multiple loa at once, which didn't happen till Wrath at the earliest
    Gonk is an ancient being. It was introduced only to the Darkspear in Wrath.
    The Zandalari have been in contact with Gonk for millenia which is reflected in their unique brand of druidism that goes hand in hand with dinomancers.
    In fact, Wardruid Loti has championed the return of Druidism as a mainstay in the city of Zuldazar.
    Not even taking into account that the Lun'alai also exist

    Regarding the Tauren:

    Cenarius did live among yaungol, the ancestors to the tauren, when they settled near the Well of Eternity between the 12,000 and 11,900 BDP, but Malfurion was the first to be trained in the ways of the druid, around year 10,000 BDP. This is why Malfurion is referred to as the first mortal druid. The yaungol could thus be compared to the early humans who used crude nature magic, a primitive sort of druidism

    So yes. Malfurion is the first formally trained druid, but yaungol did it first
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  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Shal'dorei are still deeply reverent towards the Arcane, even more so than the ancient Night Elves of yore as they've literally drank the essence of Arcane energy from a Titan World-Soul and had their very beings infused with its essence. I don't think either Azshara or Elisande are really a constituent of that, as ancient Night Elven society had embraced the Arcane well before the coming of Azshara. I don't think either the loss of Elisande nor the miracle of the Arcan'dor are going to change the society of the Nightborne effectively overnight, if at all.
    No, but we are not talking about the whole society needing to shift to druidsm, you can have durids through the botanists and others, ljust like you can have monks, you dn't need a societal transformation like the Darnassians had because of the sundering and the need at that point nto to use the arcane. It is quite possible to have a few wielding druidic magics like the kaldorei did in the earlier pre-sundering ages alongside a heavier arcane wielding society. It is not like druidsm and the arcane are exclusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Which I would say is a different argument and/or topic as opposed to the Nightborne's lack of Druidism. Thalyssra and her Nightfallen rebellion saw the need for outside help and aid beyond what they could provide for themselves, overcoming a degree of xenophobia to embrace the world once more. That's well and good on their parts, but doesn't really address that they are products of a society that has promoted the ascendancy of the Arcane for 10,000+ years. They're not going to change their stripes so completely, even if they have evolved somewhat following the close shave with the Legion and the Felborne.
    And yet they do, emphatically throwing off the shackles of stagnancy joining the alliance would (presumably that statement refers to accepting the Kaldorei and their highborne group perpetuating the same ol state the nightborne have been for 10k years). The leader expresses an enthusiasm for change and embracing new ideals and ways, a spirit of discovery and adventure.

    The existence of the monk class, more removed to the nightborne than the druid class is a direct evidence of this. How can you say, even after arguing over the degree of possible change, that this isn't likely or possible, when we have monks and soon to have death knights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    One could say the same of Shamanism, another route to power that the Nightborne eschew. The Nightborne may indeed show an interest in Druidism in time, though it's highly likely they'll look at it through the lens of the Arcane as opposed to embracing Druidism in its entirety. The Arcan'dor itself is something of a union of the two philosophies - a tenuous and delicate balance of Nature and Arcane. I would have little to no doubt that the Nightborne would emphasize the Arcane side of the equation in the general sense, with a tipping of the proverbial hat to the Nature side without much in the way of exploring it.
    in time, yes, but can't ignore they have a racial disposition to druidsm over shamanism, and have already interacted, being saved/helped directly by druidsm and have demonstrated aptitude visibly for it through their botanists, Druidsm is a more likely prospect than both Shamanism and Monk.

    The arcan'dor only lends to this possibility, it doesn't detract from it. Look at the balance druids and what the core of druidsm is about, it matches with the stories of highborne and moonguard becoming druids during the ban, explains the arcane influence in druidsm, and the heart of balance being the balance of the arcane and nature, all this makes druidsm even easier to adopt for the nightborne, not less.

    And it is fine for the nightborne to emphasize the arcane side of the equation even in the class scenario, afterall arcane use isn't banned any longer it's drawbacks understood and it augments nature, now druids strengthening nature by more use of the arcane would be welcome especially since nature alone was inadequate and made druids powerless against the nightmare, an arcane strengthening would be welcome as well as more knowledge and exploration even on the druidc level before you talk of the general sense on a societal level.

