Please tell me how Nightborne being monks before druids makes sense?

[Darkeon]

Druids require extra model work. This isnt hard, OP. This is Activision Blizzard we are talking about.

[Almaric]

I don't understand why this didn't happen. Valewalker Farodin's close and integral role with the nightborne as well as the Val'sharah druids and priest refugees who join them up, not to mention the very active Botanists who work with nature magic amongst the nightborne...


This demonstrates both an aptitude for nature and relationships with druids who are actively help and like them. Valewalker Farodin is fond of them. Furthermore you see they have members that love nature, why aren't they druids?

The Arcan'dor the centre of their new identity replacing the Nightwell with its dual arcane/nature composition

How the F*** are they able to be monks before druids...?


I don't understand...? Druidsm in wow no longer efels elven, seriously 1 out of 6 playable druids are elves. It feels more a troll/tauren thing now. I use to feel druidsm was the elven equivalent of other races shamanism, a more intellectual approach to nature full of elven softness and love for the beauty of nature.. it has that tone for it. Whiles shamanism felt more Tauren/orc/troll like - based not on love but on respect/fear for nature of w hich the lements are a major part of (just as when we think of natural sources, we think of wind, storms earthquakes, as well as trees and animals - it's all part of nature in our understanding).

Anyway, druidsm in wow had a distinct elven feel to it that it has lost by the failure to bring it to the other elven groups. The most likely candidate were the nightborne.

Please tell me who gives a fuck...

[Syegfryed]

Amusing how a man gives his opinion and boldly exclaims it to be a fact, especially after it has been pointed out to him that what may not make sense to you, may do so to others.

amusing how you can't differentiate an opinion to a fact, a fanfic to actual real lore

this is beyond making sense to one and making to others, its simple not making sense into the game lore

But you're still trying to argue that opinion is not fac which is obvious and un-necessary while at the same time calling your opinion fact, which is just double standard, and confusing. But oh well, keep insisting.

nightborne not making sense being druid is not my opinion is a game fact, and since you can't prove otherwise only make more blatantly obvious.

Are you one of those people turn your nose up fan idea, framing fanfic as some sort of derogative term while at the same time passionately responding on a forum about a made up fatnasty world with lots of equally made up scenarios and situations which essentially is someone elses fanfic - yet you criticise your own fellow player humans on this forum for stating theirs In a thread made for exactly that purpose? Isn't this all a bit dis-ingenious, hypocritical and frankly arrogant of you?

i have no problem with fan dieas and fanfic if you know what theya re, fanfics with no sense to the actual lore, when you try to paint as "make sense because you think so" is where my problem lies

and for the second part, please drop from your high horse, your scenarios still make a s much sense as a goblin druid

You've said nothing to convince me, and clearly many others that all of this makes no sense and has no reason to it, and you refuse to accept any other view point than your own.

of course nothing will convincing you, im not trying to convince no one, im stating facts about the game lore

I'll be frank with you, I can see how you might not think this as something the lore on the nightborne support, but I have yet to be satisfied for your explanation why Nightborne can be monks but not druids based on established lore.

its because you are an elf fanboy, if try to come up with nonsene to explain void elf druid everything for you will make sense as druids

there is no mystery here
1- they have not a single druid in their history
2- They are not a nature based society they are an heavy arcane based society
3- they have no ties with nature
4- they do not live in harmony with nature
5- they don't seem to care nothing for nature magic at all
6- they do not have any relationship with a Wild god/Loa
7- they are more inclined to blood elf magic culture
8- they do not have an interaction with the emerald dream
9- they do not seem to want to be

and those are from the tob of my head

and to be monk you only need:

a pandaren monk in your starting area wot each you to be, this literally happen to every other race in MOP, why would be different now?

f you had approached it like others , and said simply blizzard doesn't want it so at least for now, or are too lazy to design nightborne druid forms, or aren't doing it because that would be 5 horde druid races to 3 alliance ones, or a more honest "I don't like the idea", then at least you'd be sincere. But you are going to some lengths to bash someone elses thoughts without any logical justification.

