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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    Uhh vast majority of guilds clearing mc won't ever see the end of aq def not naxx. There is no lfr most people will never see it done.

    Guilds will struggle on vael with a simple chain cleave

    It's a lot harder than some retail content. Lol
    I've done KJ on LFR. I'm pretty sure I am ready for (lol)Naxx. And I'm a third rate player in Classic. BWL will be a stroll in the park. AQ will be a joke. Naxx? Hahahaha. If the game even interests me to this point I'm doing naxx level dps now and I don't even have all blues yet. (I understand there is gear that is blue that is prenaxx bis, I don't have it). You are just delusional.

    Can't wait for the "we knew naxx was going to be easy, just wait for BC" threads.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    LFR has no idiot check mechanics

    Vanilla is filled with retard checks

    Lucifron, Vael, they go on. And will kill most of the guilds in this game

    Most p server guilds didn't finish the content....And it wasn't because they didn't parse well enough. it was simple idiot checks like can' you deal with vael cleave
    Of course PS guilds struggle. Their hard content is my LFR. Retail would destroy most PS guilds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    LFR has no idiot check mechanics

    Vanilla is filled with retard checks

    Lucifron, Vael, they go on. And will kill most of the guilds in this game

    Most p server guilds didn't finish the content....And it wasn't because they didn't parse well enough. it was simple idiot checks like can' you deal with vael cleave
    Lmao someone here has never tried to do LFR g'huun, LFR KJ, LFR Garrosh or any number of other LFR bosses that a ton of LFR groups could not kill without an absurd number of stacks.

    Like, no, just no man. There are way more "retard checks" in retail than vanilla.

    I'd expect the average LFR raider to be about on par with your average classic raider in terms of mechanical ability. Obviously not all - but most people raiding on classic aren't exactly the cream of the crop.

    Which is perfectly fine - if people want to enjoy easier content, more power to them. But the idea classic has more "pass/fail" checks than retail raiding is just a very dubious claim.
    Last edited by asil; 2020-01-06 at 11:20 PM.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Lmao someone here has never tried to do LFR g'huun, LFR KJ, LFR Garrosh or any number of other LFR bosses that a ton of LFR groups could not kill without an absurd number of stacks.

    Like, no, just no man. There are way more "retard checks" in retail than vanilla.

    I'd expect the average LFR raider to be about on par with your average classic raider in terms of mechanical ability. Obviously not all - but most people raiding on classic aren't exactly the cream of the crop.
    I think classic raiding is a really good alternative for those who find normal retail raids too challenging - its still fun, you can socialise a lot more due to the simplicity, and with the 1-2 button rotations, what mechanics do exist can be avoided with ease, allowing more time to soak in the aesthetics of the raid and the environment. But in saying that, some of those would find the mundane leveling too slow and boring, so might not make it to 60.

    Just remember, this thread has people who GENUINELY believe classic raiding is as hard, as demanding as mythic raiding, as well as a couple who think nothing in normal can kill you. They are either extremely dishonest, or, more likely, have zero experience in retail.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    First off, 30 completely random pugs are already smashing MC in 60-90 minutes - zero prep, no consumables, no communication, just walking in and completely stomping it.
    I call BS.
    A halfway decent guild, that actually uses World buffs & Consumables does MC in about an hour.

    Yet you want to tell me that a pug, that has neither World buffs nor consumables does in about the same time?

    So, either you got carried on your alt by people that actually used that shit, or you're lying.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-06 at 11:32 PM.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I call BS.
    A halfway decent guild, that actually uses World buffs & Consumables does MC in about an hour.

    Yet you want to tell a pug, that has neither World buffs nor consumables does in about the same time?

    So, either you got carried on your alt by people that actually used that shit, or your lying.
    Not just me explaining the truth, there is someone else in here explaining that with 30 people, in greens, with zero communication or world buffs, clear it in under 90 minutes. Why is it hard for people to accept this is going on every day, its not unusual or special, its the norm.

    Exactly which world buffs (plural) are you stacking for these clears?

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Misuteri View Post
    What difference does it make?

    You mean people have learned in 15 years how to use pots, wizard oil, flasks, potions, stack buffs and itemize vs showing up in greens and yelling “PULL!”?

    So bosses don’t have 5 phases, you don’t need players to nuke adds or set up stacks/spread out etc. SO WHAT?

