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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by xGLxAnubis View Post
    People REALLY underestimate the power of the updated talent trees, Debuffs to 16 from 8, AND Debuff Priority (Because originally you could push ANY debuff off the target).

    So take warriors for example, where Fury was worthless (No Bloodthirst) and Arms couldn't take Impale (Because Deep Wounds would remove good debuffs), and Mortal Strike would eat up a debuff slot anyhow. Tanks also didn't have Shield Slam and Imp Sunder Armor didn't reduce the cost, so threat was REALLY bad.

    https://classicwowtalents.appspot.co...lent=1124125_1

    Take a look at how bad some of the trees were. And keep in mind you're limited to 8 debuff slots and every debuff you apply removes a debuff from the boss.

    And I'm pretty sure there was a gear itemization fix that went into effect before 1.12 as well, so power level spiked from that too.

    VANILLA was hard. Classic isn't. NO ONE Thought Classic was going to be hard.
    It's really easy to use extremely biased information to draw that conclusion. You do realize there were a tremendous number of changes that nerfed player characters and made the content more difficult as well, right?

    Here is a single one of those changes that would have a tremendous upwards impact on caster DPS if it was reverted:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...y_was_a_thing/



    "Spell penetration used to cause negative resistance, which registered in the combat log as bonus damage 'vulnerability bonus'.

    It was removed in patch 1.9"

    There are dozens upon dozens of changes that nerfed extremely powerful stacking trinkets and buffs as well as other things.

  2. #302
    unauthorized servers have had the classic wow values for awhile, i would not doubt there are classic wow players on them practicing, etc.

    the player that got world first 60 with a mage, was interviewed by another streamer/youtuber prior to classic wow. the player said he should be able to hit 60 in 2 days. the player mentioned he had tested his method several times and days prior on a unauthorized server updated and tuned to classic wow, which was obtained from classic wow preload/beta/etc.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Timewalker View Post
    Kel Thuzad will be on farm after the first week.
    For the relevant guilds, he already has been on farm for 14 years.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    No it doesnt becouse classic raids doesnt have button and interface menu where you can ignore all problems coming from 40 man raid? If classic would have LFR for MC nobady would manage to kill any boss. Classic raids are definitly harder than bfa LFR and even normal. Those bosses might have more mechanics but there is 0 preparation and most of those mechanics can be completly ignored.
    First off, 30 completely random pugs are already smashing MC in 60-90 minutes - zero prep, no consumables, no communication, just walking in and completely stomping it. I know, i have been in a few of them on an alt - you know, EXACTLY LIKE LFR. Secondly, this idea that mechanics in normal can be ignored is absolute bullshit, UNLESS you have an entire raid of extremely overgeared players who have already cleared said raid on heroic and mythic multiple times, in which case there are situations later in a tier where certain mechanics can be ignored because A) you can handle the deaths because raid dps is so high (just like in classic now) or B) DPS is so high you can skip entire phases. This is the gearing equivalent of a naxx geared raid team going back to MC, and ignoring mechanics. This idea that mechanics in normal can be completely ignored is bullshit made up by blind classic fanbois who are trying to justify "their" games pathetically easy difficulty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Dude most casual classic players never killed single boss in MC. But guess what most casual players clear every single raid tier in BFA. Classic is for casual player harder to clear becouse it has no difficutly levels and easy mods thats why modern game is considered easyer. Mythic on retail is not new content is same content as LFR and casual player by beating game on LFR consider game fininished. Classic do no have short cuts. You dont content or you dont.
    "Dude" most casual classic raiders have CLEARED MC multiple times with pugs, most of which dont even have 40 players. Most casual raiders in BFA have cleared LFR, and probably normal as well. But you are confusing casual players with casual raiders. Because Blizzard themselves have stated multiple times that the majority of players dont even complete LFR, let alone any other raiding. And the same is true for Classic i am sure. This is just so misguided and untrue it hurts my brain to read - LFR and Mythic only share one thing, and thats a story/location. Every single encounter is VASTLY different, with entirely new mechanics and phases, and generally, new adds, and sometimes bosses as well.

