1. #2161
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Russia, and the US, have agents and proxies working everywhere in the world.

    There's like a gazillion reasons why Russia would do this. Still, I don't think it's the likely explanation. Iranian accident is the most likely one. But dismissing the possiblity of Russians shooting it down is extremely naive.
    Iran is a Russian ally, and the missiles allegedly used were sold to Iran by Russia. What does Russia gain from this? This only stands to put Iran in a bad place, and does nothing to their actual adversaries beyond potentially enrage them.

  2. #2162
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Iran is a Russian ally, and the missiles allegedly used were sold to Iran by Russia. What does Russia gain from this? This only stands to put Iran in a bad place, and does nothing to their actual adversaries beyond potentially enrage them.
    Really....? You need to think outside the box a bit.

    I'll just list a few possible reasons what Russia could have to gain from this:

    1. Causing the attack to make US retaliate and start a war against Iran.
    2. Iranian alliance to Russia is of secondary value compared to the importance of hurting the US.
    3. War is business. Selling more weapons to Iran.
    4. Weaker Iran - more obedient puppet, more Russian influence in the region.
    5. The plane was Ukrainian. Knowing the actual passenger manifests is a bit out of their reach considering the short notice and window of opportunity, but they surely would know the plane is Ukrainian.

    And of course the actual shooters wouldn't be Sergei and Igor with their BUK shooting down the plane in the middle of Tehran, but their Iranian proxies/mercenaries/whatever - brown men with beards and on Putin's payroll.
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  3. #2163
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Russia, and the US, have agents and proxies working everywhere in the world.

    There's like a gazillion reasons why Russia would do this. Still, I don't think it's the likely explanation. Iranian accident is the most likely one. But dismissing the possiblity of Russians shooting it down is extremely naive.

    EDIT: In fact, the video of the rocket hitting the plane is very questionable. Why is the guy out there filming the sky in the right direction at the right time and very close to the plane? One could say it indicates he had a prior knowledge of such a rocket being fired...
    No, dismissing the idea of the Russians shooting it down is what a normal and sane person would do. Yes, Russia has agents everywhere. Those Agents are not armed with mid-sized surface to air missiles. Shooting down a civilian airliner over Iranian territory is insane, Russia is trying to build a relationship with Iran, and humiliating them on the world stage is not a great way of doing it, nor is killing a planeload of their citizens. If Iran found out Russia did this they would go nuts, and Russia's chances of ever getting a foothold in the region would disappear. Russia would have an enormous amount to lose from this, and if they were clumsy enough that random forum posters on the internet could guess it, so could Iranian intelligence.

    Russia has no reason to randomly murder a planeload of Iranian citizens. Neither does the US. Neither does Iran. This was not an intentional act, this is an accident involving a weapon and an airliner that was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, Iran should have handled their civilian air traffic better. Yes, Iran should have handled their Air Defense systems better. No, Iran did not plan this. Hindsight is 20/20, and it is always easy to point out failures after something terrible has happened. The truth of the matter is that humans are deeply fallible creatures and they make mistakes, and some mistakes have big consequences. This is a known fact, and we don't have to rely on crazy theories of Russian false flag operations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Really....? You need to think outside the box a bit.

    I'll just list a few possible reasons what Russia could have to gain from this:

    1. Causing the attack to make US retaliate and start a war against Iran.
    2. Iranian alliance to Russia is of secondary value compared to the importance of hurting the US.
    3. War is business. Selling more weapons to Iran.
    4. Weaker Iran - more obedient puppet, more Russian influence in the region.
    5. The plane was Ukrainian. Knowing the actual passenger manifests is a bit out of their reach considering the short notice and window of opportunity, but they surely would know the plane is Ukrainian.

    And of course the actual shooters wouldn't be Sergei and Igor with their BUK shooting down the plane in the middle of Tehran, but their Iranian proxies/mercenaries/whatever - brown men with beards and on Putin's payroll.
    Ok, in order..

    1) WTF would the US Retaliate against Iran killing Iranians by accident?
    2) How does this hurt the US exactly?
    3) How does this want Iran to buy MORE Russian missiles, when these ones just destroyed the wrong target? Seems like they would want to buy radar that can tell the difference between a B-1B and a 737.
    4) Ok, Iran is not a puppet, this doesn't make them weaker, and it certainly doesn't make them more obedient.
    5) Come on, Russia doesn't go around killing anything Ukrainian.

    All of this also doesn't cover the extreme risk to Russia if their little plot is uncovered. If someone found out it was Russia, then literally everyone is going to be PISSED. Canada, Sweden, and the Ukraine are going to be very mad you killed their citizens. Iran is going to be furious you killed their citizens AND framed them, and the US is going to be pissed because... well the US isn't going to miss a chance to get pissed at Russia for murdering people.
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  4. #2164
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    1. Causing the attack to make US retaliate and start a war against Iran.
    No US citizens on the jet. That's not particularly difficult information to get, and Russia would have known the passenger list if they were interested.

