1. #2061
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    this isn't a utopia. In the real world, it's either dominate or be dominated.

    If US chose not to intervene in the ME, Russia would intervene and would invade (or systematically change regime to their favor) gulf countries and have the resources to themselves. This would ultimately leads to the downfall of the US.

    The very fact that you think we can live in a utopia is hilarious. trust me I have been fucked on my career soo many times in my life that I always assume the worst because they happen more often than you might think.

    Sure good guys are plenty, but so are bad guys.
    I didn't talk about Utopia. I am talking about the US being the bad dudes, betraying every Western ideal they pretend to uphold. The US is a terrorist nation right now and personally I am re-evaluating if NATO is worth it. Why not let China and Russia buttfuck the US? Since y'all don't give a fuck about Western ideals anyway, you're worth nothing to me. See, this... is how you lose influence.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  2. #2062
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    19,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    And in those 15 years, US was incapable of mounting a land war against the Soviet Union, it wasn’t a threat that kept the peace. Nobody, not even the Soviets wanted to fight a ground war in Europe as their nations were too devastated from the conflict. Britain, Manchester, right here still had visible bomb damage right through to the sixties. And we got off lightly compared to the south and mainland Europe, never mind what the fuck happened on the Eastern Front.

    Demilitarisation began almost as soon as the war ended, troops were sent home, weapons, planes, tanks got scrapped. It was slow at first but there was no need or desire to maintain those WW2 levels of equipment or production because of the Russian threat.

    If the policy of superior firepower meant anything, the post war demilitarisation after both world wars would have never happened.
    Right, which is why the USSR build 35,000 T-54s between 1946 and 1958 and the US built over 21,000 Pattons between 1948 an 1961. To put that into perspective, only a bit more than 10,200 M-1 Abrams MBTs have been built in total. Then there are the tens of thousands of new fighters built by both sides during this period. Yes there was a massive draw down post WWII, but this was followed by a significant build up pre MAD.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  3. #2063
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I think his point was for everyone, including Russia to back off and let the ME...be.
    Precisely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Right, which is why the USSR build 35,000 T-54s between 1946 and 1958 and the US built over 21,000 Pattons between 1948 an 1961. To put that into perspective, only a bit more than 10,200 M-1 Abrams MBTs have been built in total. Then there are the tens of thousands of new fighters built by both sides during this period. Yes there was a massive draw down post WWII, but this was followed by a significant build up pre MAD.
    Yes, that was when the US understood the military to be the weight behind diplomacy. These days, the US thinks diplomacy is how you get an excuse to fuck shit up.

    Put it another way... if this had been the Cuba crisis? Y'all would be toast already.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  4. #2064
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    And in those 15 years, US was incapable of mounting a land war against the Soviet Union, it wasn’t a threat that kept the peace. Nobody, not even the Soviets wanted to fight a ground war in Europe as their nations were too devastated from the conflict. Britain, Manchester, right here still had visible bomb damage right through to the sixties. And we got off lightly compared to the south and mainland Europe, never mind what the fuck happened on the Eastern Front.

    Demilitarisation began almost as soon as the war ended, troops were sent home, weapons, planes, tanks got scrapped. It was slow at first but there was no need or desire to maintain those WW2 levels of equipment or production because of the Russian threat.

    If the policy of superior firepower meant anything, the post war demilitarisation after both world wars would have never happened.
    Regarding "what the fuck happened in the east" and to emphasise it some more just how much the soviets paid for it in blood, the soviets were dealing with demographic stats after the war such as e.g an estimated 60-70% of every male born in the soviet union in 1923 being dead by 1946.

    No one in their right mind would have been howling for another major war with entire generations like that nearly being destroyed, and it still being fresh in memory.

  5. #2065
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    19,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Precisely.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, that was when the US understood the military to be the weight behind diplomacy. These days, the US thinks diplomacy is how you get an excuse to fuck shit up.

    Put it another way... if this had been the Cuba crisis? Y'all would be toast already.
    No, that was when the US understood that diplomacy could not rest on military power alone.

    The Cuban Missile Crisis was heavily in the US' favor. We already had missiles that could hit the USSR based in Europe while the USSR could only hit Europe.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  6. #2066
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    No, that was when the US understood that diplomacy could not rest on military power alone.

    The Cuban Missile Crisis was heavily in the US' favor. We already had missiles that could hit the USSR based in Europe while the USSR could only hit Europe.
    That's literally what I was saying. Are you just repeating me out of spite now? :P
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  7. #2067
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,238
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Right, which is why the USSR build 35,000 T-54s between 1946 and 1958 and the US built over 21,000 Pattons between 1948 an 1961. To put that into perspective, only a bit more than 10,200 M-1 Abrams MBTs have been built in total. Then there are the tens of thousands of new fighters built by both sides during this period. Yes there was a massive draw down post WWII, but this was followed by a significant build up pre MAD.
    It was logistically impossible for either side to actually mobilise those forces against each other.

  8. #2068
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Nuclear weapons and liquid fuel rockets are WWII tech. In conventional warfare, technology is very important.
    Good thing Iran isn't interested in conventional warfare then.

  9. #2069
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    19,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That's literally what I was saying. Are you just repeating me out of spite now? :P
    You: "Yes, that was when the US understood the military to be the weight behind diplomacy."

    Me: "No, that was when the US understood that diplomacy could not rest on military power alone."

    There is a significant difference those statements.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  10. #2070
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    You: "Yes, that was when the US understood the military to be the weight behind diplomacy."

    Me: "No, that was when the US understood that diplomacy could not rest on military power alone."