    What you are trying to suggest is that going for a jog one morning makes you EXACTLY the same as an Olympic long distance runner - its the same thing after all, just running. Thats how stupid it sounds, comparing Mythic with LFR and saying "its the same thing" just because that needs to be the case to fit your narrative.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    I wasn't trying to be pretentious but I was trying to explain the context behind the fact that, your guild which clears in 1h45min won't be able to actively clear every classic raid to fulfill your entire rosters' need and/or desire for gear on a casual schedule, since you are content at clearing MC i.e by far the fastest and easiest raid in classic in a long time.
    You're wrong though, I know for a fact we will clear every raid in classic without issue. Sure we may go to 2 nights to clear AQ40 and Naxx, but we will clear it all, even on day 1 of Naxx. If we need to do clever pulls or skips of trash in order to clear Naxx in sub 2 hours, then we will. We don't do it now in MC because it's annoying to do and we can just bullshit through the raid each week. Clearing MC in 35 minutes sounds annoying as hell when you can just relax and clear it in 90 minutes, and do 2 splits of Ony in 2 hours total. It would be more feasible to push the content in Naxx in order to get a 1-night clear, but right now, regardless, we are clearing MC in one night.
    Retired WoW player. Ameteur family man.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Trajer View Post
    You're wrong though, I know for a fact we will clear every raid in classic without issue. Sure we may go to 2 nights to clear AQ40 and Naxx, but we will clear it all, even on day 1 of Naxx. If we need to do clever pulls or skips of trash in order to clear Naxx in sub 2 hours, then we will. We don't do it now in MC because it's annoying to do and we can just bullshit through the raid each week. Clearing MC in 35 minutes sounds annoying as hell when you can just relax and clear it in 90 minutes, and do 2 splits of Ony in 2 hours total. It would be more feasible to push the content in Naxx in order to get a 1-night clear, but right now, regardless, we are clearing MC in one night.
    You're talking to a guy who said this just 1 page back "A good guild in Naxxramas is going to set aside atleast 4 hours for the full raid, with probably 1 break". So i wouldnt suggest you can clear it in under HALF the time he claims "good guilds" will require.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You're talking to a guy who said this just 1 page back "A good guild in Naxxramas is going to set aside atleast 4 hours for the full raid, with probably 1 break". So i wouldnt suggest you can clear it in under HALF the time he claims "good guilds" will require.
    Fair, I may be underestimating the time. Either way, the way you were talking sounded like "if you're not clearing MC in 35min you won't clear Naxx in one night." Maybe we won't clear it in 2 hours, but we'll be clearing it in one night for sure.
    Retired WoW player. Ameteur family man.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Trajer View Post
    Fair, I may be underestimating the time. Either way, the way you were talking sounded like "if you're not clearing MC in 35min you won't clear Naxx in one night." Maybe we won't clear it in 2 hours, but we'll be clearing it in one night for sure.
    Oh it wasnt me at all, i have no doubt average raiding guilds will be crushing naxx immediately, the person you are responding to considers Classic raids to be on par with Mythic retail raids, so yeah.

  9. #309
    Yes and where is the problem ?

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh it wasnt me at all, i have no doubt average raiding guilds will be crushing naxx immediately, the person you are responding to considers Classic raids to be on par with Mythic retail raids, so yeah.
    Ohh lol my bad, thought you were him.
    Retired WoW player. Ameteur family man.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmilblick View Post
    Yes and where is the problem ?
    I dont think anyone is really saying there is a "problem" or, if there is, i certainly dont agree with them. However i think a small section of the classic community set themselves up for disappointment, and in some situations, a bit of general mockery. Many of us (i would like to think the majority) knew how low the difficulty was compared to modern wow, and were actually looking forward to it. The joy of the current setup with both classic and retail running together is, if you want a challenge, retail is there for you. If you prefer a more social and very simplistic version of the game, that exists as well! I think thats a fantastic thing.

    The difficulty and requirements of retails harder content mean it can be quite draining on higher end players, so for many, classic is a great opportunity to still raid, but without any of the challenges presented by harder content. Like i said, many, if not most, knew this was the case long ahead of the launch of classic, and got exactly what we expected. However there was a very vocal minority who suggested classics content would be a challenge even for heroic/mythic raiders, and now that they have egg on their face, there is a level of enjoyment for some watching them squirm and twist in discomfort as the truth comes out.

    Most of those players gave up fighting the truth almost immediately, however some stuck to their guns and simply went with excuses, and some amazing attempts at revisionist history. The goalposts have now clearly been shifted to the next raid, and when that falls over in a matter of hours, and casual raid guilds have it cleared week 1, the goalposts will shift again until eventually we reach naxx. At that point, the inevitable will happen:

    "no one EVER said vanilla raids were going to be hard, but you just wait for BC! its going to destroy guilds!"

    tl;dr - Its not a "problem" so much as it is an interesting discussion point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trajer View Post
    Ohh lol my bad, thought you were him.
    No drama at all, just making sure you didnt think i was the loony who thinks vanilla raids are as hard as current Mythic.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    As I said, before is that Classic raiding isn't hard, but neither is retail raiding, it's infinitely more punishing to fail in classic than retail though.
    Have you cleared mythic Azshara or mythic Jaina? That shit is damn hard even with 20 top geared players.

    Also I know it's not raiding, but doing m+ on 20-25 keys is also damn hard.

    The most challenging content in retail is damn hard.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    Also, the difficulty of classic raids aren't in how hard the bosses are, which I have repeatedly argued without refutation from your end.
    You are in the wrong thread then mate, go create your own then, cause this thread is called BWL AQ Naxx will be demolished with ease aka they are easy af, which everyone already knows, why twist stuff to fit your narrative? it only makes it more funny.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Moor Shadows View Post
    - Within, of course, the time allowed via gating/grinding. The actual bosses will go down like flies in a window on a summers day.

    This isn't criticism of the game, but a wake-up call to those who think Classic was just "hard" and that no amount of player experience will change that: you are completely wrong. This content will be a cake-walk for any reasonably experienced guild. People put MC being cleared so fast down to 1.12: trust me, it would have been cleared in the same time even in an earlier patch.