are you for real? i gave plenty of lore justification of why it make no sense

All we have is your opinion that "it makes no sense", not any real proof..

just because you don't like it don't mean its nto "real proof", there is real proof it is in the game and in the nightborne lore

which you can't really provide because this is a work of fiction and this discussion is based on opinions that draw their inspiration from the fictional material, but nothing more.

we can provide that, the ingame lore provide that, the nightborne lore and society provide that they make zero sense to be druids

No one but you is arguing that any of this is fact. It's all make belief. Don't create new arguments that don't exist here.

its a fact because its in the game already dude, just because its a fiction don't mean it don't have any facts in th narrative and you can just pretend things don't exist, or pretend it make sense in the game because it does in your head

Can you prove Valewalker Farodin is not a druid?

we can:

Farodin was part of an ancient order of keepers that was formed by the first of the elven magi, and a small enclave of proto-druids

not a druid, and his tittle valewalker also is a reference to another game class, not a druid

Can you prove that he or one of the Val'Sharah refugees now part of Suramar cannot teach the nightborne. Can you prove that this cannot happen or isn't feasible?

just because they run to suramar don't mean they are part of the suramar city or part of the nightborne

and even so, to one to teach someone must want to learn, and again, nightborne are an arcane based society, they do not care about rustic primal magic

the argument is made that nightborne druids given the story background are more feasible than monks, and a case can be made for nightborne druids, or even should be made based on that.

what background? their background of cutting themselves from their night elf brethren, and never had anything with nature magic? because they didn't

its literally "they should be druids because are elf"

]But do you even need to have a historical basis for any class?

most of times yes, when they don't, they must make sense somehow within the race, or they can just make any race be any class with this argument

even goblin druids who became druids to get more profit

- - - Updated - - -

Nope. Most people in WoW literally cannot use magic, your average citizen, farmer, soldier etc has no magical ability. Major lore characters like Varian or Garrosh - had no magical ability. It's basic lore really

you are talking about "people" and individuals, im talking about the race in general

any race can have "magic affinity", even if Varian and Garrosh do not have any magic the race does, you can find powerful mages, shamans, paladins and warlocks among then

[ravenmoon]

Please tell me who gives a fuck...

I guess you have something more interesting to discuss on the lore forum of a 15 year old game.

[apples]

because the game says so. if you disagree you are wrong

[Syegfryed]

But that's not what we're talking about - the whole argument is you saying anyone can be a monk - which uses magic - so obviously not everyone can be a monk

and anyone - any race - can be a monk, is not that hard,because - any race - can use that kind of magic

you only need a pandaren trainer and monks will exist in your race, simple as that.

[Syegfryed]

But that's literally not what we were ever talking about, any race can possess the ability to use chi magic that being a monk demands - but that doesn't mean everyone can. The same basic rules of magic apply, regardless of race - simply not every can use magic

its literally what im talking about, maybe you were in the wrong though

cause literally any race can be monks, its not that hard to someone learn that, its showed that you only need a pandaren teacher and people willingly to learn, and people who can learn pop up without a problem, its not like mages, warlocks that you need waaaay more studies and practice or like druids and shamans that you need more than just a teacher.

[ravenmoon]

its literally what im talking about, maybe you were in the wrong though

cause literally any race can be monks, its not that hard to someone learn that, its showed that you only need a pandaren teacher and people willingly to learn, and people who can learn pop up without a problem, its not like mages, warlocks that you need waaaay more studies and practice or like druids and shamans that you need more than just a teacher.

I wonder how Orcs became mages then, or warlocks in the first place too huh. And how Hamuul Runetotem became a druid, or many in lore characters that are specialist classes of races that don't have a tradition of that class amongst them.