    You’re basically complaining that people want to play a game they enjoy in an version/era they loved or never got to see?
    Didn't people show up to the APES WF Ony and Rag in greens on Classic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Not just me explaining the truth, there is someone else in here explaining that with 30 people, in greens, with zero communication or world buffs, clear it in under 90 minutes.
    The issue is that these numbers don't add up.

    People have a full array of world buffs + Consumables ~ double their dps, now take the full bunch of consumables into account, (Mana / Rage) potions etc.., the sky is really the limit in terms of min/maxing.

    So, if these people on top of that are really going for chainpulls (which is rather risky because dying = no more world buffs) are doing MC in like ~40 minutes, then it's rather unlikely that a pug, who doesn't use any of these preperation does the same Instance merely in merely 20 more minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Exactly which world buffs (plural) are you stacking for these clears?
    -Dragonslayer buff (140 AP + 5% Melee Crit ; 10% Spell crit)
    -DM North (200AP, 3% Spellcrit, 15% Sta)
    -Songflower Serenade (15 Mainstats, 5% Crit)
    -Warchiefs blessing (Horde only) (300Hp, 15% Haste, 10Mp5)

    So, let's say you're a Dps Warrior, you have
    +340 AP
    + 10% Crit
    + 15 % Haste
    + 15 Mainstats

    Now add in the wide array of consumables that exist, especially for Melees, you can see why it's rather unlikely that a pug, that ignores any of these would come even close to that clear time of an organized group that uses these buffs and plays on the edge in terms of pulling.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-06 at 11:56 PM.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The issue is that these numbers don't add up.

    People have a full array of world buffs + Consumables ~ double their dps, now take the full bunch of consumables into account, (Mana / Rage) potions etc.., the sky is really the limit in terms of min/maxing.

    So, if these people on top of that are really going for chainpulls (which is rather risky because dying = no more world buffs) are doing MC in like ~40 minutes, then it's rather unlikely that a pug, who doesn't use any of these preperation does the same Instance merely requires 20 more minutes, is just bogus.



    -Dragonslayer buff (140 AP + 5% Melee Crit ; 10% Spell crit)
    -DM North (200AP, 3% Spellcrit, 15% Sta)
    -Songflower Serenade (15 Mainstats, 5% Crit)
    -Warchiefs blessing (Horde only) (300Hp, 15% Haste, 10Mp5)

    So, let's say you're a Dps Warrior, you have
    +340 AP
    + 10% Crit
    + 15 % Haste
    + 15 Mainstats

    Now add in the wide array of consumables that exist, especially for Melees, you can see why it's rather unlikely that a pug, that ignores any of these would come even close to that clear time of an organized group that uses these buffs and plays on the edge in terms of pulling.
    I don't know of a single grp that uses world buffs. They simply are not required for a clean and easy run between 60 and 90 minutes. I have never done a clear when anyone has had any world buffs, the time taken to aquire them can make the overall process take LONGER, rather than making it quicker. It's simply not worth the effort.

    I also find it amusing you tunnel in on the 60min time, ignoring the other 30 mins in the rough range i provided, and talk about it being "only 20 mins more" while ignoring the fact that is a 50% increase in clear time, and at 90 mins, over 100% increase in clear time - both very dramatic increases.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-01-07 at 12:00 AM.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    But hes correct and each will be cleared within the week of their release (and access).
    As opposed to current retail where it's cleared within the week of release? Please, pen me a letter telling me where to send my thoughts and prayers.
    We both know you're wrong, I'm just louder than your quiet conscious.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Didn't people show up to the APES WF Ony and Rag in greens on Classic?
    They did, but the apes members have said some of them did use consumables, they had planned that first clear for months. I consider this clear to be the extreme end of the scale, but now, a few months later, even the casual raiding guilds are doing similar with 30+ lvl 60 characters, little no no prep at all, and still killing bosses in 30-45 seconds.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I don't know of a single grp that uses world buffs. They simply are not required for a clean and easy run between 60 and 90 minutes.
    The point is that the numbers don't add up.
    If Consumables + World buffs double your dps, you aren't taking any breaks for mana and just chug mana pots / runes instead, you're not just going 20min faster than a random assortment of 30(!) people, especially if you are 40 on top of that.

