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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you feel different because you and many, grow accustomed with the night elf/tauren kind and concept of druidism and that is not rly the only way of druidism, like there is not just one way of warriors, one way of shamans, one faith of paladins.

    Druids in history, if you go for the base, like the Celtic pagan ones, are like priests and more akin to shamans, they match rly well the horde races with their tribal and spiritual ways.

    in the game, Trolls druids go more for the savagery of nature, the call of the wild, and nature is not always love and veganism, it reflects their lives in the jungle, it is brute and nasty

    Kul'tirans in other hand go more for the end aspect of the life/nature, the death aspect, but still life

    those concepts are well spread and explained in games like D&D, its rly good to expand our minds about different kind of approach within the same class, there is the druids of the spores, something could go rly well in a wow setting

    like a paladin can worship the light itself(humans) a Naa'ru(Draenei) or a Loa(trolls), different approach of the same thing




    to be fair, horde remains with just 2 druids, trolls and taurens, if you put a different horn in the cat/bear will not make much difference, only the zandalari could be said to be rly different with the new forms, and will be 3 x 3 druids, still the same.

    even if there is difference in the numbers, there is not "disadvantage" since there are more mages in the alliance by example, more paladins, etc, not everything is rly mirrored
    Looking from that angle that's also true for paladins. The balance doesn't really resides there.

    I'm seeing every angle of classes/races for a more simple self-explanatory reason for some having certain classes and others don't.
    Jeez i'm so sleepy. I might type more later xD

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    1. Nice response a d post. I agree with it. Trolls do have a much stronger shaman voodoo vibe lending to shaman, priest, warlock as their main classes and unique versions of it.

    -SNIP-
    And yes I strongly suspect nightborne not being druids is because they are on the horde, and they favoured Highmountain for it above them, and the class imbalance would have been too much.

    2. I would have made void elf druids and written new lore to explain them centred around d druids and void elves working together to understand the void threat to the emerald dream leading some void elves to explore nature magic applications and interaction with void, - void elves seem heavily based on research classes exploring the void in various fields. Since void elf is a race not a class. As such, it is plausible that if you approach it from that emphasis, nature is also one of the chief areas of study along with arcane, light/void priestly stuff, even death etc, applications for stealth (rogue), hunting (hi ter) and enhanced physical combat (warrior) are all facet of study in how to maximise this to aid Azeroth. Helping nature and protecting the Emerald dream is one of the biggest and obvious things to work on, and is right up their street.

    -SNIP-
    1. Ye they do
    2. Everything that is related to void is hard to tell when messing with other energies. I know it's just a race but they are still tainted with void and void is really dangerous touching other energies. That's why i'm not sure. I think i will never agree with void elves druids and demon hunters.

  2. #242
    Stood in the Fire ironik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    I cry laughing when i see a undead monk. Roflll

    *Chi torpedo* Bones jump everywhere.
    Best comment yet. +10 internets!

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by ironik View Post
    Best comment yet. +10 internets!
    Ahahahaha gracias! xD
    Should have special effects for undeads

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    It's just what i said. Overtime it could happen. There's too many things Nightborne failed to be part of, and have been in "ignorance" only due to the fact they simply couldn't regardless. I think Nightbornes with time will choose what they want. Maybe blizzard will give them later druids. We don't know the future.
    It's my hope that they do. The groundwork has already been laid in the race's presentation in Suramar today through their 7.0 quests with Farodin, the Arcan'dor, night eyes, the Val'sharah refugees setting up moonwells and joining the Nightfallen rebellion and through the nighthold botanists, gardens, zoo and hunters (including the ones that served the legion).. it shows nature is vrery much part of this race, though not as culturally strong and ominant as it is in the kaldorei Darnassians, but it is merely a different type of kaldorei society, one where arcane is dominant, and nature while present isn't

    to me this is acceptable as a distinguishing factor from Darnassian culture that has nature dominant, and arcane minor. however its importance is great, as it really brings Kaldorei culture to the horde. Druidsm and Elunism being part of the nightborne is very important to distinguish them uniquely in identity from the blood elves, especially since nature is so visibly a part of nightborne presentation (even though it's minor compared to arcane) and the priesthood of elune is historically a major part of surmar that wasn't explored in Legion - which gives room for nightborne growth.

    When you're developing the race forward, how are you going to do it? Ignore the kaldorei origins and nature of the nightborne ? what does that leave? It leaves them no different from the blood elves and it doesn't make them culturally distinct enough, despite their cultural differences. You want night elves on the horde, because this is what's more interesting than a blood elf copy/paste, and the way they are set up in the vein of the pre-sundering kaldorei culture with arcane major and druidsm minor, and a priestly role that can develop is what you wanna do to develop them.

    Now should you visibly develop nightborne society in the future, will save you time developing the Darnassian highborne society, because once you've introduced an arcane major nighte lf based group through the nightborne that minors in druids and Elunism, you simply only need to show the highborne Darnassian counterpart without the need for much set up, as you've shown the mould via the nightborne, you can just launch straight into their story and people w ill now know how they can work via the nightborne, just like you don't need to re-explain druidsm (like you did for Zandalari and Kul'tirans) amongst the nightborne because as a night elf sub-race in contact with night elven druids, the template for druidsm amongst the night elf is already well established. You are now just advancing the lore and revealing more of balance druid lore.