I think this is enough to prove you are not correct on this matter here (sorry buddy, I disagree). You really only need a teacher and a willingness to do it (a culture can help or can develop because of one (like it did for Hamuul and the Mulgore Tauren as an example of culture). I think nightborne have that and more to warrant having that class. You keep trying to make arguements reminscent of Obelisk KAi, to crate some sort of impression that there is no way in lore nightborne can become druids, and that's just plain false. Lore has nothing to do with it, as becoming a class doesn't depend on lore as often as it does. Lore is always created to bring a class to a race anyway, and nightborne has sufficient lore to afford a druid class, but doesn't actually need to have pre-existing lore as new one can be created.

So having lore for it or not having lore is not the main criteria, you are not correct on this or using the lore to establish or prove that nightborne druidsm isn't possible or soouldnt' be a thing, as I mentioned to you a few posts ago, you're better off citing reasons like 5 horde druid races to 3 alliance ones, or work with forms etc as better reasons.. it's a judgement call on whether nightborne become druids, there is reason for it, but in a scenario where nightborne ally with blood elves instead of night elves migh havve been enough to shift the judgement to "not really a fit" - esepcially if you don't look closely.

And @Bennett is right, that isn't what the topic is mainly about, you did stray a bit, - no judgement there though, I do it all the time, go off on a litttle sidetrack that sometimes grow.

Let me guess, you don't agree with me, but I suspect this is not going to be about whether what I'm saying is true or not, it isa bout you being right, and you cannot accept not being right when you've put thought into something and have clear logical reasons you understand. You come off to me as a bit arrogant in this regard, and you appear to come off a bit angry to me based on the language you use when you address. This tells me a lot about you.

[Specialka]

As it was told to you, as the Lore currently stand, a nightborne druid does not make sense. Period.

If the Lore evolves, then that will change. Imo, every race should not be able to do every class.

[Syegfryed]

I wonder how Orcs became mages then

by training, kil'jaden teach the first orcs shamans how to use the arcane and the fel magic, in cataclysm Warchief Garrosh start to training more orcs mages to supply their forces and not rely on the warlocks, most of then were trained by undead/blood elf mages

the Orc mage trainer in the orc starting area specifically said she spend years studying in undercity , its not something they simple "yup now im a mage1!!"

or warlocks in the first place too huh.

are you for real?

And how Hamuul Runetotem became a druid, or many in lore characters that are specialist classes of races that don't have a tradition of that class amongst them.

you are just being disingenuous here

I think this is enough to prove you are not correct on this matter here (sorry buddy, I disagree).

no, i think it actually proved im correct, they learn in acceptable manner and lore friendly, it made sense

your "assumption" is literally "they are elf they should be druids herp derp"

You really only need a teacher and a willingness to do it

and nightborne have none of this, neither a teacher neither wiling to learn nature shenanigans, they only care about arcane stuff, thats why they went with the blood elves

(a culture can help or can develop because of one (like it did for Hamuul and the Mulgore Tauren as an example of culture).

Taurens were always pro-nature living in harmony with the natural world, is natural for then, this didn't happen with nightborne, no matter how you with for

I think nightborne have that and more to warrant having that class.

"bEcAuSe ThEY aRe ElVeS"

its a bullshit excuse

You keep trying to make arguements reminscent of Obelisk KAi,

what? im making my own arguments based on the lore, arguments that you cannot refute, because they are right and you are toying with fanfiction thinking they make sense because it works in your fanfic

to crate some sort of impression that there is no way in lore nightborne can become druids and that's just plain false.

Right now, as the lore goes there is simple no way they can become druids, thats simple a fact

you want to create fanfiction and nonsense to slip that to happen

Lore has nothing to do with it, as becoming a class doesn't depend on lore as often as it does. Lore is always created to bring a class to a race anyway, and nightborne has sufficient lore to afford a druid class, but doesn't actually need to have pre-existing lore as new one can be created.

thats not an argument, by this anything can be possible because they could always pull some nonsense and call a day

So having lore for it or not having lore is not the main criteria, you are not correct on this or using the lore to establish or prove that nightborne druidsm isn't possible or soouldnt' be a thing

Yes im correct to estate that with the established lore its proved that nightborne druids don't exist, and they don't make any sense, because its reality, like there is no sense to make goblins or gnomes druids

i never said it should not be a thing, even if i do think so, i said it make no sense, and since there is no lore to explain besides lame fanfiction there is no sense to be done.