    In your average MC pug, especially in one without voice, it's more likely that someone body pulls some trash mob, which can be threatening depending on your situation, because some trash mobs in MC just straight up kill people and ressing (multiple) people in Classic eats up time. a lot.
    In order to do such a quick run, you need to skip mobs that can absolutely be bodypulled.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have never done a clear when anyone has had any world buffs, the time taken to aquire them can make the overall process take LONGER, rather than making it quicker. It's simply not worth the effort.
    Considering those are used for speedruns, that's irrelevant.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcath View Post
    As opposed to current retail where it's cleared within the week of release? Please, pen me a letter telling me where to send my thoughts and prayers.
    By semi professional raid teams with 18+ hour days and months and months of prep work, but i dont think anyone is arguing about that, other than the horribly inaccurate graph, the difference is the next level of players, the casuals, who were clearing the same content within a few days / week. That does NOT happen on retail, and that is where the main difference lies - the bleeding edge guilds will clear naxx first, and on day 1, there is no doubt about that, however the next 100+ groups will clear it within a week. That takes months on retail.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering those are used for speedruns, that's irrelevant.
    - Claims my experience is false because of world buffs

    - immediately claims they are "irrelevant"

    You are too funny man, way too funny. The numbers add up just fine, and so do the personal experiences of multiple people on this forum, openly admitting they are casual at best, still clearing the place in under 90 mins. This isnt an outlier, it isnt rare. It is the norm.

    If you dont think that reducing a clear time by HALF is massive, i really dont know what to tell you.

    Well i do have ONE thing to tell you - those speed runners you think take 40 mins to clear it? They are sub 30 mins, and have been for weeks. Around 25mins is the mark atm i believe, so i really hate to completely crush your argument again, but it is YOUR numbers that dont add up.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    - Claims my experience is false because of world buffs
    It's not just world buff, you claimed:
    -you going in 30 people
    -No consumables
    -No World buffs
    -Entirely random

    Under the entirety of these factors, a clear in slightly over 60min is anything but the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    openly admitting they are casual at best, still clearing the place in under 90 mins.
    Raiding on classic is currently an extremely casual activity, your average guild does that in MC easily.
    But there is a world of difference between a guild which has a structure and some people that have a basic clue of game at its head, than a random pug.

    I don't claim that only hardcore people are able to do this, but entering a MC pug from the trade chat, won't result in a ~60min clear, let alone if they are going with 30 people.

    Let me rephrase that, if you join a guild that does MC, doing MC in something about 60 minutes is nothing special, but that's because guilds are generally run and made up by some people that have a clue about the game.
    Guilds aren't your random pug and that's where i call BS on your claim, because you claimed that any pug does this.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Well i do have ONE thing to tell you - those speed runners you think take 40 mins to clear it? They are sub 30 mins, and have been for weeks. Around 25mins is the mark atm i believe, so i really hate to completely crush your argument again, but it is YOUR numbers that dont add up.
    That's the record currently.
    You're free to check the runs at 40min as well and realize that people use the above described tools there as well.
    Those that are doing the sub 30min runs are just optmized even further in terms of setup and strat.

    The fastest run currently (25:34) for example has 18 Dps Warriors, not exactly a steup that every guild can stem.

    Like, bosses such as Harbinger or Executus die even faster because all adds just get stacked up and blown up via Sapper charges.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-07 at 12:35 AM.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    By semi professional raid teams with 18+ hour days and months and months of prep work, but i dont think anyone is arguing about that, other than the horribly inaccurate graph, the difference is the next level of players, the casuals, who were clearing the same content within a few days / week. That does NOT happen on retail, and that is where the main difference lies - the bleeding edge guilds will clear naxx first, and on day 1, there is no doubt about that, however the next 100+ groups will clear it within a week. That takes months on retail.
    No, no. We're not talking THE DAY of release. We're talking within the week. Which almost every top end server does currently. If you think you're going to skate by on mere semantics then you've got something to learn.

    Who

    Cares?

    It's as if you don't understand that PTR realms exist and a ton of active raiders participate in it. Besides the fact that lots of people clear end game content within the week, IF your perception is that the "normal" player doesn't get to participate in these events due to guild participation/personal economy/development, then what would be the qualification for these so called norms to do the same in classic? Ok, so now that you don't have any argument, why not try and be less outraged over something you don't care about?
    We both know you're wrong, I'm just louder than your quiet conscious.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcath View Post
    No, no. We're not talking THE DAY of release. We're talking within the week. Which almost every top end server does currently. If you think you're going to skate by on mere semantics then you've got something to learn.