    Void Elves

    In a similar way, as mentioned above about void elves, when you grow and evelop the void elves, they already bring Thalassian culture to the alliance, nwow you explore potential applications of the void study and they become defined based on their research that touches all magical fields, void elves interacting both with nature and death can actually be an exciting part of their development, as well as arcane too, because generally I dont' think people understand how void elves can do anything but wield the void, and how being a void elf touches another class. This is what blizzard needs to clarify. I think presenting them in the vein they were introduced, researching and using the void to defend Azeroth is the key that opens the door to justify and explain a druidic wing when they now search to explore void interaction with nature and death. Night elves being immortal and time not being an issue for Death knights is very important in rushing development,

    Telogrus rift can easily have time jumps that allow high elves and blood elves to spend the equivalent of several human lifetimes of research in the void, allowing us to have more void elves, but also allowing them to get fully developed and trained druids and death knights by visiting night elves and human DKs where their introduced story will show how this classes corporate with the void elves to achieve their different aims and goals - as explained above druidsm is seeking for ways to both defeat and protect the emerald dream and druids more robustly from the nightmare which greatly interests the void elves who wish to study and improve how the void can protect nature and be utilised to help nature.

    Telogrus rift in the lore could officially have a time slow effect at this very moment, which explains the sudden multiplication of many more skilled void elves than the ones in the origin story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Some months, and years ago, we wouldn't even imagine dk would have been unlocked for all races for example. While before it would sound insane to think that would happen, it did. So you never know. I will never know. No one can possibly know. Blizzard decides what they want to do.

    Now, for the most part, for more druids class on existent races, it has been quite proven that we need an expansion theme related to it. And i also don't think we will have that early or late. But maybe a "healing" "calm" expansion of sorts will come and druidism will be expanded.

    I think at this point, everything can be talked about but never certain of anything. And the lore has retcons from leftovers of old lore. We have been having 2 expansions about stuff that happened supposedly in the past. Lack of creativity or not, there's always a possibility for many things to be susceptible to change as we know it right now.
    indeed, we wouldn't have foreseen it. I'm not in anyway objecting to new class /race combinations as long as good lore to make it happen is introduced, and interesting variations are present. like kul'tiran shaman has an interesting variation in the storm Sages, as does their druidsm, same with Zandlari druidsm and their priesthood, to me this is acceptable. You find versions of classes that can work well on a race before you give them.

    e.g. Elven (night and thalassian) can achieve shaman class via an arcane version that effectively does the samet hing, thanks to the returned Moonguard/Nightborne, all the current elves regain a long abandoned wielding of the elemnts via arcane means, which is how the night elves use to do everything. We can understand this as we see the mage calss already wielding fire and frost but fia arcane means, it's easy to see an arcane based class aviailable to night elf highborne, blood elves, nightborne and void elves having an arcane version based on ancient kaldorei pre-sundering techniques that does roughly the same thing the shaman class does but with the arcane. instead of totems they use arcane fulcrums or focus points which arcane objects that store and channel arcane power. Healing is achieved through ancient order of elune knowledge the mmoonguard had developed for battle healing, and over the last 10k years, both the Duskguard (the nightborne equivalent) and the moonguard had improved this area to an advanced enough level combining infused arcane water to stimulate healing - you simply introduce llore that shows how the priesthood of elune had used the life enhancing aspect of arcane energy to boost healig, and how Moonguard had learned some of these techniques and developed their own version harnessing the properties of water.

    I mean lets be creative, because elves will never adopt tribal elemental spirit shamanism, already wielding something similar and quite powerful via the arcane. now I can accept elven shaman class under that concept.

    Night elven warlocks I can accept if they simply make them Illidari, so you don't need night elves now exploring how to be warlocks, simply make night elf warlocks use the same Illidari models used in demon hunters, and voila, easy and understandable how the class is accessible to the race, because it's the illidari night elves that are warlocks, and they start the demon hunter levelling experience, which just ahs the demon hunter class variation of Fel Lord swapped into it, which are Illidari that specialise in wielding the fel magically over melee, by default the night elven warlocks use green fire, and can glyph to normal fire if they want. (Blood elf warlock character creation will open up the illidari skins to the warlock unlike the night elf one, the blood elf has access to all the normal blood elf skins and the Illidari ones, while the night elf has only access to the demon hunter skins)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post

    1. Ye they do
    2. Everything that is related to void is hard to tell when messing with other energies. I know it's just a race but they are still tainted with void and void is really dangerous touching other energies. That's why i'm not sure. I think i will never agree with void elves druids and demon hunters.
    This is why you need to create the exceptions and the laws that govern what the void elves are doing and clarify them. They've already created the void elves on the basis of being "the first to resist the whispers" this is a new excpetion rule, they have to keep exporing. Their aim with the void elves is to have a noble good thalassian elf race on the alliance with something unique to them. Their uniqueness is actually being able to harness and apply the void without losing their sanity,and it's not a class, it's a race, so it makes sense they are the ones tha tpresent in a way of a race applying void studies to different classes (ie..e pdisciplines) to enhance studies and knowledge. the way this shows up is void elves bieing able to use that class and Entropic embrace working with that calass.. that's how it shows up in the gameplay mechanic for players to partake, but in the lore you see or rather they have to write it to show you it helping /working with nature, with death wit the arcane, rogue expects utilising it for stealth, wmelee experts (i.e. warirors) utilising it for enhancing melee combat capabilities with super powers, same with hunting.

    they have to write this race to show how it works as a race and not a class, and they already have the ingredient sfor it, because this is a scholarly race that now uses the void to protect and save it's planet by applying it to lal the various magics and fields. You really can't leave nature out as nature is a big part of the world, and the emerald dream protection is a big part of that too, this provides the excuse for this development.

    Problem with Void Elves
    Part of the big problem with void elves feeling like an arespull (outside fan frustration of htem not being high elves and being rushed without proper backstory and introduction ) is because they haven't properly visualised nor explained how they work, why they work and how they achieve what they seem to achieve, which based on what blizzard has defined the void to be, makes little sense to players.

    The onus is on blizzard to clarify and expand void elf lore to achieve wht they want it to achieve, and give players an explanation they can deal with by further defining the void. Elves withstanding the whispers of the void was unheard of before, but that's because of how they created the void to operate, so if you're slicing in an exception like this, you explain how it is possible and you do so by revealing more about both the nature of the void and the nature of elves that makes this possible and you have to show how this works in the situations that people can wrap their heads around the void elves being a race and not a class, and what this void involvement actually means.

    Currently the way telogrus rift is set up, with almost zero explanation for how void elves do any class, makes it feel like void elves are a class, not a race, and and in typical fashion we are giving access to something like void elf classes that make no sense outside being a shadow priest.

    this is on the development team entirely, I'm sure the void elves can develop a new class like the Locus walker, but you need to present them in away and explain to people how they are able to be classes and what that means, and for me, the route of research and applying it to boosting existing classes to me works.. and the route of helping nature with the void can open the door of void elves training to be druids to apply this power to protecting nature fitting the mandate of the race.

    they have to do it, they have to want to do it, and make an effort to do it, or risk it just being a joke. Which is what most people view it as. Until they do something serious with them and develop them, that's all it would remain.

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    @Shakana,
    This quote summarises it quite well

    We are able to envision nightborne druids because of how interaction with nature and night elf history with it sets the stage for this. The questline that involves the Valewalker druid Farodin and building the aracn'dor that saves the people being a balance of nature and arcane (balance druid theme visualised), as well as the incoming val'sharah druid and preist refugees coupled with the Suramar gardens and botanists lay a solid ground work for nightborne being druids being a thing we can easily visualise and expect. Now we don't see this so clearly with the blood elves who have far less references in their established lore connecting them to nature, though we can use their material already presented to create a druid class for them or once the nightborne have, extend that to them drawing elements from the Botanica and level 1-10 Eversong woods to make it possible - it is okay for it to be a minor part of the blood elves kind of like how mages are a minor part of the orcs, druidsm being larger in the nightborne is enough, even if it is still minor compared to the arcane, it can be a much bigger thing in time for the nightborne and have a spill over to the blood elf.

    The reason we see it for the nightborne is because it is being properly laid into the storyline of the race. When you do things properly and well, people can accept it. Drustvar is an entire zone that weaves in kul'tiran druidsm, so you can understand it. Any race being anything is possible, it only requires proper work put into it in a way that uses its assets or develops its lore so it doesn't feel like an asspull (whether drawing from its existing lore or creating something entirely new). Tauren sunwalkers feel like an ass pull, unlike highborne night elf mages because there is no groundwork for the former, and no build up to how a Tauren society suddenly can achieve a priesthood and paladin (with its unique non-tribal identity) in the tribal society it is based on that has no such concept nor needs one. And the lore of the sunwalkers does nothing to make us visualise this possibility, so it feels like a bad idea that doesn't work. What does sunwalking even mean? I don't know and I've been a lore nerd of sorts. Now a highborne night elf mage, no problem whatsoever, highborne is a core part of night elf lore, a huge part, and they didn't write Darnassiasn to suddenly return to wielding magic on their own, a highborne group that never stops rejoins them and starts training new darnassians and old darnassians who had been highborne and moonguard 10k years ago and are willing to pick this up. Highborne, Dire Maul, are huge parts of night elf lore, and Wolfheart is a book that has a lot of deatil on this.. so it feels a natural and acceptable race/class combo to give with that set up.

    The same applies to doing void elf druids, or void elves in total, you have to explain it and deepen it, rather than just dump it in there. Do it well and it won't feel like an asspull, but something players can see, don't do it well ala Sunwalkers and you get asspull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post



    no, they are not druids because make literally zero sense of then being druids, they don't ave any lore to be druids, they don't have individuals druids, they are not a nature centered race and they don't show any of that, you don't have to bring up nonsense excuses
    It makes sense to me, stop assuming that only things that make sense to you are all that is possible and the only things that can be visualised by others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    of course you would do that, that little bias towards elf, but it make no sense at all, if a void elf enter the emerald dream it could just spread even more shit there

    and the emerald dream is fine, there is little to no sense for then to do anything about that,and even if they work to "explore" the applications dont mean they would be druids
    Perhaps think for a change that elf bias puts me in a place to better recognise what can work for elf fans.

    Druids is my first and longest main class in wow, followed by mage, priest, hunter and demon hunter .. wonder why? So maybe a druid and elf fan is also quite justified in feeling what he feels about the things he is into the most? Funny that.

    But continue to object to us having the right to desire what we desire. Good luck.

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    P.s. @Shakana I wonder how you would explain or set up Nightborne monks... same for forsaken even though the concept seems ludicrous, can you envision how a forsaken monk can feasibly work or write a creative story for it?

    I can come up with a story how nightborne monks can become a thing. But Elves are my forte, forsaken not so much.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-05 at 07:22 AM.

  5. #245
    Warchief Notshauna's Avatar
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    Druidism is more than just nature magic and thus far seems to be exclusively the purview of races that have been taught. Cenarius taught the Night Elves, Gonk taught the trolls and Ulfar taught the humans. As for the Tauren the answer is complicated as much of Tauren history is contradictory with canon and Night Elf accounts, but the Tauren too claim to of been taught by Cenarius whereas the Night Elves claim to of taught the Tauren.

    In fact Valewalker Farodin literally isn't even a druid, he just practices a primitive form of nature magic that is the basis for Druidism, essentially he is as to druids as wagons are to cars.

  6. #246
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    It makes sense to me, stop assuming that only things that make sense to you are all that is possible and the only things that can be visualised by others.
    im not assuming, im stating a fact, they literally make zero sense to be druids, it makes sense to you because you are an elf lover and you like fanfic about it

    you said "you suspect they are not druids because they are on horde, is factually wrong, and are fruit of your daydream cause there is nto a single thing to corroborate your "suspicions"

    the fact is they are not druids because it nmake no sense, they are, like many times explained to you, an arcane society totally revolved and oriented to arcane magic and arcane practices, saying they make sense to be druids is liek saying goblins or the Natherzin make sense to be druids too " because i think they do"

    Perhaps think for a change that elf bias puts me in a place to better recognise what can work for elf fans.
    It Puts you in a place where your judgement is clouded by the elf bias, there is no impartiality, you just want everything to be related to elves, of course for you, anything can work for elves, for you, every class possible not just could but should be available for elves, because you think it makes sense.