Nightborne druidism make as much sense as undead, goblins and gnomes druids, if you want to open that shit to nightborne it would only be vallid if it would remove the class restriction to all races all together, cause every other race make as much sense or even more sense to be druids than nightborne.

as I mentioned to you a few posts ago, you're better off citing reasons like 5 horde druid races to 3 alliance ones, or work with forms etc as better reasons.. it's a judgement call on whether nightborne become druids, there is reason for it, but in a scenario where nightborne ally with blood elves instead of night elves migh havve been enough to shift the judgement to "not really a fit" - esepcially if you don't look closely.

literally what? you are making no sense here

there is no "call" to make nightborne druids, that shit prob never crossed their minds because spoilers: nightborne culture is totally revolved around arcane magic, and not a single thing about druidism or nature magic

Let me guess, you don't agree with me, but I suspect this is not going to be about whether what I'm saying is true or not, it isa bout you being right, and you cannot accept not being right when you've put thought into something and have clear logical reasons you understand..

of course im right, what did i say its wrong? i number several reason why nightborne are not druids neither make zero sense to be druids, you didn't addressed a single one of then, instead you deflect calling me out

i will put then again:

1- they have not a single druid in their history
2- They are not a nature based society they are an heavy arcane based society
3- they have no ties with nature
4- they do not live in harmony with nature
5- they don't seem to care nothing for nature magic at all
6- they do not have any relationship with a Wild god/Loa
7- they are more inclined to blood elf magic culture
8- they do not have an interaction with the emerald dream
9- they do not seem to want to be

for you, they can and should be druids, because simply, "they are elves", and for you, it make perfectly sense that elf = druids, despite and regardless the race having no tied with nature, no connection with it, an entire civilization revolved around arcane magic and blablabla, because you, are a long elf and druid player, and you know best what make sense for the elf race and the druid class

You come off to me as a bit arrogant in this regard, and you appear to come off a bit angry to me based on the language you use when you address. This tells me a lot about you

the "language" to me is pretty normal for the forum, i don't know where or why are you seeing something "angry" here.

and called "arrogant" coming from elf player, that made my day, do you know how much that sound ironic?

if right now, an totally revolved arcane based society, with no tie with nature, not giving a single shit about the nature ways, decide from night to day learn to be druids from however can learn, why this didn't happen with literally any other race in the game yet?

Orcs, goblins, pandarens, undeads live YEARS with taurens and trolls, 3 of those races are already connected with the nature someway and use nature magic, they have a way close relationship with then than nightborne, why they are not druids? why they should not be druids? but somehow nightborne should be?

Same with draenei, dwarves, humans, years living with night elves, but they can't be druids, but nightborne and void elves can, because ELF EQUALS DRUID LUL

thats the point, nightborne make no sense to be druids, there is other races who make more sense and should be druids first, if they make Nightborne druids would be an asspull that any other race should be too

[Traveler Voltin]

monks use chi

[Syegfryed]

How can you be missing the point so much? Monks use magic, not everyone in Warcraft is able to use magic, regardless of race

but any race can use magic, not matters if a individual is not apt to do, the race can, therefore there will be the individuals

- in fact most people aren't. Therefore being a monk inherently demands more than being a warrior does, which literally anyone can achieve through martial and physical training. That's my whole point, I literally cannot make it any more simple for you - if you still don't get it then I really dunno what to tell ya

monk training is major martial and physical training too, they use too few magic, and their magic is way more easy than a mage or a warlock, even the physical classes does use some sort of magic anyway, rogues use shadow magic, hunters use - arcane - shot, some rudimentar nature magic, warriors can use shockwaves and thunder energy

you want a proof? every race in the game just need a pandaren in their starting area to be monks, just like warriors, rogues, its not something hard or complicated, if you can't see that, well thats your problem

[mickybrighteyes]

How can you be missing the point so much? Monks use magic, not everyone in Warcraft is able to use magic, regardless of race - in fact most people aren't. Therefore being a monk inherently demands more than being a warrior does, which literally anyone can achieve through martial and physical training. That's my whole point, I literally cannot make it any more simple for you - if you still don't get it then I really dunno what to tell ya

actually.. every class in the game now uses magic somehow... thank the recent developments in class fantasy. To include titan imbued meatshields calling upon the avatar state to enhance their physical being.