    However again, let me say, the society doesn't have to change for druids to be possible. I don't see worgen, troll or zandalari or even Kul'tiran societies becoming more druidic because they have a sect of druids. Wasn't it the same for the Tauren too, when Hammul was the first and druidsm wasn't embraced at first by the Mulgore tauren, and even now, still remains a small sect of that shamanistic society?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And perhaps they do, to a much lesser degree. It would explain such individuals like High Botanist Tel'arn in the Nighthold raid, who seems to be a Druid in many ways, combined with Arcane abilities. Though this might also be under the file of exceptions that prove the general rule.
    I think it is, and can also be the basis for a druidc class or at least one of the things that make the class easier to accept in a nightborne society. Especially than say the likes of Monks or Death knights or new warlocks even. And even if they do to a lesser degree, as I explained to the guy above, a sect doesn't have to be widely accepted or even revered to exist, but it can exist, and in this case I don't see a problem with druidsm existing either as a revered sect (because of the Arcan'dor and the exploits of druidsm over the last 10k years) or as slightly more pariah oh.."just the gardener" (as Khadgar remarked) kind viewing by some of the nightborne elite. Nightborne society is both elites (which I believe are the nightborne highborne) and non elites like those in the west side and vineyards like Margeaux and the innkeeper etc. And I think those status symbols are being challenged, but I am fine with accepting only smaller shifts rather than wholesale shifts, afterall, this was not the sundering or the exile which had more drastic effects on the night elves that went through them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It would require time, a lot more time than has currently passed, before Nightborne Druids became so regular a part of Shal'dorei society. I won't argue the potential is there, but right now in my view, the potential is all that's there.
    That is possible (i.e. it could be), but not necessarily either, a lot of time might need to pass, or maybe not. Furthermore, remember you don't need nightborne druids to become a regular part of shal'dorei society for the druid class to exist amongst them. I hardly think the monks are a regular part of their society, or the death knights (look at demon hunters too ), yet they are playable. And the botanists are excellent candidates for that, which I believe can be used for that purpose.

  9. #169
    Druids have forms aka art assets and resources are used for making them. Monks don't. There's the sense.

  10. #170
    Herald of the Titans Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    Druids have forms aka art assets and resources are used for making them. Monks don't. There's the sense.
    Yeah, so really not "sense".. But "Cents". Let's be real here.. I would venture to say that makes this whole thing even shittier.
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  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    Yeah, so really not "sense".. But "Cents". Let's be real here.. I would venture to say that makes this whole thing even shittier.
    Exactly, it's a clear reason too why only Elves are the current DHs and that probably won't change for a while until they dedicate resources to making new DHs in a patch/expansion. They need voice acting, new skin colours, tattoos, faces and new horns to match their head. They also need the animations to not look ridiculous or broken on them.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    These night elven druids just have met nightborne a couple months ago. They are not huge part of their culture. Tauren and Worgen(who had witches anyway) are nature-based races and they are naturally better at druidism, so they learn faster. Compare that to human mages. Trolls, at the other hand, have been worshipping wild gods long before night elves came to existence. They had theoretical background for druidism due to their loa worship and friendship with tauren.

    I agree that arcan'dor is important and interesting but nightborne need time to master new arcanic druidism. It requires inventing new way and night elves(who I doubt would help them) cannot help them much. Currently, it would make more sense to give druids to races that had more time to practise it, like Ironforge dwarves or Stormwind humans.

    But yes, after Shadowlands we can get cool new druids. I would like that.
    I like the idea of nigihtborne druids, I also think they could impreove the druid lore fromt eh night elf sector, especially the arcane relation, something which is lacking and we're seeing less of as druidsm hshifts more and more to the troll/tauren.

    But what is more likely huh, druidssm arising from a nightborne peoplew ith their level of Botanism, the influence of the Arcan'dor and a t elast a good few months with solid druids, or the monk class just poppoing up and being a possibility w ith no background or the Death knight coming?