    Druids is my first and longest main class in wow, followed by mage, priest, hunter and demon hunter .. wonder why? So maybe a druid and elf fan is also quite justified in feeling what he feels about the things he is into the most? Funny that.
    you are trying to throw the fallacy of authority at me fam? rly? just because your first and long class in wow are elves?


    But continue to object to us having the right to desire what we desire. Good luck.
    im answering wrong statements, correcting if i may say, you can ask whatever you want, just don't try to paint your fanfic as something true, or make sense, or "because lore", because it don't, i said before, to make void elves or nightborne druids would be an egregious bullshit that they may up just open the class to every race in the game, even demons, because they were just "researching the fel and nature magic"

  7. #247
    The Lightbringer DesoPL's Avatar
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    I ask where is blood elves druids? And i am serious.
    .

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    im not assuming, im stating a fact, they literally make zero sense to be druids, it makes sense to you because you are an elf lover and you like fanfic about it
    Amusing how a man gives his opinion and boldly exclaims it to be a fact, especially after it has been pointed out to him that what may not make sense to you, may do so to others.

    But you're still trying to argue that opinion is not fac which is obvious and un-necessary while at the same time calling your opinion fact, which is just double standard, and confusing. But oh well, keep insisting.


    Are you one of those people turn your nose up fan idea, framing fanfic as some sort of derogative term while at the same time passionately responding on a forum about a made up fatnasty world with lots of equally made up scenarios and situations which essentially is someone elses fanfic - yet you criticise your own fellow player humans on this forum for stating theirs In a thread made for exactly that purpose? Isn't this all a bit dis-ingenious, hypocritical and frankly arrogant of you? You've said nothing to convince me, and clearly many others that all of this makes no sense and has no reason to it, and you refuse to accept any other view point than your own.

    I'll be frank with you, I can see how you might not think this as something the lore on the nightborne support, but I have yet to be satisfied for your explanation why Nightborne can be monks but not druids based on established lore. If you had approached it like others , and said simply blizzard doesn't want it so at least for now, or are too lazy to design nightborne druid forms, or aren't doing it because that would be 5 horde druid races to 3 alliance ones, or a more honest "I don't like the idea", then at least you'd be sincere. But you are going to some lengths to bash someone elses thoughts without any logical justification. All we have is your opinion that "it makes no sense", not any real proof.. which you can't really provide because this is a work of fiction and this discussion is based on opinions that draw their inspiration from the fictional material, but nothing more.

    No one but you is arguing that any of this is fact. It's all make belief. Don't create new arguments that don't exist here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Notshauna View Post
    Druidism is more than just nature magic and thus far seems to be exclusively the purview of races that have been taught. Cenarius taught the Night Elves, Gonk taught the trolls and Ulfar taught the humans. As for the Tauren the answer is complicated as much of Tauren history is contradictory with canon and Night Elf accounts, but the Tauren too claim to of been taught by Cenarius whereas the Night Elves claim to of taught the Tauren.

    In fact Valewalker Farodin literally isn't even a druid, he just practices a primitive form of nature magic that is the basis for Druidism, essentially he is as to druids as wagons are to cars.
    Can you prove Valewalker Farodin is not a druid? Can you prove that he or one of the Val'Sharah refugees now part of Suramar cannot teach the nightborne. Can you prove that this cannot happen or isn't feasible?


    No one is suggesting nightborne teach themselves druidsm, or that their botanism is druidsm, the argument is made that nightborne druids given the story background are more feasible than monks, and a case can be made for nightborne druids, or even should be made based on that.

    But do you even need to have a historical basis for any class? Is there not precedence that at a whim any race can become any class should blizzard deem it so? Do we have to recall Tauren sunwalker priests/paladins, Orc mages, Forsaken monks, just in case the obvious nightborne monk isn't the on topic example of such.

    One fails to see how more unlikely nightborne druids are than monks, and if you agree, but accept the in game reality of nightborne monks, one wonders why druids just seem prepostrous to my fellow human Syegfryed above.

    I'm just saying. Fictional world anything can happen, and tends to, is hard to confidently and boldly state this can't happen or makes sense, without looking like an idiot for doing so.

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    @Shakana

    A Nightborne Monk Background
    Here is how I'd write it for nightborne, then likely refine it from there, I'd start with a new nightborne directtives.. they are an ancient kaldorei civilization having lived in the same culture for over 10k years, many are set in their ways, but embracing the horde, leadership is determinied to bring thier people into the present and carry new things, "not suffer stagnation ever again" is a phrase Thalyssra uses in describing why the nightborne are happier going with the horde than rejoining the night elves (highborne and Darnassian alike).

    Now its clear many nightborne don't care - their aracne civilization is more advanced than any civilization around, and has been even before the sundering, what do they need from others? Yet, it is quite clear for all their advancement, they were not able to defeat the legion, required help, and things they looked down on before actually proved quite effective...for all its supeirotiy the arcane was not enough, - history shows how effective things highborne kaldorei society ignored, that others were able to achieve, like the pariah Malfurion Stormrage who has become one of the most powerful beings on Azeroth and the chief architect of foiling both Azshara nd the legion twice.

    As such nightborne leadership commissions exploring new paths and fields of study and revisting old ones that have progressed in other cultures with admirable results, resolving to develop training to enhance the nightborne people, they feel their arcane expertise , intelligence and knowledge brought to bear on other fields would allow them to not only uncover their secrets but enhacne them beyond what those raecs have acheived .