    Who

    Cares?

    It's as if you don't understand that PTR realms exist and a ton of active raiders participate in it. Besides the fact that lots of people clear end game content within the week, IF your perception is that the "normal" player doesn't get to participate in these events due to guild participation/personal economy/development, then what would be the qualification for these so called norms to do the same in classic? Ok, so now that you don't have any argument, why not try and be less outraged over something you don't care about?
    Wait, are you trying to suggest that not just one, but multiple guilds are clearing Mythic the WEEK of release? You cant honestly believe that can you? There are not anywhere near that level of guilds fully clearing mythic week one, and i have absolutely no fucking idea where you got that information. I mean honestly, you couldnt be more wrong to think that "almost every top end server" full clears mythic on release week. Seriously, where do you get this information? Most of the recent world first races have revolved around the top few guilds in the world (who had yet to get final boss down) making a plan of attack for AFTER THE FIRST RESET. This has become a MAJOR strategy point for guilds, whether they continue to slog on, or start doing split runs and even M+ to prepare for week 2.

    Honestly I just cant believe the level of dishonesty from the handful of classic fanbois, who just openly lie about very easily searchable and very well known facts, most of which are highly documented.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not just world buff, you claimed:
    -you going in 30 people
    -No consumables
    -No World buffs
    -Entirely random

    Under the entirety of these factors, a clear in slightly over 60min is anything but the norm.



    Raiding on classic is currently an extremely casual activity, your average guild does that in MC easily.
    But there is a world of difference between a guild which has a structure and some people that have a basic clue of game at its head, than a random pug.

    I don't claim that only hardcore people are able to do this, but entering a MC pug from the trade chat, won't result in a ~60min clear, let alone if they are going with 30 people.

    Let me rephrase that, if you join a guild that does MC, doing MC in something about 60 minutes is nothing special, but that's because guilds are generally run and made up by some people that have a clue about the game.
    Guilds aren't your random pug and that's where i call BS on your claim, because you claimed that any pug does this.



    That's the record currently.
    You're free to check the runs at 40min as well and realize that people use the above described tools there as well.
    Those that are doing the sub 30min runs are just optmized even further in terms of setup and strat.

    The fastest run currently (25:34) for example has 18 Dps Warriors, not exactly a steup that every guild can stem.

    Like, bosses such as Harbinger or Executus die even faster because all adds just get stacked up and blown up via Sapper charges.
    Man thats an awful lot of words when "Hey, you are right, i am wrong" would have worked just as well. It is fun watching you jump between "its not possible" to "well, its possible, and normal, but only if its a guild", and numerous iterations of "hey, im just gonna backtrack my way out of this since all my numbers have been shown to be garbage". Its not hard to just say "hey, you know what, after looking into it further, it looks like you might be right"

    You are desperately trying to change my argument so you can dismantle it more easily - i never said ANY / EVERY pug is clearing it 60-90 minutes, i said its the norm - its just that easy. Are there pugs taking longer? absolutely, im 100% sure there have been pugs fall apart, just like some LFRs fall apart. But it is very typical in mine and others experience to join a weekend pug for MC and be in and out in under 90 mins without any communication, world buffs, or consumables.

    And although you dont see it, your own evidence proves it is highly likely, with speed runners clearing it in under 30 minutes, meaning even the fastest casual pugs are taking over twice as long as the speed runners - and considering classes have 1-2 button rotations, so the skill ceiling is almost touching the floor, this seems extremely reasonable to me.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-01-07 at 01:01 AM.

  16. #336
    Bloodsail Admiral Misuteri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Didn't people show up to the APES WF Ony and Rag in greens on Classic?
    Yes, some of them did and some were not even 60.

    However as many have stated MC is almost loot piñata territory. When they cleared at best they had a few people in dungeon sets 2 or 4 pieces. Of course they were fully raid buffed pots/flasks, oils etc. During vanilla most people didn’t even know how to or did that when raiding started but of course tactics were well known as well.

    Mythic/heroic raiding at the beginning of expansions are just about all done in greens and blues, mostly blues of course. MC/Ony doesn’t even come close to that level of difficulty or DPS/healing checks.
    Last edited by Misuteri; 2020-01-07 at 01:00 AM.
    The most persecuted minority is the individual.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not just world buff, you claimed:
    -you going in 30 people
    -No consumables
    -No World buffs
    -Entirely random

    Under the entirety of these factors, a clear in slightly over 60min is anything but the norm.



