Please tell me how Nightborne being monks before druids makes sense?

[Syegfryed]

monks use magic, warriors don't

what magic do monks use at lv 1 again?

thats why they can start as monks, is not a big deal with a teacher, and pandarens did that literally to all races in mop, with the exception of worgens and goblins because a zone locked in time.

and just because its "magic" don't mean its harder, the training to gain abilities in both cases would be equally harder

[Shakana]

My point is using the fact that druidism is a night elf thing and that nightborne are the old highborne is a poor argument since the night elves didn't really take up more wide spread teaching of druidism until post sundering. Malfurion being among the first to spread it among them and not doing so until events of the war of teh ancients transpired.




That's all fine and dandy. But the nightborne are largely an example of sequestered arcanists practicing the arcane and how arcane magic works and that appears to be largely present at all levels of society that we see once we show up... main exceptions being demonic overlords and subjugation via fel


A singular npc is not a very good indicator for the general public.


As I am sure I've stated many times on these forums... I believe the mechanical schools we see in game are not indicative of the functional schools of lore and the various devs and writers have done a very poor job mixing them. I have always believed druids were originally not intended to be using "arcane" in the same vein as what "Arcane Blast" and "Arcane Explosion" are but rather that making druids only use one school in the original launch and how interrupts worked would have been beyond retarded. I'd also argue the singular examples of "botanist" casters among the blood elves and nightborne (yes there is a singular named botanist among the bosses of... well no surprise "The Botanica" as well as numerous unnamed npc's among Kael's forces) are arcanists who dedicated to experiments on plants. The plant basis doesn't make them druids because they turned to plant bending any more than a rogue taking to swords makes them a warrior.


Ah it seems you missed the Botanica... those botanists were more 'druid' than the parasite spewing thing in the nighthold.

I have to say when people quote me one by one i get lazy to read, but i did it, and now, i dont know what to say first. lol let's try:.... Alright, i'm not that keen in typing that much xD i can say i read yours, it's a progress! Let's drink a beer and we can talk about all that ;p

[Syegfryed]

You don't think the Zandalari would go out of their way to learn and incorporate a fighting style that defeated a powerful ally of theirs in the past?

they would probably be to prideful to learn that kind of enemy technique

[ravenmoon]

they rly have to, not the "lifestyle of night elves" but their own druidic lyfestyles
e

I think you only need a group of people willing to dedicate themselves to it, and the botanist of Suramar gardens have that more than the highmountain tauren have in all their quest chains and interactions.

[Psykho]

He was the only one in the sense he "looks and acts like a druid" all the others can be chalked up at being just mage herbalists.

Well yes I'll admit the spells used by the hostile version of the mob do point more mage then druid, though it could be compared to the Harvest-witches(who are ironically closer to real life druids) who were at most capable of increasing crop output and perhaps shapeshifting as Greymane was reminded of a Harvest witch when he saw a Night Elf Druid transform from a bird, not true Druids, but have the potential to learn true druidism

[Shakana]

The nightborne... like most other elves were already attached to an arcane source before the sundering. The loss of that source or being cut off from it is what seemed to be what pushed them to seeking other sources of mana. EVERY elven society has adopted something to fill this void and it has been part of what causes their various splits or deviations in 'evolution'. There's only one exception to this rule in the form of the Shendralar who somehow took of demonic energy starting sometime after the sundering (something in the area of 15k-12k years before year 0) and continuing on until roughly year 25~.

They (Nightborne) didn't turn on night elves and get addicted. They were addicted to their substitute "Well of Eternity" option created while stuck in their barrier before they even knew of the existence of the night elves of the broken isles of the world beyond.


Jesus... I get you want elven druids in the horde but god damn pay attention to the lore.

I'm not saying how they got addicted or that had influence, i'm saying that they always have to put elves on horde that are 1.traitors to the alliance 2.junkies.