    And when this starts, I'm expecting to see the usual conspiracy theories about "stealth nerfs" and whatnot. Just accept you're not going to be waiting for months on end to see bosses fall. Concentrate on your progress and enjoyment of the game, ultimately
    Uhh vast majority of guilds clearing mc won't ever see the end of aq def not naxx. There is no lfr most people will never see it done.

    Guilds will struggle on vael with a simple chain cleave

    It's a lot harder than some retail content. Lol

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    Uhh vast majority of guilds clearing mc won't ever see the end of aq def not naxx. There is no lfr most people will never see it done.

    Guilds will struggle on vael with a simple chain cleave

    It's a lot harder than some retail content. Lol
    The hardest content classic has to offer is 'harder' than SOME of the easiest content retail has to offer - LFR, but mostly on par with it.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The hardest content classic has to offer is 'harder' than SOME of the easiest content retail has to offer - LFR, but mostly on par with it.
    LFR has no idiot check mechanics

    Vanilla is filled with retard checks

    Lucifron, Vael, they go on. And will kill most of the guilds in this game

    Most p server guilds didn't finish the content....And it wasn't because they didn't parse well enough. it was simple idiot checks like can' you deal with vael cleave

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    No it doesnt becouse classic raids doesnt have button and interface menu where you can ignore all problems coming from 40 man raid? If classic would have LFR for MC nobady would manage to kill any boss. Classic raids are definitly harder than bfa LFR and even normal. Those bosses might have more mechanics but there is 0 preparation and most of those mechanics can be completly ignored.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Dude most casual classic players never killed single boss in MC. But guess what most casual players clear every single raid tier in BFA. Classic is for casual player harder to clear becouse it has no difficutly levels and easy mods thats why modern game is considered easyer. Mythic on retail is not new content is same content as LFR and casual player by beating game on LFR consider game fininished. Classic do no have short cuts. You dont content or you dont.
    LFR lets you ignore mechanics, but even Normal doesn't. You'll die if you're stupid with tornados on Radiance. You'll die if you don't get the fish buff on Behemoth. You'll die if you stand on Ichor like an idiot on Orgozoa. Unless the raid's DPS is fairly high, you'll also die if you ignore the wards and other mechanics on Azshara; these are but examples. I've seen pugs repeatedly wipe in Normal when Palace first released. Now I assume it's less common with the gear upgrades we got, but still.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    LFR lets you ignore mechanics, but even Normal doesn't. You'll die if you're stupid with tornados on Radiance. You'll die if you don't get the fish buff on Behemoth. You'll die if you stand on Ichor like an idiot on Orgozoa. Unless the raid's DPS is fairly high, you'll also die if you ignore the wards and other mechanics on Azshara; these are but examples. I've seen pugs repeatedly wipe in Normal when Palace first released. Now I assume it's less common with the gear upgrades we got, but still.
    From my experience, it actually becomes MORE common in pugs later in a tiers life cycle. From what i have seen, its usually players who have cleared it as a tank bringing their terrible DPS having never dpsd the encounters, and fucking up really simple mechanics, or simply horribly under performing because although they know the content, they lack a decent understanding of their alts abilities. If i was going to pick one word, it would be "complacency".

    Obviously as people become more geared and experienced, they tend to push into higher difficulties, which leaves normal to be REALLY hit and miss. And yes, those claiming there is no danger in normal clearly have ZERO experience with retail raiding. They may be very simple to avoid, but there are multiple fights that absolutely will result in complete wipes if players do not follow major mechanics.

    As i have said before, as players becomes massively over geared, and come back to normal to carry a friend or just for fun, certain mechanics can be bypassed due to pushing phases quickly, or just simply overpowering certain mechanics through DPS or HPS.

  19. #319
    The only guilds blitzing through the future raids will be the ones whom have already done so hundreds of times over the last decade. There will not be any 'fresh' classic guilds (purely filled with people who never played vanilla nor private servers) steamrolling AQ40 or Naxx in the first week. None. Guaranteed.

    Classic raids arent easy because they have the bar set low, they are easy because you have already farmed them to the ground.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    The only guilds blitzing through the future raids will be the ones whom have already done so hundreds of times over the last decade. There will not be any 'fresh' classic guilds (purely filled with people who never played vanilla nor private servers) steamrolling AQ40 or Naxx in the first week. None. Guaranteed.

    Classic raids arent easy because they have the bar set low, they are easy because you have already farmed them to the ground.
    The problem with statements like these is that you have used intangible measures. With a floating bar, you have ensured you can always say "i was right!" because you have set no standard. You have said a lot of word salad that essentially equates to "AQ and Naxx are harder, and not everyone that has completed MC will complete those raids" which is an arbitrary statement with no real meaning. The reason it holds no real weight is that this statement could be 'true' but for completely unrelated reasons to what you are trying to claim, for example, they may have quit raiding, or quit playing altogether, but that has no relationship to content difficulty.

    Some predict the player numbers will continue to drop, meaning yes, by default less players will complete later content.

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