    Personally, I'd love them to explore that area with them, and see them extending it to both blood elves and void elves. I really think Mage, Priest and Druid shoudl be the three staple caster classes of the elven races across the board. With hunter and rogue the physical classes they all have. I'm fine with demon hunters being only night/blood. Im also okay with warriors being across the board. Warlocks I think need unique lore in each group, on the night elves, I'm only willing to accept them if it's Illidari that are warlocks (i.e. the demon hunter customisation the only one available on the warlock selection), but I feel special lore is needed for locks. I think the 4 elven races should have an arcane version of shamanis elemental wielding where they do it via the arcane instead of elemental spirits.. using arcane fulcrums instead of totems (or similar adapatations) it's not shamanism but it produces similar results. But I'm fine with elves not having access to shaman at all, or DKs with the exception of void and blood elves (not the night lot m- however because of what they did in Black rook Hold and Darkshore, I am now willing to accept night elf DKs who originate from that)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    Druids have forms aka art assets and resources are used for making them. Monks don't. There's the sense.
    Agreed 100%. I suspect this is the reason. I do have a suspicion also slightly that if nightborne had gone alliance, they'd be druids for sure. So going with the blood elves may have made it easier to give them monks instead seeing it is less art work. What a shame though, it could have been exciting art work.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Agreed 100%. I suspect this is the reason. I do have a suspicion also slightly that if nightborne had gone alliance, they'd be druids for sure. So going with the blood elves may have made it easier to give them monks instead seeing it is less art work. What a shame though, it could have been exciting art work.
    They seem pretty set on allowing almost every race to be monks, so I think Nightborne monks would've happened regardless. I think it's less weird that Nightborne are Monks and much more weird that Lightforged Draenei can't be monks. They could easily be trained up after coming into contact with Pandaren teachers, like literally every other race. Goblins and Worgen too are another strange set, especially now their models have been updated.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    Exactly, it's a clear reason too why only Elves are the current DHs and that probably won't change for a while until they dedicate resources to making new DHs in a patch/expansion. They need voice acting, new skin colours, tattoos, faces and new horns to match their head. They also need the animations to not look ridiculous or broken on them.
    I also think you are right, I believe though this may have benefited night elves and blood elves, the night elf demon hunter model is superior in every way to the 6.0 night elf model, especially to the male, it has detail and attention it woudln't have gotten if demon hunters were rolled across all the races, the quality would not have been as good for the elves and it would have taken significantly more resources.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    They seem pretty set on allowing almost every race to be monks, so I think Nightborne monks would've happened regardless. I think it's less weird that Nightborne are Monks and much more weird that Lightforged Draenei can't be monks. They could easily be trained up after coming into contact with Pandaren teachers, like literally every other race. Goblins and Worgen too are another strange set, especially now their models have been updated.
    All the more reason I feel that monks were the druid substitute. They picked that as the cheaper alternative for nightborne, because like lightforged, nightborne arne't really supposed to be monks, but monks are easier to do than druids, who would require a bit of lore and ofc the form designs. High mountain are really easy, just change the horns on the Tauren model and add a few tribal feather bands. Nightbonre woudl require a new model even if it used the nighte lven faces.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I don't understand why this didn't happen. Valewalker Farodin's close and integral role with the nightborne as well as the Val'sharah druids and priest refugees who join them up, not to mention the very active Botanists who work with nature magic amongst the nightborne...


    This demonstrates both an aptitude for nature and relationships with druids who are actively help and like them. Valewalker Farodin is fond of them. Furthermore you see they have members that love nature, why aren't they druids?

    The Arcan'dor the centre of their new identity replacing the Nightwell with its dual arcane/nature composition

    How the F*** are they able to be monks before druids...?


    I don't understand...? Druidsm in wow no longer efels elven, seriously 1 out of 6 playable druids are elves. It feels more a troll/tauren thing now. I use to feel druidsm was the elven equivalent of other races shamanism, a more intellectual approach to nature full of elven softness and love for the beauty of nature.. it has that tone for it. Whiles shamanism felt more Tauren/orc/troll like - based not on love but on respect/fear for nature of w hich the lements are a major part of (just as when we think of natural sources, we think of wind, storms earthquakes, as well as trees and animals - it's all part of nature in our understanding).

    Anyway, druidsm in wow had a distinct elven feel to it that it has lost by the failure to bring it to the other elven groups. The most likely candidate were the nightborne.
    I know that your problem is less nightbornes not being able to be druids and more "why are elves not better in everything?" but ill answer: It takes years of learning, a good teacher and a connection to the emerald dream which the nightborne has none of those things.

    Also nightborne culture revolves mostly around the arcane, it will be time before the arcandor change the way they live their lives.