[ravenmoon]

for that to happen then druids should exist also in every race, "nightbornes "deserving" druids would only make sense if other races also get the class

until they do not remove the class barrier i will be totally against of that



they rly have to, not the "lifestyle of night elves" but their own druidic lyfestyles


they don't seem to be "nature love" neither have "nature padtitute", just the gardener it seems, and what druidic teacher? night elves? why they would even teach the enemy?

Farodin? Who's been with them? Also if somehow joining the horde suddenly makes Farodin an enemy or the neutral vals'rharh night elves who ehelped them enemies, they have the Taruen , highmountain, trolls also there to teach them.

in other hand taurens and trolls of the horde could teach horde races like orcs, night elves could teach races like draeneis,t wo races who make way more sense tob e druid than some Arcane base elves with an arcane based society with little to nothing based on nature magic

Night elves are arcane elves. NIghtborne are an arcane wielding night elven society, whereas that isn't the case for most of the Darnassians. But by their very creation, night elves are warcrafts arcane elves, and this is emphasized most in the nightborne but isn't exclusive to that race.

We will always have trouble when we use terms like that, because they aren't officially Warcraft terms, just fan terms, that mean different things from one fan to another. When you say "arcane" elves, you probably mean arcane wielding elves, when I say "arcane" elves, I mean elves made from the arcane directly. (wielding it or not wielding

[Syegfryed]

Anyone can be a warrior, it's the one class anyone can be (arguably hunters as well) - every other class requires a level magical ability, even monks - makes it harder to be one in that sense

anyone can be monks, hunters, mages, and most of the other races at 1 lv, 1 lv is not a big deal, to grow and be a hero, is hard

anyone can be a grunt, or a mere hunter, what make us different than the npcs and normal people is just that

[mickybrighteyes]

I'm not saying how they got addicted or that had influence, i'm saying that they always have to put elves on horde that are 1.traitors to the alliance 2.junkies.

Well first off... neither blood elves or nightborne are traitors to the alliance. and secondly... the nightborne aren't Junkies as of the conclusion of their story arc prior to recruitment.


I knitpick these sorts of details largely cause a certain poster has a certain inclination towards mixing up key lore details concerning elves.

AS to why neither are traitors to the alliance. Nightborne had never been interacting with or entering into any deals or association with the "Alliance" as an official entity. Nothing to betray since they never joined. The blood elves were left high and dry and condemned. The only way they were made traitors is because they survived to spite the Grand Marshall leading them. They didn't turn on the alliance or seek retribution at all until roped into the horde during the events of TBC years later. You can call the blood elves traitors if you like, Garithos did label them as such... but it's so traitorous how those 'traitors' survived when they were condemned to die

[Shakana]

Well first off... neither blood elves or nightborne are traitors to the alliance. and secondly... the nightborne aren't Junkies as of the conclusion of their story arc prior to recruitment.


I knitpick these sorts of details largely cause a certain poster has a certain inclination towards mixing up key lore details concerning elves.

AS to why neither are traitors to the alliance. Nightborne had never been interacting with or entering into any deals or association with the "Alliance" as an official entity. Nothing to betray since they never joined. The blood elves were left high and dry and condemned. The only way they were made traitors is because they survived to spite the Grand Marshall leading them. They didn't turn on the alliance or seek retribution at all until roped into the horde during the events of TBC years later. You can call the blood elves traitors if you like, Garithos did label them as such... but it's so traitorous how those 'traitors' survived when they were condemned to die

You know perfectly they are traitors, even Lor'themar admits himself he betrayed the high elves = alliance. Also if we start enter on blood elves, high elves, so on, better join the High Elf discussion. And alliance vs horde High elves.

My point is that we always get the corrupted, not being able to be pure druidism practitioners. Makes me annoyed since i love the horde and i love night elves and i love druidism but i can't stand be on alliance for that same reason, only because of night elves.

Horde has been my "home" since wotlk.