    Raiding on classic is currently an extremely casual activity, your average guild does that in MC easily.
    But there is a world of difference between a guild which has a structure and some people that have a basic clue of game at its head, than a random pug.

    I don't claim that only hardcore people are able to do this, but entering a MC pug from the trade chat, won't result in a ~60min clear, let alone if they are going with 30 people.

    Let me rephrase that, if you join a guild that does MC, doing MC in something about 60 minutes is nothing special, but that's because guilds are generally run and made up by some people that have a clue about the game.
    Guilds aren't your random pug and that's where i call BS on your claim, because you claimed that any pug does this.



    That's the record currently.
    You're free to check the runs at 40min as well and realize that people use the above described tools there as well.
    Those that are doing the sub 30min runs are just optmized even further in terms of setup and strat.

    The fastest run currently (25:34) for example has 18 Dps Warriors, not exactly a steup that every guild can stem.

    Like, bosses such as Harbinger or Executus die even faster because all adds just get stacked up and blown up via Sapper charges.
    Lol. I would think I am pretty casual Classic player in both sense of the word. Don't play a lot and I'm pretty bad. I have experience at the pointy end of progression on an excellent server but I haven't done hardest content since WoD I think? Priorities change and I prefer dicking around with friends now.

    When I last cleared MC it took 90ish minutes. There was no rushing. No bad body pulls. No wipes. No consumables and half the raid had Ony buff. Every piece of gear was snapped up. I can't say I checked everyone but there was a lot of down time to check other people out. Nothing special. A few epics, a bunch of rates and a green or two was almost universal. I would say that my group was probably an average pug.

    I know I'm bad at Classic. I don't bother with enchants, I skipped dungeon farming for prebis, I spec for farming out in the world, and I don't pay a lot of attention to what I'm doing dps wise. If me and the people I end up playing with aren't your typical PUG players, I don't know what you want. How did we do a 90 min run? MC is fucking easy. I still don't know what the mechanic is for each boss but when it happens to me I know how to deal with it. Why? I play retail and I have seen almost everything. Bomb that needs to be dispelled? Seen it. Interupt heals? Seen it. AOE damage and or knockback? Seen it. Curses? Yawn. Patting mob? Omg so hard. Classic is easy mode.

    I'm going to crush naxx.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Akasha64 View Post
    Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.


    1. mods were not as sophisticated back then
    2. the game concepts were not as complex, the initial raids were tutorials on mechanics.
    3. the game saw substantial nerfs / changes to balance the factions ... see paladin vs shaman issues in BWL vanilla
    4. the raids were larger and loot was distributed across many more people
    5. the spoiler culture / strat farm in alpha/beta / trash balances were muuuuuch different
    6. finally, larger raid sizes meant more people had to coordinate to be viable on any given encounter. encounters were literally "too small to let full raids live" at times, etc.
    7. keying entire raids... minimum gearing entire raids...
    8. waaaaay fewer pathways to upgrades. You could argue PVP gear alone is the largest difference between vanilla and post vanilla raid gears, on top of "token turn in" type mechanics. Basically nothing like that existed in vanilla. you did raids or you got 0 upgrades.


    It just isn't the same game expansion to expansion, just because the clear times were longer doesn't mean the content became any more or less "easy" itself, there were many social factors as well as how the gear worked and self-sustaining worked.


    Vanilla raiding was more similar to mythic raiding in terms of how you had to saturate gear, and the requirements. The main buffer factor is that in every single raid there was some number of literal afk/naked fluff slots due to the inflated raid size. the other balancing factor is that the encounters were simpler but oftentimes much longer as you'd lose dps when learning and that was more or less built in.

    One thing that definitely wasn't really in place immediately at launch was the whole stacking/ideal class thing. I mean, there weren't even consistent damage meters (let alone threat) until midway through raiding as the tools trickled out of the big world-first competing guilds.

    Decursive and auto-heal scripts were borderline required for everyone who wasn't in some sort of military armchair guild.



    People trying to compare expansions via arbitrary garbage like "time to clear raids" when all of those factors aren't considered are pretty silly.


    Another thing to think of is just multiply the number of people playing WoW and in your guild and in your raid by a huge number. Now consider how many of them are basically burning trash and will outwardly cause you to wipe.