    Finally, the way lore is shaping these days it seems druidism is an elven thing only from the night Elf point of view. In reality this doesnt seem to be the case.
    Last edited by Piamonte; 2020-01-02 at 06:04 PM.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I don't understand why this didn't happen. Valewalker Farodin's close and integral role with the nightborne as well as the Val'sharah druids and priest refugees who join them up, not to mention the very active Botanists who work with nature magic amongst the nightborne...


    This demonstrates both an aptitude for nature and relationships with druids who are actively help and like them. Valewalker Farodin is fond of them. Furthermore you see they have members that love nature, why aren't they druids?

    The Arcan'dor the centre of their new identity replacing the Nightwell with its dual arcane/nature composition

    How the F*** are they able to be monks before druids...?


    I don't understand...? Druidsm in wow no longer efels elven, seriously 1 out of 6 playable druids are elves. It feels more a troll/tauren thing now. I use to feel druidsm was the elven equivalent of other races shamanism, a more intellectual approach to nature full of elven softness and love for the beauty of nature.. it has that tone for it. Whiles shamanism felt more Tauren/orc/troll like - based not on love but on respect/fear for nature of w hich the lements are a major part of (just as when we think of natural sources, we think of wind, storms earthquakes, as well as trees and animals - it's all part of nature in our understanding).

    Anyway, druidsm in wow had a distinct elven feel to it that it has lost by the failure to bring it to the other elven groups. The most likely candidate were the nightborne.
    Because Blizzard have realized that 90 % of the horde are playing fucking elves and that is a big mistake.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    Fat human - Can be druid. Regular human - Can't.

    Night elves - Can be druid.. No other elves get to be.

    This makes sense to people?
    Absolutely. Different cultures - different mindsets - different classes available.

  18. #178
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    --- snipped to condense ---
    I think we're talking about two distinct things - whether or not the Nightborne have Druids, period, and whether they have Druids are part of their society (e.g. a number of Druids where they should be a visible part of their society). Having Druids period is probably true, there are likely a handful Nightborne Druids, explaining where Tel'arn and the other Botanists in the Nighthold come from. Probably no more than half a dozen, all told, not to the level where they're anywhere near a visible part of Nightborne society outside their enclave. What they don't have is a Druidic aspect to their culture where it would be common to see a Nightborne Druid strolling down a garden path in the outskirts of Suramar City.

    Could this change over time? Yes, certainly. This new enterprising and accepting spirit of the Nightborne could lead more individuals to the calling of the Druid, or former Arcanists who wish to explore the mysteries of the Arcan'dor, or embrace the more rustic beliefs of their new allies among the Trolls and Tauren (not too different from the Draenei embracing Shamanism way back when). But it would take a long time before Druids in Nightborne society will be even uncommon, much less common. A long time before they might become a playable class, we'll say.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    I know that your problem is less nightbornes not being able to be druids and more "why are elves not better in everything?" but ill answer: It takes years of learning, a good teacher and a connection to the emerald dream which the nightborne has none of those things.

    Also nightborne culture revolves mostly around the arcane, it will be time before the arcandor change the way they live their lives.

    Finally, the way lore is shaping these days it seems druidism is an elven thing only from the night Elf point of view. In reality this doesnt seem to be the case.
    Could lead to nightborne being druids a little later then. Maybe you're right, maybe despite all the points I've given, it's jsut that druidsm takes more time than being monks does. They don't need time to be mages and locks, because they've ben mages since the pre-sundering days, same would be with warriors, rogues and hunters. Locks is something we see them adapt to quickly as felborne, sot hat explains t hat. I would accept that explanation from blizzard if it meant druidsm coming a little bit down the line.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Because Blizzard have realized that 90 % of the horde are playing fucking elves and that is a big mistake.
    I don't think that matters to them, if it did, nightbonre would have gone to the alliance, as well as void elves, and blood elves would have remained the snowflake elf group. AS far as they're concerned, it dodesm't matter what race on a faction you play, they're more interested in making you pick the faction. I still think they operate in that mindset and out of habit from earlier internal directives funnel the most attractive additions to the horde... think about it, the horde gets a night elven city and race, whiles when the alliance gets void elves, they get refugees. Look how little backstory the void elves have compared to say nightborne or highmountain.

    Then the horde also get Zuldazar/Zandalar anohter majestiic wonder giving them both the best of the kaldorei and troll empire that remains, rather than stick that on the alliance.. remember the nightborne could have gone horde with Suramar staying on the alliance, they coudl even have had some nightborne revert to their original night elven form after the arcan'dor, but instead decided to give the horde all of it. ANd all of Zuldazar. Look at the prestige with which the Zandalari are rolled out, the racials, the class combos, remember how the alliance had to complain for Kul'tirans to get mages. Now look at Vulpera compared to Mechagnomes in terms of popularity and diversity. The alliance fans who cared wanted higih elves, whiles some did find void elves cool they couldn't bear to interfere with the horde's most popular race..

    All this are indications that still today, the directive is to keep the horde more attractive so you can play rather tahn necessarily having 90% of the horde playing elves as a mistake. Even those who whine at Sylvanas story and hate Garrosh repeat that BFA appeared to give fail to realise that same as in Cata/MoP, the horde and it's activities are still the centre of the major plots, because blizzard still have the horde centric directive, and this is why the horde gets the focus.

    The sad thing for a horde fan is because blizzards writing fluctuates from brilliance to outright silly/stupid, having the main focus doesn't necessariy equate in having the best or most enjoying/fulfilling storyline, however it does mean you have the most engaging, focused story where you're the main start of the story overall.

    Take it or leave it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think we're talking about two distinct things - whether or not the Nightborne have Druids, period, and whether they have Druids are part of their society (e.g. a number of Druids where they should be a visible part of their society). Having Druids period is probably true, there are likely a handful Nightborne Druids, explaining where Tel'arn and the other Botanists in the Nighthold come from. Probably no more than half a dozen, all told, not to the level where they're anywhere near a visible part of Nightborne society outside their enclave. What they don't have is a Druidic aspect to their culture where it would be common to see a Nightborne Druid strolling down a garden path in the outskirts of Suramar City.

    Could this change over time? Yes, certainly. This new enterprising and accepting spirit of the Nightborne could lead more individuals to the calling of the Druid, or former Arcanists who wish to explore the mysteries of the Arcan'dor, or embrace the more rustic beliefs of their new allies among the Trolls and Tauren (not too different from the Draenei embracing Shamanism way back when). But it would take a long time before Druids in Nightborne society will be even uncommon, much less common. A long time before they might become a playable class, we'll say.
    We were discussing both, but they overlap. The focus was in the candidacy of the race to have the druid as a playable option. Howeve ryour assessment of the two scenarios above (nightborne having druids or druids being part of their society) is fairly correct in the light of the game's failure to give a playable option to the class amongst that race.

    I do accept that in time this is very much a possibility, however when we will see this is unknown, blizzard some time take years to update a race, and when they do, they don't exactly fill in how the missing time went meanign new changes coudl have started immediately after we last looked closely at that race (i.e. their expansion or itnroduction) or at the moment the new lore begins. We have to wait and see.

    What I hope is that blizzard would hurry up and give htis option to nightbonre, I would very much like them to have it, as well as blood elves and void elves (blood elves getting in via the nightborne, void elves getting it via working with the druids to protect the emerald dream from void invasion - as a new collaboration aiming at bolstering and strengthening their abiilty to fight void and nightmare corruption.)

    As I have mentioned to us, I have for a while now felt that the Mage, Priest and Druid should be the 3 elven magic class staples amongst the elves, they should be failry common too, even if it may take special group (like the Darnassians Highborne - amongst whom mage practice is of the highest level and quite prevalent even if the group itself is on the smaller side of the overall race which is questionable post WoT), either way they would be common and generally accepted. Warlock the 4th magic class should be even more unique/rare amongst the elves and require special lore for every groups warlock class given it's nature. Druidsm I feel quite elven and a basis for it to be more common because of the elves love for nature which we see across the board, both in Quel'thalas for all Thalassians, and in the Night elven races (kaldorei and shal'dorei), warlock is more seclusive I feel, and should have lore explaining each races availability. Night elves have a place for warlocks being playable through the Illidari, you don't need a huge lore event to have the Warlock tab for the night elves be the same as the demon hunters allowing only the Illidari customisation to be available, that would easily explain night elf warlock players if they are all Illidari. Nightborne still need some explanation, as do void elves, and even blood elves is a bit fuzzy too - given how the races look on demon handling, as elves, it takes some level of explanation for why they have this class. But I have no problem with them having this class available to them.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Could lead to nightborne being druids a little later then. Maybe you're right, maybe despite all the points I've given, it's jsut that druidsm takes more time than being monks does. They don't need time to be mages and locks, because they've ben mages since the pre-sundering days, same would be with warriors, rogues and hunters. Locks is something we see them adapt to quickly as felborne, sot hat explains t hat. I would accept that explanation from blizzard if it meant druidsm coming a little bit down the line.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I don't think that matters to them, if it did, nightbonre would have gone to the alliance, as well as void elves, and blood elves would have remained the snowflake elf group. AS far as they're concerned, it dodesm't matter what race on a faction you play, they're more interested in making you pick the faction. I still think they operate in that mindset and out of habit from earlier internal directives funnel the most attractive additions to the horde... think about it, the horde gets a night elven city and race, whiles when the alliance gets void elves, they get refugees. Look how little backstory the void elves have compared to say nightborne or highmountain.