[mickybrighteyes]

Anyone can be a warrior, it's the one class anyone can be (arguably hunters as well) - every other class requires a level magical ability, even monks - makes it harder to be one in that sense

I think it's sort of a wash when you start breaking down the classes... not a single class in the current fnatasy setting is mundane.

Rogues touch upon void magic, hunters dabble in nature magic, monks have life and some sort of summoning magic... warriors are weird in the post legion business with their titan related powers....

honestly... a school of magic and wizardry for all races makes a lot of sense in a world where literally anyone can learn to 'fly' (monk skill)

[Syegfryed]

Farodin? Who's been with them? Also if somehow joining the horde suddenly makes Farodin an enemy or the neutral vals'rharh night elves who ehelped them enemies, they have the Taruen , highmountain, trolls also there to teach them.

he is not even a druid himself rofl, as far the wiki says he is aprt of a group of "proto-druids", how can he teach someone? why they would even want that?

they have the Taruen , highmountain, trolls also there to teach them.

nop, nonsense. the tauren of highmountain have little to nothing in relationship with then, neither the trolls, to teach then it would mean to teach every other horde race learn that elves are not special in any case, and should not get more than other races just because people have a hardon for then

Night elves are arcane elves.

they were trolls twisted by the arcane, but do not use arcane magic, but their entire society is revolved around nature and druidism, so yeah nature elves for me, ithe semantics here are not rly the point

NIghtborne are an arcane wielding night elven society,

they are night elves no longer

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I think you only need a group of people willing to dedicate themselves to it, and the botanist of Suramar gardens have that more than the highmountain tauren have in all their quest chains and interactions.

having a group of dozen garndeners playing with arcane magic witht he plants ir not what you need to "dedicate yourself in the druidic ways"

[mickybrighteyes]

You know perfectly they are traitors, even Lor'themar admits himself he betrayed the high elves = alliance.

citation please.

Again. The blood elves were the ones condemned to die and thrown into the Violet hold to await execution for the crime of returning from a suicide mission they had help with. What's more their fence sitting had night elf and alliance spies taking actions against Quel'thalas before they'd even made any diplomatic moves to join anyone else.

At what point is it simply common sense to act in ones own interest when other parties already turned on you?

[Shakana]

citation please.

Again. The blood elves were the ones condemned to die and thrown into the Violet hold to await execution for the crime of returning from a suicide mission they had help with. What's more their fence sitting had night elf and alliance spies taking actions against Quel'thalas before they'd even made any diplomatic moves to join anyone else.

At what point is it simply common sense to act in ones own interest when other parties already turned on you?

You said to pay attention to the lore, here's my own "citation": Lor'themar was the one that exiled the High Elves. He is seen as a traitor for them.
You saying that if you got kicked in the ass of your own house you wouldn't feel betrayed? So much he is a betrayer to them, that high elves plotted against blood elves in Dalaran by murdering them.

High elves stayed with the alliance on the second war = Silver covenant, which are fine with him. Or stopped caring.

Those who got exiled hate him to the core because they didn't stay with the alliance but instead they got exiled for refusing draining magic. Quel'Danil High Elves too.

But with all honesty and due respect i'm not up to talk about high elves, i have done it enough on the High Elf official thread discussion. This is a thread about nightbornes being druids, not politics and high elves all over again. P.S. - you have there 700+ pages all about this. Which some i even provided the information and showed quotes and sites where i explain this here.

[ravenmoon]

he is not even a druid himself rofl, as far the wiki says he is aprt of a group of "proto-druids", how can he teach someone? why they would even want that?