[mickybrighteyes]

As for avatar, the game states it being a physical ability, not a spell - I simply put it down to certain Warriors being so powerful and experienced they are able to get angry to the point of physical enhancement - it's not magic

Stealth has the same classification... yet it is also a magical effect as well, minor mysticism and all

edit:

also... the effect in various game sources has been a physical transformation into a colossus (actual temporary giant growth), a call to ones enchanted bloodline, and a manifestation into properties of stone.

I mean... you can call it a physical ability, but it still remains a forced bodily transformation that is beyond breaking what I find to be the limits of "mundane". nevermind the partial shield manifestations, midair body manipulations and artifact/titan endowed gifts the class has gathered through the years.

I'd argue it's as much a 'physical' ability as worgen shifting and is not mundane in origin at all.

[Nenavn]

While they might receive a Druid class in the future, the present day Nightborne have had no connection to Elune or other wild spirits, instead magically cultivating and shaping their wildlife through volatile, arcane means.
Their withering was only barely cured by the grace of a tenuous combination of ancient Kal'dorei druidism with the ley energies of Suramar. Valewalker Farodin himself not even being a full Druid.

The Way of the Monk, on the other hand, is a path open to almost every individual willing to walk it, requiring at least some adherence to Pandaren philosophy and teachings. Point of fact, the Mag'har (who have been separated from the Pandaren and Monk cultural body for almost 20 years) take their own liberties with the ancient teachings and still make formidable monks.

Not to mention the Nightborne's love for their wines and the processes involved with crafting them, possessing the capacity for the kind of bon vivants that make for proper Brewmasters.

[ravenmoon]

While they might receive a Druid class in the future, the present day Nightborne have had no connection to Elune or other wild spirits, instead magically cultivating and shaping their wildlife through volatile, arcane means.
Their withering was only barely cured by the grace of a tenuous combination of ancient Kal'dorei druidism with the ley energies of Suramar. Valewalker Farodin himself not even being a full Druid.

The Way of the Monk, on the other hand, is a path open to almost every individual willing to walk it, requiring at least some adherence to Pandaren philosophy and teachings. Point of fact, the Mag'har (who have been separated from the Pandaren and Monk cultural body for almost 20 years) take their own liberties with the ancient teachings and still make formidable monks.

Not to mention the Nightborne's love for their wines and the processes involved with crafting them, possessing the capacity for the kind of bon vivants that make for proper Brewmasters.

Do you honestly think that is a good enough reason?

I have yet to find a lore based reason that is more convincing than any non-lore based reason. Even if you don't feel their druidsm is likely (which you state that you do later), it is certainly more evident in them than it was in worgen, trolls and tauren before they were allowed to be druids.

The Darnassians were the only race that had a culture of druidsm (this is for those who argue a culture is necessary - that is such b/s btw), tauren, worgen and trolls did not, one person had contact with someone druidic related and it spread from there. Aside from worgen who's form stabilisation required night elf priest and druids, Nightborne have the most contact and interaction with druidism of any other playable race in Warcraft (except the Darnassians) prior to the class becoming available - in other words, after Darnassian night elves, they are the racial group with the strongest connection and involvement of druidsm in their story before an individual learning it and a class coming from it [amongst the Kul'tirans the drust druids are a remote sect of the people of that land, they have no influence or part in the Kul'tiran society unlike the botanists of the nightboren and the effects of the arcan'dor). What we see in the nightborne story has mor druidsm in it than what we saw in the Tauuren and in the trolls before they became druids. Nightborne druidic intervention plays I would say even more a saving role than the Gilnean one, because withering leads to death. You don't wander as withered indefinitely, you just spend the remaining days in a crazed state before dying. The Arcan'dor is also more at the centre of the nightborne now than anything the druids did to the worgen.

[Maljinwo]

Do you honestly think that is a good enough reason?

It's a pretty good reason

[Specialka]

Yeha, only for it is not good enough, but you said it yourself, you are an elf fan which translate as your opinion is bias when it is about elf, so your opinion should be dismissed to stay rational.

[ravenmoon]

Yeha, only for it is not good enough, but you said it yourself, you are an elf fan which translate as your opinion is bias when it is about elf, so your opinion should be dismissed to stay rational.

What does liking elves or elf bias have to do with the arguments?

Even though it's off topic, I'm curious. Why is supporting nightborne druidsm elf bias? I dont think nightborne should be shaman nor have a case for it, am I unbiased because of that?

How does pointing out the various elements in the rsce and its story that make druidsm more plausible for nightborne over monks biased or an indication of bias, whether I like, love or am crazy for elves or not at all?


Would you conclude anyone who agrees as also biased? Or just me solely because you perceive me to like elves - in which case how is that relevant?

[mickybrighteyes]

Do you honestly think that is a good enough reason?

I have yet to find a lore based reason that is more convincing than any non-lore based reason.

You clearly disagree... trying to state "is it really though?" is a poor attempt to show it isn't a valid reason... The fact that it keeps coming back up in this and other threads seems to suggest many people do, in fact, find it a good enough reason.

The Darnassians were the only race that had a culture of druidsm

They were the first to have it embraced and nurture the groups that became known as druids... That doesn't make them the ONLY druidic group, unless you're going on about some weird notion you define 'druidic'

tauren, worgen and trolls did not, one person had contact with someone druidic related and it spread from there.

Trolls were a hand wave cause devs were responding to low popularity among the classes and were trying to use some halfassed balance argument as they were adding a new druid race to the alliance. Their presence among druid ranks was also entirely because of them changing their world views and pursuing druidic training specifically...

Worgen... hold on, maybe you actually are aware of what was going on with them...

And as for Tauren? well, I'm not sure you can really state they didn't have some inclination toward what eventually became druidic teachings. We have Malfurion interacting with them in some fashion and tauren among the ranks of the highest authority in the Cenarion Circle.. Tauren history isn't so readily available as Night elf, and their general shamanistic, earth mother, nomadic lifestyles isn't that far off from what I, for one, would associate with Druidic practices.

Aside from worgen who's form stabilisation

Good... you DID hit on it. This one ritual allowing literally EVERY gilnean who followed Genn to help retain their humanity is a huge factor to indicate a shift in ideals from what we might expect among main land "humans"

Nightborne have the most contact and interaction with druidism of any other playable race in Warcraft (except the Darnassians) prior to the class becoming available -

Actually no. The nightborne are from the time before Malfurion's druidism spread. They reached a point where they deemed Cenarius a myth or legend (comparable to Bigfoot/Sasquatch IRL... Malfurion was a madlad who went off looking for bigfoot and was surprised he actually found him!

the effects of the arcan'dor).

I'm chalking the Arcan'dor up to arcanists fucking around with bullshit. More of "wizard did it" than entirely "druidic magic source"... what with the seeds predating formal druidic teachings existence and spread.

What we see in the nightborne story has mor druidsm in it than what we saw in the Tauuren and in the trolls before they became druids.

Again, trolls are druids largely because of the excuse of "People interacting and mingling over time learn new shit!" as a lore justification... or "Well we need to make a new druid race for balance reasons...."

Nightborne druidic intervention

There was less druidic intervention here than Shamanic intervention in saving human nations. At least the planet can say a living shaman directly saved all existence. You can't say a druid was the main thing pushing the nightborne story (well unless the player character in your play through happened to be a druid. I think you overstate Farodin's role and are also assuming he is a real druid (sources indicate otherwise)

Also... you can find this phrase when you care to look: Arcan'dor, Gift of the Ancient Magi

Just saying... it aint the gift of the ancient druids...