    [This is the premise/logic behind new class exploration, intentionally tdeesigned to be consistent with the more arrogant elven mind, especialy the nightborne pre-sundering Kaldorei narcissitic attitude which while different in some individuals, is the norm standard for the race]

    The Wildswalkers are a group set up by a nightborne elite to enhance nature related fields like the monk and druid class outside the experience of the nightborne, some of the group travel to Pandaria to learn the ways of the monks and resetablish Shal'dorei ties with the Pandaren. (the night elves use to be allies with them before the sundering, and some nightborne remember this personally), he and his followes seek to learn their ways. After some training with them, he convinces their leaders to come with him to Suramar and train, they use time magic to speed up the training process quickly, allowing what seems like an incredibly quick mastering of the art. What happens, is that the intelligent perfect memory of the nightborne, take in the lessons, then when they go home, they cast time spells that allow them to practice and master, ponder and explore the new teachings, affording them massive speed in learning and training.

    This would be how the nightborne pick up and master both Death knight and Druidsm later on. Now these are taken seriously because of how powerful they are. The power of wielding death magic becomes well known amongst hte nightbonre, and they need experts in this area. The same with druidsm, druidsm saved their people, and has had phenomenal success that pre-sundering kaldorei culture overlooked but the Darnassians and Val'shalassians have shown well worth mastering (2 Legion defeats, world treees, world evolution etc). Nightborne also approach shamanism, but from an arcane point of view, who needs elemental spirits when you can use the arcan to generate fire, air, water and spirit as was done by the Moonguard for combat and battle triage in the pre-sundering era, and kept alive by the Duskguard. So they study the way s Earthern ring adapt and utilise the elemnts to learn any new techniques they don't have. Their shaman class is technically elemental arcanists, they do however have a sense of balance insteilled in them by Farodin and allows them to work with other shamman when it comes to doing anything that involves manipulating elemental forces.. despite them being arcanists technically and not shaman (but for the intents of gameplay, its the shaman class that is accessible.)
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-05 at 09:47 AM.

  9. #249
    I think it can be reduced down to.

    Night Elves deal and depend on Nature. Their withdrawal from the Arcane (before Cataclysm) allowed them to continue their Druidic ways.
    Nightborne spent thousands of years dependent on Mana and Arcane after the War of the Ancients, nearing 12,000 years currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by lore
    "The nightborne (also spelled the Nightborne)[2] or shal'dorei in the native tongue[3][4] are a powerful and mystical race of elves who live in Suramar. Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species.[5]"
    "The nightborne race owes much of its unique physical characteristics to its long dependence on the Nightwell, an ancient source of power crafted by Suramar's Highborne residents during the War of the Ancients."
    Cited from Wowwiki, with sources:
    [2] Quest: Fate of the Guard
    [3] Shal'dorei Silk
    [4] Quest: Magic Message
    [5] BlizzCon 2015 - World of Warcraft Legion - World and Content Overview

    You can't force the Druidic connection when no one continued to teach the Nightborne, individuals like Cenarius or Malfurion.
    And clearly defined parameters such as Arcane was everywhere for them, it imprisoned them and were cut off from other forms of magic in due course.

    ---

    Monks carry the same principles in this context as the Pandaren did. You had a ruling delegate, with cruelty passed down the line. You clearly played in Suramar and saw those effects, in some cases and in quests of a World Quest where you personally armed the individuals with weapons.

    If you're willing to fight in a resistance, you are also willing to do it bare-knuckled as you feel so righteous to do so. You don't need weapons to fight the oppression you're feeling but it is a gameplay mechanic so they were given them as a bonus.

    Not to mention, not all Nightborne had access to mana and Arcane. Or being able to use that magic. You are however always able to find comfort in philosophy, calm and other similar ideals relative to the Monk ethos in-game.
    And most importantly, everyone Humanoid has arms and legs... You can always kick and punch with those.


    The classes are never an exact perfect fit. Priests for Night Elves were not as they used Moonlight not Holy Light. But that is the gameplay and lore clash that has been in-game since the MMO existed.
    Last edited by Evangeliste; 2020-01-05 at 09:56 AM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeliste View Post
    I think it can be reduced down to.

    Night Elves deal and depend on Nature. Their withdrawal from the Arcane (before Cataclysm) allowed them to continue their original ways.
    Nightborne spent thousands of years dependent on Mana and Arcane after the War of the Ancients, nearing 12,000 years currently.




    You can't force the Druidic connection when no one continued to teach the Nightborne, individuals like Cenarius or Malfurion.
    And clearly defined parameters such as Arcane was everywhere for them.
    They were cut off from other forms of magic in due course.

    ---

    Monks carry the same principles in this context as the Pandaren did. You ad a ruling delegate, with cruelty passed down the line. You clearly played in Suramar and saw those effects, in some cases and in quests of a World Quest armed the individuals with weapons.

    If you're willing to fight in a resistance, you are also willing to do it bare-knuckled as you feel so righteous to do so. You don't need weapons to fight the oppression you're feeling.

    Not to mention, not all Nightborne had access to mana and Arcane. Or being able to use that magic. You are however always able to find comfort in philosophy, calm and other similar ideals relative to the Monk ethos in-game.
    And most importantly, everyone Humanoid has arms and legs... You can always kick and punch with those.


    The classes are never an exact perfect fit. Priests for Night Elves were not as they used Moonlight not Holy Light. But that is the gameplay and lore clash that has been in-game since the MMO existed.
    Although you don't really have to have pre-existing druidsm to introduce it, but in the nightborne, you can use the night elf connection, noting these are night elf individuals not a whole new generation that are still around and still bear their races nature affinity and love, which is not preposterous seeing their botanists and seeing how well the arcan'dor (a nature and arcane tree of power) serves effectively.

    The nightwell is no more, the Arcan'dor is, you wouldn't be surprised either if the arcan'dor was used as the excuse for accessing an enhanced nature power either.

    I am merely pointing out elements in the nightborne story that can be used. This is in addition to druidic Valewalker Farodin, Val'sharah druids and priests all joining in with the ni ghtborne and providing possiblities to teach that race, that has shown to have some skill and love of nature (cannot ignore the botanists).

    Now obviously blizzard hasn't used any of these to give a druid class, but can youhonestly say a monk is more likely?

    But as you say, classes are not altered to fit perfectly in wow. They are generic dicsiplines that draw from elements of lore across several races that blizzard has bothered to provide, often they are just generic fantasy tehmes imported in in many of their abilities or just invented for the gameplay and offered with no explanation or descriptive lore. Never modified to fit the lore of a race well even when appropriate, especially considering alterations can be superficial (i.e. just name and visual/special effects customising to fit the race rather than a different mechanic altogether which would be a balancing nightmare for the systems team - but they don't do it)

    It is a game afterall, not a real world. They can do this. Which is why any race class combo, including new classes are quite possible.

    The way people go on sometimes about x not being possible or not making sense, you wonder how they process new classes being created and introduced that didn't exist before. Or do they only accept them if they've been introduced into thewider story first , before making their way to the race? Yet even if this is the preferred choice/root blizzard many a times do not oblige us with explanations, and just dump it on us. Many like myself don't like when they do this, it's disappointing, it makes us feel they don't treasure their work enough and we don't like it because we've emotionally invested in their project and such treatment exposes us as being foolish for having lent so much time or even affection to something that isn't good or taken seriously enough by the developers.

    But it is a business for them now, even if it was once more than that. They own the rights and can do what they please, yet I'm wasting my life energy typing about fictional stuff , going into depths knowing full well no developer will ever read and if they did, it won't change anything.

    Acceptance is the first stage, in time my sluggish brain would accept the full truth of what it knows and will forever turn its back on Warcraft and never look back. If you don't value your work, don't expect others to.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-05 at 10:08 AM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Althougy you don't really have to have pre-existing druidsm to introduce it, but in the nightborne, you can use the nightr elf connection, noting these are night elf individuals not a whole new generation that are still around and still bear their races nature affintiy and love, which is not preposterous seeing their botanists and seeing how well the arcan'dor a natureand arcane tree of power serves.

    The nightwell is no more, the Arcan'dor is, you wouldn't be surprised either if the arcan'dor was used as the excuse for accessing an enhanced nature power either.

    i am merely pointing out elements in the nightborne story that can be used. This is in addition to druidic Valewalker Farodin, Val'sharah druids and priests all joining in with the ni ghtborne and providing possiblities to teach that race, that has shown to have some skill and love of nature (cannot ignore the botanists).

    Now obviously blizzard hasn't used any of these to give a druid class, but can youhonestly say a monk is more likely?
    In this case, and from the threads point of view yes it does. Not to mention in the Blizzard lore, you don't learn it within 5 minutes of being liberated from 12,000 years of Titanic influence just because. Malfurion took a while to learn it, other individuals of the same creed did but you're implying that it takes a lot less time than that... You know that from the liberation of Suramar to BFA is been months in their timeline?

    Legion is year 33
    BFA is year 34

    Even then, the liberation of Suramar came later on in year 33 then the invasion of Broken Shore.

    You're ignoring the timespan here. Yea, *now* the Nightwell is gone but they sat next to it for 12,000 years. The artefact that sat in it was a Pillar of Creation, its something that was used to shape the world of young Azeroth - something so strong it can physically mould the surface. Its such a strong magic, such a permeating force that it physically changed them. You know a similar thing occurred to the Dark Trolls that turned them into Night Elves in the first place by the same power source - aka Titans.

    Night Elven connection has all but faded away. From the sources I stated, including from an interview at Blizzcon... They are not Night Elves anymore. Having ancestry doesn't mean anything when it comes to magic, its not a thing ingrained into a race because they had it years ago. It is very much in the moment.

    If you recall the boss within the Gardens, he has to harness Arcane, Light and Nature to grow those Gardens. He says it himself during the boss fight.
    That's how repressed that line of magic is versus the Arcane in that area.

    Magic in WoW is about participation in it. You don't actively participate in that magic and hone your craft into it, you can't use it in the same capacity.

    In the end, your approximation seems to be like saying I have Greek heritage but born in England therefore I am entitled to to a Greek passport. Which I don't, I have to actively be a citizen of Greece to have a passport.
    Last edited by Evangeliste; 2020-01-05 at 10:23 AM.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by DesoPL View Post
    I ask where is blood elves druids? And i am serious.
    We probably don't have them because blizzard deoesn't want to take the time teo do them. Lack of understanding the lore makes people feel such a thing would be too outlandish, but you can utilise lore about them already given to make a case.. and ofc, even outlandish things can feel an integeral part of a race with the right story to present it.

    if that wasn't the case, we would have no new classes, and everyone would be stuck in exactly teh same state they were introduced.

    i think blizzard doesn't want to give more race/class combos, might be becase it's work, might be they feel it would dilute their unique feel of each race. howver there are ways you can give a few more class race combos using existing lore or creating. And if you don't want to do that, you can still introduce class playstyles to races by disguising the class in a different identity or skin. for exmample, you can disguise the druid as a Botanist when it comes to the blood elves. Just like we called Blood elf paladins Blood Knights, and Kul'tiran shamans are Tidesages not actual shaman in the sense you're use to. In a similar way, you can call blood elf druids Botanists.