    There is a significant difference those statements.
    Ok, I don't really care enough to discuss semantics with Americans. You believe whatever you want.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  11. #2071
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    19,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It was logistically impossible for either side to actually mobilise those forces against each other.
    The US had 3.5 million troops in Europe in 1960, and then there is the rest of NATO to consider. The USSR meanwhile had about 4 million active troops (plus Warsaw Pact forces). These are active units, not mobilization units. The USSR generally had much larger reserve forces of more dubious quality than the West.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Good thing Iran isn't interested in conventional warfare then.
    Because they cant compete....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, I don't really care enough to discuss semantics with Americans. You believe whatever you want.
    Im sorry you place too much emphasis on military strength's impact on successful diplomacy.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  12. #2072
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Im sorry you place too much emphasis on military strength's impact on successful diplomacy.
    I don't, but since you seem to be ignoring what I'm typing, yeah sure.. why not. Whatever you want to believe, mate.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  13. #2073
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    19,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I don't, but since you seem to be ignoring what I'm typing, yeah sure.. why not. Whatever you want to believe, mate.
    You called the military the weight behind diplomacy, its not. It is just a cudgel that can be brought to bare if other things fail and the rewards outweigh the risks. There are multiple weights behind effective diplomacy, and the military is the least effective of them.

    And I am not your mate....
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  14. #2074
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.businessinsider.com/gop-...-strike-2020-1
    Republican Sen. Mike Lee of Utah was furious on Wednesday following a Senate briefing on President Donald Trump's decision to order an airstrike that killed Iran's Maj. Gen. Qassem Soleimani, bringing tensions with Iran to a boiling point.

    Lee told reporters that he "walked into that briefing undecided" on whether to support a War Powers Resolution being pushed by Democratic Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia. The resolution would limit the Trump administration's ability to take further military action against Iran without congressional authorization.

    "That briefing is what changed my mind," Lee said. "I'm now going to support it."

    He went on to call the briefing "probably the worst briefing, at least on a military issue, I've seen in nine years I've been here."


    So again, the Trump administration continues to be incompetent and not be able to sufficiently explain their actions, even to their own party.
    It seems that Democrat Rep Gerry Connolly is pretty much aligned here; House Democrat calls administration's Iran briefing 'sophomoric and utterly unconvincing'

    “Without commenting on content, my reaction to this briefing was it was sophomoric and utterly unconvincing and I believe that more than ever the Congress needs to act to protect that constitutional provisions about war and peace,” Connolly told reporters as he left the briefing.

    “I believe this administration is after the fact trying to piece together a rationale for its action that was impulsive, reckless and put this country's security at risk,” he added.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  15. #2075
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    You called the military the weight behind diplomacy, its not. It is just a cudgel that can be brought to bare if other things fail and the rewards outweigh the risks. There are multiple weights behind effective diplomacy, and the military is the least effective of them.

    And I am not your mate....
    I know, I don't really care, buddy... don't you have an Alexa that will listen to your emotional problems?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It seems that Democrat Rep Gerry Connolly is pretty much aligned here; House Democrat calls administration's Iran briefing 'sophomoric and utterly unconvincing'

    “Without commenting on content, my reaction to this briefing was it was sophomoric and utterly unconvincing and I believe that more than ever the Congress needs to act to protect that constitutional provisions about war and peace,” Connolly told reporters as he left the briefing.

    “I believe this administration is after the fact trying to piece together a rationale for its action that was impulsive, reckless and put this country's security at risk,” he added.
    https://www.businessinsider.de/inter...0-1/?r=US&IR=T

    Rep. representative finds more direct language to describe that briefing. But here's Skroe, justifying the fuck out of it.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  16. #2076
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    19,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I know, I don't really care, buddy... don't you have an Alexa that will listen to your emotional problems?

    - - - Updated - - -



    https://www.businessinsider.de/inter...0-1/?r=US&IR=T

    Rep. representative finds more direct language to describe that briefing. But here's Skroe, justifying the fuck out of it.
    Im not your buddy either, I have standards.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  17. #2077
    Ya...this point;

    Defense Secretary Mark Esper, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, CIA Director Gina Haspel and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Mark Milley were dispatched to brief both the House and Senate on Wednesday amid days of concerns from lawmakers that Trump was on a path to war with Iran, which on Tuesday night launched missiles at Iraqi bases housing U.S. troops.

    Lee said the officials warned that Congress would "embolden" Iran if lawmakers debated Trump's war powers.

    Paul added that he found the briefing "less than satisfying" and knocked the administration for using the 2002 war authorization as the basis for last week's airstrike against an Iranian general.

    "I see no way in the world you could logically argue that an authorization to have war with Saddam Hussein has anything to with having war with people currently in Iraq," Paul told reporters.

    He added that using the 2002 authorization to justify the strike that killed Gen. Qassem Soleimani in Baghdad was "absurd" and an "insult."

    "Let's have the debate, and let's have some senators stand up," Paul said.

    The briefing comes as the House is set to vote on a resolution on Thursday that would force Trump to end hostilities against Iran unless he gets specific authorization from Congress.


    ----------------------

    Escalation forthcoming?
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  18. #2078
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Im not your buddy either, I have standards.
    Whatever makes you happy. Please don't bomb me.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    “It’s majoritarian, the majority wins, it’s ruled by the majority for the majority – sod the minority. Whereas true democracy includes everybody’s opinion in society,” - Margaret Georgiadou, 2019 about Brexit referendum.
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  19. #2079
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    19,302
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Whatever makes you happy. Please don't bomb me.
    Why would i waste the money on something like that?
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  20. #2080
    Herald of the Titans bladeXcrasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    North Korea is launching nukes on commodore 64 level computers, age is kind of irrelevant in a lot of ways.
    In 1999 the USA was launching nukes with a 1950s banking computer. You're statement is 100% accurate.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •