BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[arkanon]

For starters, your perspective on bosses is completely off left field, the fight lengths and boss difficulty is a very small part of classic raids, also using MC as a platform to argue that the rest of classic will be a walkover is like using highmaul or emerald nightmare to gauge the rest of WoD or Legion's difficulty.

Also, the difficulty of classic raids aren't in how hard the bosses are, which I have repeatedly argued without refutation from your end.

Including duration when calculating difficulty of an encounter is "out of left field"? (I'm assuming that's the phrase you were referring to) I consider it a major factor, and i dont consider "it took ages because there was lots of trash" to be an important factor when calculating the difficulty of a raid, as the concentration and intensity of those packs are nothing when compared to the boss fights themselves.

Honestly, if you cant accept that a 30 second zergfest with 2 mechanics and each dps literally standing still and pressing 1 button 80% of the time, and substituting in a second a few times over the 30 seconds is nothing in comparison to modern raiding, then there really is nothing further to discuss. Your argument can be reduced down to "there is lots of trash and it can sometimes take ages getting from boss to boss".

When completing an intense activity that requires very high levels of concentration and communication, duration is a major factor. When comparing mundane and simple tasks, the duration needs to be extreme before it becomes a factor, such as some of FF infamous fights that took (correct me if im wrong) 15-18 HOURS to down. The difficulty there comes from the endurance, and as such, the encounter difficulty (excluding the duration) is extremely low.

Vanilla / Classic is the triple whammy of easy - EXTREMELY short fights coming in at 5-10% of a retail encounter, and extremely simplistic encounter design, AND extremely simplistic class mechanics.

[OriginalName]

Including duration when calculating difficulty of an encounter is "out of left field"? (I'm assuming that's the phrase you were referring to) I consider it a major factor, and i dont consider "it took ages because there was lots of trash" to be an important factor when calculating the difficulty of a raid, as the concentration and intensity of those packs are nothing when compared to the boss fights themselves.

Honestly, if you cant accept that a 30 second zergfest with 2 mechanics and each dps literally standing still and pressing 1 button 80% of the time, and substituting in a second a few times over the 30 seconds is nothing in comparison to modern raiding, then there really is nothing further to discuss. Your argument can be reduced down to "there is lots of trash and it can sometimes take ages getting from boss to boss".

When completing an intense activity that requires very high levels of concentration and communication, duration is a major factor. When comparing mundane and simple tasks, the duration needs to be extreme before it becomes a factor, such as some of FF infamous fights that took (correct me if im wrong) 15-18 HOURS to down. The difficulty there comes from the endurance, and as such, the encounter difficulty (excluding the duration) is extremely low.

Vanilla / Classic is the triple whammy of easy - EXTREMELY short fights coming in at 5-10% of a retail encounter, and extremely simplistic encounter design, AND extremely simplistic class mechanics.

Again you're focusing on things that, are not in the sphere of concern for anyone looking to farm or progress in Naxxramas, just because you don't understand how classic raiding works and are focusing on the wrong things doesn't mean that these things are important or impactful.

You will have to spend upward to 100g/raid just to clear Naxx in protection pots, irrelevant of how few mechanics the bosses have. If your casual guild is entering Naxx with your perspective i.e "just walk over shit", then no they won't have an easy time in Naxx.

Where are you getting the authority to talk about it anyway, link us your logs, legacyplayers or w/e

in conclusion: no one but retail tourists care about bosses

[munkeyinorbit]

Your approach to classic raiding is incredibly shortsighted, ofcourse you will clear the raid, anyone can clear any classic raid. Will your members want to be clearing bwl exclusively for items that are worse than mc pieces?

Or when AQ is out, how are you gonna find the time to get ZG, MC, BWL done in the same week? You're gonna hemorrhage members, because you guys aren't approaching classic raiding with any forethought.

My point was never, you can't clear x content, because you will, you just won't be able to do anything else with your allotted and limited raid time because you guys decided to be super casual, not make a business of using consumables, recruiting slackers and hybrids.

Cleared in 90 mins this week. We will be clearing both in 90 mins after 1 month of bwl. I wonder what we going to do with the other 90?

[arkanon]

in conclusion: I dont care about bosses, and anyone who does is wrong

I fixed that for you. What gives you the authority to speak on behalf of every classic player in the world?

[munkeyinorbit]

Again you're focusing on things that, are not in the sphere of concern for anyone looking to farm or progress in Naxxramas, just because you don't understand how classic raiding works and are focusing on the wrong things doesn't mean that these things are important or impactful.