    Now multiply that number as everyone needs to learn a thing. And that's where the wipes come from.
    Last edited by frott; 2020-01-07 at 01:19 AM.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by frott View Post
    1. mods were not as sophisticated back then
    2. the game concepts were not as complex, the initial raids were tutorials on mechanics.
    3. the game saw substantial nerfs / changes to balance the factions ... see paladin vs shaman issues in BWL vanilla
    4. the raids were larger and loot was distributed across many more people
    5. the spoiler culture / strat farm in alpha/beta / trash balances were muuuuuch different
    6. finally, larger raid sizes meant more people had to coordinate to be viable on any given encounter. encounters were literally "too small to let full raids live" at times, etc.
    7. keying entire raids... minimum gearing entire raids...
    8. waaaaay fewer pathways to upgrades. You could argue PVP gear alone is the largest difference between vanilla and post vanilla raid gears, on top of "token turn in" type mechanics. Basically nothing like that existed in vanilla. you did raids or you got 0 upgrades.


    It just isn't the same game expansion to expansion, just because the clear times were longer doesn't mean the content became any more or less "easy" itself, there were many social factors as well as how the gear worked and self-sustaining worked.


    Vanilla raiding was more similar to mythic raiding in terms of how you had to saturate gear, and the requirements. The main buffer factor is that in every single raid there was some number of literal afk/naked fluff slots due to the inflated raid size. the other balancing factor is that the encounters were simpler but oftentimes much longer as you'd lose dps when learning and that was more or less built in.

    One thing that definitely wasn't really in place immediately at launch was the whole stacking/ideal class thing. I mean, there weren't even consistent damage meters (let alone threat) until midway through raiding as the tools trickled out of the big world-first competing guilds.

    Decursive and auto-heal scripts were borderline required for everyone who wasn't in some sort of military armchair guild.



    People trying to compare expansions via arbitrary garbage like "time to clear raids" when all of those factors aren't considered are pretty silly.
    About the only thing you said that is correct is that gear was far slower to acquire in vanilla compared to retail. Almost everything else is just plain inaccurate. The very idea that raiding in vanilla was even close to retail mythic is insulting to those of us who raided in vanilla, raid mythic in retail, and raid in classic - there is no comparison at all.

    The fact you casually gloss over the fact that in a 40man raid, numerous players where afk / dead and it had no impact on the outcome of the encounter shows how disingenuous you really are. Can you imagine that in a current mythic progression raid?

    "ok guys, ready to pull, but Hank and Sue are afk, and Brian died to that trash. Actually, we have 2 others AFK, but fuck it, lets just pull, it should be fine"

    The very suggestion these two things are comparable is laughable to anyone who experienced both.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    It is fun watching you jump between "its not possible" to "well, its possible, and normal, but only if its a guild",
    Go through the very first post, i never said it was impossible, i never said casual can't do it.
    I called it BS because you're not clearing MC with your average MC pug.

    You, by the way, also shifted from "no consumables, just 30 people, 100% pug" to "lol no world buffs".

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    i never said ANY / EVERY pug is clearing it 60-90 minutes, i said its the norm - its just that easy.
    And i've made it clear that this isn't the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    and considering classes have 1-2 button rotations, so the skill ceiling is almost touching the floor
    Warriors for example have a bit more quirks that a lot people aren't aware of.
    Case in point, heroic strike messing with the hit chance of your offhand.

    Or Tanks, which basically control your dps, you believe that managing rage as tank is easy, too hard for some people.

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    -snip-
    Want to hear my anecdotal evidence? Here it is.

    Onyxia:
    1.Tanks unable to generate threat properly
    2.Dps pulling aggro in P1 and wiping half the raid with breath
    3.People dying to Deep breath
    4.Wiping because all of the above occurred because Healer Mana is limited

    Other experience out of MC, been in pug raid(s) where i've wiped on Bosses because people were unable to:
    Dispel
    Geddon Bomb
    Keep a mob banished / sheeped
    Not stack up
    Low dps (yeah, screwing up rotation is difficult, but if you don't have any hit (or gear in general sucks), your dps still sucks)

    That's where i said: "fuck it, i need a guild" and that experience was when people didn't have pre Raid BiS, access to DM or simply wiped themselves through MC until enough loot accumulated.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-07 at 01:28 AM.

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