    Then the horde also get Zuldazar/Zandalar anohter majestiic wonder giving them both the best of the kaldorei and troll empire that remains, rather than stick that on the alliance.. remember the nightborne could have gone horde with Suramar staying on the alliance, they coudl even have had some nightborne revert to their original night elven form after the arcan'dor, but instead decided to give the horde all of it. ANd all of Zuldazar. Look at the prestige with which the Zandalari are rolled out, the racials, the class combos, remember how the alliance had to complain for Kul'tirans to get mages. Now look at Vulpera compared to Mechagnomes in terms of popularity and diversity. The alliance fans who cared wanted higih elves, whiles some did find void elves cool they couldn't bear to interfere with the horde's most popular race..

    All this are indications that still today, the directive is to keep the horde more attractive so you can play rather tahn necessarily having 90% of the horde playing elves as a mistake. Even those who whine at Sylvanas story and hate Garrosh repeat that BFA appeared to give fail to realise that same as in Cata/MoP, the horde and it's activities are still the centre of the major plots, because blizzard still have the horde centric directive, and this is why the horde gets the focus.

    The sad thing for a horde fan is because blizzards writing fluctuates from brilliance to outright silly/stupid, having the main focus doesn't necessariy equate in having the best or most enjoying/fulfilling storyline, however it does mean you have the most engaging, focused story where you're the main start of the story overall.

    Take it or leave it.

    - - - Updated - - -


    We were discussing both, but they overlap. The focus was in the candidacy of the race to have the druid as a playable option. Howeve ryour assessment of the two scenarios above (nightborne having druids or druids being part of their society) is fairly correct in the light of the game's failure to give a playable option to the class amongst that race.

    I do accept that in time this is very much a possibility, however when we will see this is unknown, blizzard some time take years to update a race, and when they do, they don't exactly fill in how the missing time went meanign new changes coudl have started immediately after we last looked closely at that race (i.e. their expansion or itnroduction) or at the moment the new lore begins. We have to wait and see.

    What I hope is that blizzard would hurry up and give htis option to nightbonre, I would very much like them to have it, as well as blood elves and void elves (blood elves getting in via the nightborne, void elves getting it via working with the druids to protect the emerald dream from void invasion - as a new collaboration aiming at bolstering and strengthening their abiilty to fight void and nightmare corruption.)

    As I have mentioned to us, I have for a while now felt that the Mage, Priest and Druid should be the 3 elven magic class staples amongst the elves, they should be failry common too, even if it may take special group (like the Darnassians Highborne - amongst whom mage practice is of the highest level and quite prevalent even if the group itself is on the smaller side of the overall race which is questionable post WoT), either way they would be common and generally accepted. Warlock the 4th magic class should be even more unique/rare amongst the elves and require special lore for every groups warlock class given it's nature. Druidsm I feel quite elven and a basis for it to be more common because of the elves love for nature which we see across the board, both in Quel'thalas for all Thalassians, and in the Night elven races (kaldorei and shal'dorei), warlock is more seclusive I feel, and should have lore explaining each races availability. Night elves have a place for warlocks being playable through the Illidari, you don't need a huge lore event to have the Warlock tab for the night elves be the same as the demon hunters allowing only the Illidari customisation to be available, that would easily explain night elf warlock players if they are all Illidari. Nightborne still need some explanation, as do void elves, and even blood elves is a bit fuzzy too - given how the races look on demon handling, as elves, it takes some level of explanation for why they have this class. But I have no problem with them having this class available to them.
    Whatever.. the horde need to be purged of all the stinking elves.

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