You will have to spend upward to 100g/raid just to clear Naxx in protection pots, irrelevant of how few mechanics the bosses have. If your casual guild is entering Naxx with your perspective i.e "just walk over shit", then no they won't have an easy time in Naxx.

Where are you getting the authority to talk about it anyway, link us your logs, legacyplayers or w/e

in conclusion: no one but retail tourists care about bosses

As a someone who actually played in vanilla, I can't wait to post logs of my trash pulls and claim server first for killing the gargoyle. I'm gonna make sure we all pot for that. Gotta make sure it dies. We will prob flask for the double gargoyle.

Or maybe me and the 31 other people I am with will prob just stroll on in, spend 5g on some hp pots and kill a few bosses.

Ive done KJ on LFR. I am more than prepared for Classic Naxx.

[chronia]

They're mechanically hard, logistically they have nothing on any Classic endgame activities.

Don't know about this, when you see what top Mythic do in terms of logistics its pretty crazy. 8-9 alts per player, all decked out in the best gear, with the best consumables. Writing addons / wa's. organising the optimal comps for splitraids. Guilds even have their own dataminers.

I really wouldn't be surprised if guilds like Method, Limit and the likes have way more logistics than lets say a guild like Apes. All are very impressive guilds in their respective games, but i really doubt that retail guilds put in less effort when preparing for content.

[OriginalName]

I fixed that for you. What gives you the authority to speak on behalf of every classic player in the world?

I'm not, i'm just telling you how it is, only casuals care about bossfights, every good classic guild will focus on other things like, smoothing out runs, minimizing deaths, speeding up the raid. This is because good classic guilds know that the kills don't matter, only the amount of time you spend in the raid matters.

Don't know about this, when you see what top Mythic do in terms of logistics its pretty crazy. 8-9 alts per player, all decked out in the best gear, with the best consumables. Writing addons / wa's. organising the optimal comps for splitraids. Guilds even have their own dataminers.

I really wouldn't be surprised if guilds like Method, Limit and the likes have way more logistics than lets say a guild like Apes. All are very impressive guilds in their respective games, but i really doubt that retail guilds put in less effort when preparing for content.

Probably true, but that's because in retail raiding, there's a degree of uncertainty on what classes will be best, on what fights, what comps etc.

I don't think method would bother with their 8+ alts per player if they knew in advance that warriors & priests are the best things ever.

Classic doesn't have this, because there is no confusion or need to theorycraft comps in any circumstance.

[Elias01]

Yes, that's how you improve at things. You "learn it" LOL. Honestly, you couldn't make this shit up. I tend not to take advice on subjects like this from someone who uses the phrase "Unless you was very young", and while on that topic, IQ does not measurably begin to decay until 70, so for anything you are saying to hold any truth, the player would have been 60+ in 2004 for their "decaying IQ" to have any impact at all. Do you consider 60 to be "very young"? or do you just have absolutely no clue about the things you talk about?

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Well, except that Vanilla / Classic raids float around LFR difficulty, never getting even CLOSE to the harder normal mode bosses, let alone heroic. This kind of rubbish is what tarnishes the rest of us classic players who completely accept that raiding in vanilla was and is the easiest raid content ever in wow.

As to the rest of your typically biased and dishonest post, ALL content is optional, so that's your entire argument squashed. But when comparing difficulty, you compare like for like - Hardest content in Vanilla Vs Hardest content in Retail. It isnt a difficult concept to grasp, and the only ones who try to compare anything else are the blind classic fanbois, unable to accept how easy the content was, and still is.

No it doesnt becouse classic raids doesnt have button and interface menu where you can ignore all problems coming from 40 man raid? If classic would have LFR for MC nobady would manage to kill any boss. Classic raids are definitly harder than bfa LFR and even normal. Those bosses might have more mechanics but there is 0 preparation and most of those mechanics can be completly ignored.

- - - Updated - - -

And you are so wound up you called the trash adds. And I have not mentioned private servers, because there is no need to - vanilla existed, and MC has shown, without a doubt, that classic is set at vanilla difficulty, not some inflated PS bullshit. Your incredibly punishing raid will be cleared hours after release, and be on farm week 2. Casuals will do what casuals do - casually stroll through an extremely simple raid without a care in the world.

I look forward to your (and others) excuses then.

Dude most casual classic players never killed single boss in MC. But guess what most casual players clear every single raid tier in BFA. Classic is for casual player harder to clear becouse it has no difficutly levels and easy mods thats why modern game is considered easyer. Mythic on retail is not new content is same content as LFR and casual player by beating game on LFR consider game fininished. Classic do no have short cuts. You dont content or you dont.