    Now if blizzard were more thorough and cared more about lore, the way you would do this would be to alter some of the druid spell nams and visual effects when making them botanists, you might even disguise the shapeshifts, instead making them states rather than forms, or you could do forms like full cat form or instead a Saberon type thing - playstyle wise it's exactly the same class, i'ts just that the names of many of hte spells are different and the visual/special effects on them are.

    This is ofc upt ot blizzard, it's somethign they could have done in classic, Night elf priests were the classic example, they used arcane spells instead of the light to deal damage, and it was starlight and moonlight healing instead of yellow light, but instead they chose to turn them i nto light priests - steramlining the process but sacrificing the unique lore they had. It's possible nobody envisioned this solution back then, we are all creative beings, and just because they have a team deosn't mean they always come up with great ideas. some of you come up with excellent ideas believe you me have never entered any of htier minds, some of them are seen and taken up by blizzard, otheres are not seen at all, or are seen but not used for various reasons you or aI may not entirely understand with their whole design process and how their engine works.

    Who knows.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeliste View Post
    In this case, and from the threads point of view yes it does. Not to mention in the Blizzard lore, you don't learn it within 5 minutes of being liberated from 12,000 years of Titanic influence just because. Malfurion took a while to learn it, other individuals of the same creed did but you're implying that it takes a lot less time than that... You know that from the liberation of Suramar to BFA is been months in their timeline?

    Legion is year 33
    BFA is year 34

    Even then, the liberation of Suramar came later on in year 33 then the invasion of Broken Shore.

    You're ignoring the timespan here. Yea, *now* the Nightwell is gone but they sat next to it for 12,000 years. The artefact that sat in it was a Pillar of Creation, is something that was used to shape the world of young Azeroth - something so strong it can physically mould the surface. Its such a strong magic that was so permeating that it physically changed them. You know a similar thing occurred to the Dark Trolls that turned them into Night Elves in the first place by the same power source - aka Titans.

    Night Elven connection was all but faded away. From the sources I stated, including from an interview at Blizzcon... They are not Night Elves anymore. Having ancestry doesn't mean anything when it comes to magic, its not a thing engrained into a race because they had it years ago. It is very much in the moment.

    If you recall the boss within the Gardens, he has to harness Arcane, Light and Nature to grow those Gardens. He says it himself during the boss fight.
    Thats how repressed that line of magic is versus the Arcane in that area.

    Magic in WoW is about participation in it. You don't actively participate in that magic and hone your craft into it, you can't use it in the same capacity.

    In the end, your approximation seems to be like saying I have Greek heritage but born in England therefore I am entitled to to a Greek passport. Which I don't, I have to actively be a citizen of Greece to have a passport.
    I edited the post, your respond to further, as I noticed you quoted the first draft, please read the more detailed amended version. Thanks for the reply.


    In essence, bear in mind I am merely pointing out elments of the nigthborne story that can be used. not should be used, or will be used.. I can't ultimately make that determination on what will qualify, the devs have to, if they it is a reason then it becomes a reason, that is the bottom line. I can only go by what would be convincing enough to me, so you must bear this in mind.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    We probably don't have them because blizzard deoesn't want to take the time teo do them. Lack of understanding the lore makes people feel such a thing would be too outlandish, but you can utilise lore about them already given to make a case.. and ofc, even outlandish things can feel an integeral part of a race with the right story to present it.

    if that wasn't the case, we would have no new classes, and everyone would be stuck in exactly teh same state they were introduced.

    i think blizzard doesn't want to give more race/class combos, might be becase it's work, might be they feel it would dilute their unique feel of each race. howver there are ways you can give a few more class race combos using existing lore or creating. And if you don't want to do that, you can still introduce class playstyles to races by disguising the class in a different identity or skin. for exmample, you can disguise the druid as a Botanist when it comes to the blood elves. Just like we called Blood elf paladins Blood Knights, and Kul'tiran shamans are Tidesages not actual shaman in the sense you're use to. In a similar way, you can call blood elf druids Botanists.

    Now if blizzard were more thorough and cared more about lore, the way you would do this would be to alter some of the druid spell nams and visual effects when making them botanists, you might even disguise the shapeshifts, instead making them states rather than forms, or you could do forms like full cat form or instead a Saberon type thing - playstyle wise it's exactly the same class, i'ts just that the names of many of hte spells are different and the visual/special effects on them are.

    This is ofc upt ot blizzard, it's somethign they could have done in classic, Night elf priests were the classic example, they used arcane spells instead of the light to deal damage, and it was starlight and moonlight healing instead of yellow light, but instead they chose to turn them i nto light priests - steramlining the process but sacrificing the unique lore they had. It's possible nobody envisioned this solution back then, we are all creative beings, and just because they have a team deosn't mean they always come up with great ideas. some of you come up with excellent ideas believe you me have never entered any of htier minds, some of them are seen and taken up by blizzard, otheres are not seen at all, or are seen but not used for various reasons you or aI may not entirely understand with their whole design process and how their engine works.

    Who knows.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I edited the post, your respond to further, as I noticed you quoted the first draft, please read the more detailed amended version. Thanks for the reply.


    In essence, bear in mind I am merely pointing out elments of the nigthborne story that can be used. not should be used, or will be used.. I can't ultimately make that determination on what will qualify, the devs have to, if they it is a reason then it becomes a reason, that is the bottom line. I can only go by what would be convincing enough to me, so you must bear this in mind.
    Yeah I said my post, not gonna include the rest.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeliste View Post
    Yeah I said my post, not gonna include the rest.
    What is your avatar? A Vrykul female? A half-elf female?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    We probably don't have them because blizzard deoesn't want to take the time teo do them. Lack of understanding the lore makes people feel such a thing would be too outlandish, but you can utilise lore about them already given to make a case.. and ofc, even outlandish things can feel an integeral part of a race with the right story to present it.

    if that wasn't the case, we would have no new classes, and everyone would be stuck in exactly teh same state they were introduced.

    i think blizzard doesn't want to give more race/class combos, might be becase it's work, might be they feel it would dilute their unique feel of each race. howver there are ways you can give a few more class race combos using existing lore or creating. And if you don't want to do that, you can still introduce class playstyles to races by disguising the class in a different identity or skin. for exmample, you can disguise the druid as a Botanist when it comes to the blood elves. Just like we called Blood elf paladins Blood Knights, and Kul'tiran shamans are Tidesages not actual shaman in the sense you're use to. In a similar way, you can call blood elf druids Botanists.