He is a druid now, when they started off, he was a proto druid, cos the druid class did not exist then, the valewalkers started way back then. He has been a druid for a very long time

[Syegfryed]

He is a druid now, when they started off, he was a proto druid, cos the druid class did not exist then, the valewalkers started way back then. He has been a druid for a very long time

there is nothing implying he is a defacto druid either, regardless don't mean he will teach then, he only help then with the tree

again, for him tot each an high arcane based civilization would be the same thing as taurens teaching goblins to be druids

[ravenmoon]

they are night elves no longer

I talked about what the Suramar society was, not specifically going into what we classify the nightborne themselves as, that's another conversation though. Nightborne society is kaldorei pre-sundering society at least up to the end of the Nighthold raid. Now they've joined the horde they can become something apart from their Kaldorei roots and lifestyle. I know it's hard for people to see this, because when you say kaldorei they almost always think of forests, druidsm and sometimes Elune, not realising pre-sundering KAldorei is also fully kaldorei.

Thalyssra talks of joining the horde and mentioning staying in the alliance her people will not suffer such stagnation ever again, I think she is referring to continuing in the ancient Kaldorei tradition Suramar has been stagnating under for 10k years (even though they advanced, quests show us that it was slow and prolonged) I can imagine the energy and drive of the blood elves must have felt re-invograting and refreshing whereas the kaldorei and highborne would have been viewed as pretty much the same ol. It is technically not true, but everyone is entitled to their views. I feel pursuing druidsm and catching up on Elune studies would have re-invograted their society, the Darnassian Kaldorei themselves had also changed a lot, and were moving with the times, but she never cared to find that out.

However that is part ot he narrative and it's what the developers wrote for her, we can discuss the ill merits of that, but that is the choice they made, and at the end of it, so was the choice not to make them druids. doesn't eman we can't discuss it. Many of these decisions don't come after thorough lore consideration or obsessing over elves, most of the times they make a quick decision and move on, we are the ones that usually should provide them with vital stuff they miss.

It's happened many a times tha the community has reminded them or corrected them on something and they've taken on board, seen and changed. The problem is, unless the thing causes a lot of noise, they usually don't notice it.

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there is nothing implying he is a defacto druid either, regardless don't mean he will teach then, he only help then with the tree

again, for him tot each an high arcane based civilization would be the same thing as taurens teaching goblins to be druids

But there is nothing to suggest that he isn't now, and he operates and beahves like a druid, it isn't unreasonable to go with that assumption as an individual living in a land that is so close too and connected with druidsm in a forest nearby. I don't think a proto druid would have remained a proto druid after Malfurion and Cenarius …. in case like this, you should only doubt that he isn't a druid if direct evidence says otherwise because he behaves, acts as one and his background story makes it so obvious that it shouldn't need stating directly.

[Ielenia]

Well yes I'll admit the spells used by the hostile version of the mob do point more mage then druid, though it could be compared to the Harvest-witches(who are ironically closer to real life druids) who were at most capable of increasing crop output and perhaps shapeshifting as Greymane was reminded of a Harvest witch when he saw a Night Elf Druid transform from a bird, not true Druids, but have the potential to learn true druidism

I don't know if this is canon or not, this is just my interpretation, but I think the Gilnean 'harvest witches' are not actual druids, they just have some nature powers, and just exist to justify your non-worgen-fied Worgen alt a "trainer" to have druid powers, like a warrior trainer would teach their pupil the art of fighting before said pupil joins the church to become a paladin.

I think it's the curse itself and the connection to Goldrinn that gives the Gilneans the connection to druidism and its magic they need to become actual druids.

[Resentless]

its easy, they dont need new art assets to make them a monk, they do for druid

Sadly, it is literally this. Monks dont even fit half the races they are given to, but its a good class to get tank/dps/healer roles available.

[Shakana]

I don't know if this is canon or not, this is just my interpretation, but I think the Gilnean 'harvest witches' are not actual druids, they just have some nature powers, and just exist to justify your non-worgen-fied Worgen alt a "trainer" to have druid powers, like a warrior trainer would teach their pupil the art of fighting before said pupil joins the church to become a paladin.

I think it's the curse itself and the connection to Goldrinn that gives the Gilneans the connection to druidism and its magic they need to become actual druids.

Ye they are like pagan culture. Then they got teached by night elves later.