[Snackpack]

This is literally fake news lol. Vanilla fanboys ran around for years claiming vanilla pve was super hard. They'd often cite how long it took to kill x boss and then compare it to bosses like mythic KJ and shit.

This is another example of people getting slapped in the face with reality and then trying to backpedal and pretend they never said what they did in the first place.

Either way, gearing isn't "harder" in classic either. I don't care if people enjoy classic - I loved the original game and played it a ton. But the revisionist history from classic players is out of control.

If you wanna press 2 buttons and do no mechanics - be my guest, it's your 15 dollars, just be honest.

But for the record - there is not one aspect of vanilla wow that makes the game hard, not one. Even if you go by time investment (which you guys often do) retail blows vanilla out of the water at the hardcore level.

If you'd like to quote me where I said PVE was harder, I'd be interested in that, as well as quotes from a majority of people.

Yeah and on the other spectrum you had private server players with actual hands of information of how MC was gonna be handled who explained (though overshadowed) that MC is going down first lockout no problem, but everyone kept ignoring them and trying to handwave their explanations of what sort of players the top classic people are.

Exactly. People think "countless people" on a forum is indicative of the WoW playerbase. Even the general consensus in those MC threads is that PVE is a joke in Vanilla/Classic.

[IKT]

Or maybe me and the 31 other people I am with will prob just stroll on in, spend 5g on some hp pots and kill a few bosses.

Ive done KJ on LFR. I am more than prepared for Classic Naxx.

You mean a few bosses of naxx?

Now That I've Cleared Naxxramas, Was It Really That Hard?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMEweKgWHro

[Master Factician]

People REALLY underestimate the power of the updated talent trees, Debuffs to 16 from 8, AND Debuff Priority (Because originally you could push ANY debuff off the target).

So take warriors for example, where Fury was worthless (No Bloodthirst) and Arms couldn't take Impale (Because Deep Wounds would remove good debuffs), and Mortal Strike would eat up a debuff slot anyhow. Tanks also didn't have Shield Slam and Imp Sunder Armor didn't reduce the cost, so threat was REALLY bad.

https://classicwowtalents.appspot.co...lent=1124125_1

Take a look at how bad some of the trees were. And keep in mind you're limited to 8 debuff slots and every debuff you apply removes a debuff from the boss.

And I'm pretty sure there was a gear itemization fix that went into effect before 1.12 as well, so power level spiked from that too.

VANILLA was hard. Classic isn't. NO ONE Thought Classic was going to be hard.

It's really easy to use extremely biased information to draw that conclusion. You do realize there were a tremendous number of changes that nerfed player characters and made the content more difficult as well, right?

Here is a single one of those changes that would have a tremendous upwards impact on caster DPS if it was reverted:

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...y_was_a_thing/



"Spell penetration used to cause negative resistance, which registered in the combat log as bonus damage 'vulnerability bonus'.

It was removed in patch 1.9"

There are dozens upon dozens of changes that nerfed extremely powerful stacking trinkets and buffs as well as other things.

[pinkz]

unauthorized servers have had the classic wow values for awhile, i would not doubt there are classic wow players on them practicing, etc.

the player that got world first 60 with a mage, was interviewed by another streamer/youtuber prior to classic wow. the player said he should be able to hit 60 in 2 days. the player mentioned he had tested his method several times and days prior on a unauthorized server updated and tuned to classic wow, which was obtained from classic wow preload/beta/etc.

[Grimreaper]

Kel Thuzad will be on farm after the first week.

For the relevant guilds, he already has been on farm for 14 years.

[arkanon]

No it doesnt becouse classic raids doesnt have button and interface menu where you can ignore all problems coming from 40 man raid? If classic would have LFR for MC nobady would manage to kill any boss. Classic raids are definitly harder than bfa LFR and even normal. Those bosses might have more mechanics but there is 0 preparation and most of those mechanics can be completly ignored.

First off, 30 completely random pugs are already smashing MC in 60-90 minutes - zero prep, no consumables, no communication, just walking in and completely stomping it. I know, i have been in a few of them on an alt - you know, EXACTLY LIKE LFR. Secondly, this idea that mechanics in normal can be ignored is absolute bullshit, UNLESS you have an entire raid of extremely overgeared players who have already cleared said raid on heroic and mythic multiple times, in which case there are situations later in a tier where certain mechanics can be ignored because A) you can handle the deaths because raid dps is so high (just like in classic now) or B) DPS is so high you can skip entire phases. This is the gearing equivalent of a naxx geared raid team going back to MC, and ignoring mechanics. This idea that mechanics in normal can be completely ignored is bullshit made up by blind classic fanbois who are trying to justify "their" games pathetically easy difficulty.