    Now if blizzard were more thorough and cared more about lore, the way you would do this would be to alter some of the druid spell nams and visual effects when making them botanists, you might even disguise the shapeshifts, instead making them states rather than forms, or you could do forms like full cat form or instead a Saberon type thing - playstyle wise it's exactly the same class, i'ts just that the names of many of hte spells are different and the visual/special effects on them are.

    This is ofc upt ot blizzard, it's somethign they could have done in classic, Night elf priests were the classic example, they used arcane spells instead of the light to deal damage, and it was starlight and moonlight healing instead of yellow light, but instead they chose to turn them i nto light priests - steramlining the process but sacrificing the unique lore they had. It's possible nobody envisioned this solution back then, we are all creative beings, and just because they have a team deosn't mean they always come up with great ideas. some of you come up with excellent ideas believe you me have never entered any of htier minds, some of them are seen and taken up by blizzard, otheres are not seen at all, or are seen but not used for various reasons you or aI may not entirely understand with their whole design process and how their engine works.

    Who knows.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I edited the post, your respond to further, as I noticed you quoted the first draft, please read the more detailed amended version. Thanks for the reply.


    In essence, bear in mind I am merely pointing out elments of the nigthborne story that can be used. not should be used, or will be used.. I can't ultimately make that determination on what will qualify, the devs have to, if they it is a reason then it becomes a reason, that is the bottom line. I can only go by what would be convincing enough to me, so you must bear this in mind.
    You are the one who do not understand the lore. To be a druid, you need to have a connection to nature and a teacher.

    Nightborne and Blood elf have none. They are arcane society, live in town, have little to no interest in nature. And they have no one like Cenarius/Malfurion/ etc to teach them.

    The issue with fan (whatever they are fan about) is that it always cloud their judgment.

    And on a side note, it takes time and ressources to make a new race of druide because of the art needed for the animal form.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You are the one who do not understand the lore. To be a druid, you need to have a connection to nature and a teacher.

    Nightborne and Blood elf have none. They are arcane society, live in town, have little to no interest in nature. And they have no one like Cenarius/Malfurion/ etc to teach them.

    The issue with fan (whatever they are fan about) is that it always cloud their judgment.

    And on a side note, it takes time and ressources to make a new race of druide because of the art needed for the animal form.
    Off course specialka, I have no understanding of the lore, you are the experts I defer to, and my brain is far to weak and incapable of grasping th elore - (obvious - I can't even type properly or use words correctly in a sentence = low education and simple mind). I'm clearly one of those silly and annoying crazed fans, who obsess about things and just don't have the mental capacity to understand the things they fixate on.

    End up jumping on forums and wasting everyone's time with their pure fanfiction and lack of understanding anything that pertains to the things they are obivusly crazed and clouded over. It takes only a truly neutral, objective and rational mind that has carefully examined all the facts about topics they have no passion about to properly understand all the ins and outs, not a crazy stupid fan that's mindlessly obsessed with things he clearly knows little about.

    Nightborne cannot be druids, that's just absolutely silly. Nor can blood elves. they don't have Malfurion and Cenarius, unlike the Trolls and Kul'tirans. What useless fan fic, I know I'm just as bad as those guys in classic that said wow would get expanded, or that sub-races should be a thing, or that night elves should get mages and blizzard should open up new class combos or a whole host of other game, class and race ideas, which are obviously fanfic from stupid obsessed fans with totally clouded judgement requiring the intelligent pragmatists to bring them down to earth with sound logic and reasoning for accepting the established order and making sure they don't bring their ridiculous imagination that just confuses everything and makes absolutely no sense.


    What was I thinking, Nightborne druids? Impossible, monks are perfectly logical as you can clearly see by them being playable, druidsm amongs tthe nightborne? that's just fanfic. I see the error of my ways.

    Thank you Shan'do.


    Now with my new found clarity (which I don't understand, but my betters say so, therefore it must be true), let me confidently say that Nightborne can't be druids. Nightborne are not capable of being druids. Nightborne have no capacity to be druids. Nightborne can never be druids. Nightborne will never be druids.

  17. #257
    I guess you have some big issues on your own. Must be a hard life.

    Have a nice day.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-01-05 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I guess you have some big issues on your own. Must be a hard life.

    Have a nice day.
    Raven likes to talk a lot about this. It's not a hard life, it's passionate. When you have passion in speaking about themes that makes you interested, it's just hard to stop talking about it even when half of the world already told him many times the same thing as you did. I did, many people i saw saying it. But if there's a breach about nightborne being druids somehow, in future etc, he will take it. Because this version of nightborne you know now is from a society that was teached to be that way for years, but just like kids, they might want to be interested in other things that is not (only) arcane magic and feel quite limited, wants to explore the world, learn with ancestors, etc.

  19. #259
    Ofc, anything can be anything. Thats modern WoW for ya. Get with the program.

    Complaining about this is soo 2014.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by DesoPL View Post
    I ask where is blood elves druids? And i am serious.
    Blizzard pretends they don't exist. In Chronicle they retconned them to be mages. However, why don't we have mage-druid hybrids then? They are different from nightborne since they had over 10 years to learn druidism from tauren.
    Last edited by matrix123mko; 2020-01-05 at 01:24 PM.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

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