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Dude most casual classic players never killed single boss in MC. But guess what most casual players clear every single raid tier in BFA. Classic is for casual player harder to clear becouse it has no difficutly levels and easy mods thats why modern game is considered easyer. Mythic on retail is not new content is same content as LFR and casual player by beating game on LFR consider game fininished. Classic do no have short cuts. You dont content or you dont.

"Dude" most casual classic raiders have CLEARED MC multiple times with pugs, most of which dont even have 40 players. Most casual raiders in BFA have cleared LFR, and probably normal as well. But you are confusing casual players with casual raiders. Because Blizzard themselves have stated multiple times that the majority of players dont even complete LFR, let alone any other raiding. And the same is true for Classic i am sure. This is just so misguided and untrue it hurts my brain to read - LFR and Mythic only share one thing, and thats a story/location. Every single encounter is VASTLY different, with entirely new mechanics and phases, and generally, new adds, and sometimes bosses as well.

What you are trying to suggest is that going for a jog one morning makes you EXACTLY the same as an Olympic long distance runner - its the same thing after all, just running. Thats how stupid it sounds, comparing Mythic with LFR and saying "its the same thing" just because that needs to be the case to fit your narrative.

[Trajer]

I wasn't trying to be pretentious but I was trying to explain the context behind the fact that, your guild which clears in 1h45min won't be able to actively clear every classic raid to fulfill your entire rosters' need and/or desire for gear on a casual schedule, since you are content at clearing MC i.e by far the fastest and easiest raid in classic in a long time.

You're wrong though, I know for a fact we will clear every raid in classic without issue. Sure we may go to 2 nights to clear AQ40 and Naxx, but we will clear it all, even on day 1 of Naxx. If we need to do clever pulls or skips of trash in order to clear Naxx in sub 2 hours, then we will. We don't do it now in MC because it's annoying to do and we can just bullshit through the raid each week. Clearing MC in 35 minutes sounds annoying as hell when you can just relax and clear it in 90 minutes, and do 2 splits of Ony in 2 hours total. It would be more feasible to push the content in Naxx in order to get a 1-night clear, but right now, regardless, we are clearing MC in one night.

[arkanon]

You're wrong though, I know for a fact we will clear every raid in classic without issue. Sure we may go to 2 nights to clear AQ40 and Naxx, but we will clear it all, even on day 1 of Naxx. If we need to do clever pulls or skips of trash in order to clear Naxx in sub 2 hours, then we will. We don't do it now in MC because it's annoying to do and we can just bullshit through the raid each week. Clearing MC in 35 minutes sounds annoying as hell when you can just relax and clear it in 90 minutes, and do 2 splits of Ony in 2 hours total. It would be more feasible to push the content in Naxx in order to get a 1-night clear, but right now, regardless, we are clearing MC in one night.

You're talking to a guy who said this just 1 page back "A good guild in Naxxramas is going to set aside atleast 4 hours for the full raid, with probably 1 break". So i wouldnt suggest you can clear it in under HALF the time he claims "good guilds" will require.

[Trajer]

You're talking to a guy who said this just 1 page back "A good guild in Naxxramas is going to set aside atleast 4 hours for the full raid, with probably 1 break". So i wouldnt suggest you can clear it in under HALF the time he claims "good guilds" will require.

Fair, I may be underestimating the time. Either way, the way you were talking sounded like "if you're not clearing MC in 35min you won't clear Naxx in one night." Maybe we won't clear it in 2 hours, but we'll be clearing it in one night for sure.

[arkanon]

Fair, I may be underestimating the time. Either way, the way you were talking sounded like "if you're not clearing MC in 35min you won't clear Naxx in one night." Maybe we won't clear it in 2 hours, but we'll be clearing it in one night for sure.

Oh it wasnt me at all, i have no doubt average raiding guilds will be crushing naxx immediately, the person you are responding to considers Classic raids to be on par with Mythic retail raids, so yeah.

[Schmilblick]

Yes and where is the problem ?

[Trajer]

Oh it wasnt me at all, i have no doubt average raiding guilds will be crushing naxx immediately, the person you are responding to considers Classic raids to be on par with Mythic retail raids, so yeah.

Ohh lol my bad, thought you were him.