    So, nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    2. Iranian alliance to Russia is of secondary value compared to the importance of hurting the US.
    See above, this doesn't hurt the US. Also, Iran has considerable strategic importance to Russia, including controlling the Straight of Hormuz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    3. War is business. Selling more weapons to Iran.
    Again, see above. What war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    4. Weaker Iran - more obedient puppet, more Russian influence in the region.
    The opposite of their goals. They don't want Russian troops in the region, they already learned their lesson from Afghanistan. They're better served with a stronger Iran, who will remain considerably weaker than Russia, exerting influence in the region.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    5. The plane was Ukrainian. Knowing the actual passenger manifests is a bit out of their reach considering the short notice and window of opportunity, but they surely would know the plane is Ukrainian.
    As stated above, not a reach at all. But what do they get out of downing a Ukrainian jet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    but their Iranian proxies/mercenaries/whatever - brown men with beards and on Putin's payroll.
    If this was the case, I imagine Iran would be hot to sling the blame on Russia rather than take the international pressure at the moment. It would make them even more sympathetic.

  5. #2165
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    1) WTF would the US Retaliate against Iran killing Iranians by accident?
    Because Russians didn't know the plane was full of Iranians.

    2) How does this hurt the US exactly?
    Spice up the conflict to evolve into a war. A war with Iran would be catastrophic for the US.
    3) How does this want Iran to buy MORE Russian missiles, when these ones just destroyed the wrong target? Seems like they would want to buy radar that can tell the difference between a B-1B and a 737.
    What do you mean wrong target? Iran (the government) would of course know they didn't shoot it down, but some other Iranians did. There are different underground factions in Iran, too. Supported and supplied by foreign states. Just like everywhere, business as usual in geopolitics.
    4) Ok, Iran is not a puppet, this doesn't make them weaker, and it certainly doesn't make them more obedient.
    Yes they are a "puppet". They are very reliant on Russian goods, resources and weaponry.
    5) Come on, Russia doesn't go around killing anything Ukrainian.
    Excuse me? You know they have been fighting a proxy war in Ukraine for 5 years?

    All of this also doesn't cover the extreme risk to Russia if their little plot is uncovered. If someone found out it was Russia, then literally everyone is going to be PISSED. Canada, Sweden, and the Ukraine are going to be very mad you killed their citizens. Iran is going to be furious you killed their citizens AND framed them, and the US is going to be pissed because... well the US isn't going to miss a chance to get pissed at Russia for murdering people.
    Extreme risk? Russia was uncovered to having been shooting down MH17. Pretty much nothing happened to Russia. US and the whole Europe basically just waved their fingers and said "naughty Russia" and applied mild economic sanctions.
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  6. #2166
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Because Russians didn't know the plane was full of Iranians.


    Spice up the conflict to evolve into a war. A war with Iran would be catastrophic for the US.

    What do you mean wrong target? Iran (the government) would of course know they didn't shoot it down, but some other Iranians did. There are different underground factions in Iran, too. Supported and supplied by foreign states. Just like everywhere, business as usual in geopolitics.

    Yes they are a "puppet". They are very reliant on Russian goods, resources and weaponry.

    Excuse me? You know they have been fighting a proxy war in Ukraine for 5 years?


    Extreme risk? Russia was uncovered to having been shooting down MH17. Pretty much nothing happened to Russia. US and the whole Europe basically just waved their fingers and said "naughty Russia" and applied mild economic sanctions.
    Ok... yeah, I am done with this crazy conspiracy.

    So your theory is that Russia went through all the trouble to shoot down one specific airliner in Iran, but couldn't be bothered to figure out who was on it. The Russians couldn't figure out that a plane leaving from IRAN was full of IRANIANs. That is some next level intelligence failure right there.

    An easy way to spot a conspiracy theory is to ask if it involves some organization simultaneously acting extremely competent and incompetent at the same time.
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  7. #2167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Really....? You need to think outside the box a bit.

    I'll just list a few possible reasons what Russia could have to gain from this:

    1. Causing the attack to make US retaliate and start a war against Iran.
    No, because a US/Iran war would result in the US taking over Iran an putting in it's own government, and the last thing Russia want's is a proxy US state 100 miles from its border.

    2. Iranian alliance to Russia is of secondary value compared to the importance of hurting the US.
    No, it isn't, see above.

    3. War is business. Selling more weapons to Iran.
    They wouldn't be able to sell Iran weapons while they were at war with the USA. Not to mention Iran doesn't buy many weapons from them anyway because all the time they spent reverse engineering their US equipment so they could maintain/rearm it has given Iran a pretty decent weapons industry, generally speaking they are a bad customer as they only buy a handful of things then clone them in house.

    4. Weaker Iran - more obedient puppet, more Russian influence in the region.
    Getting roflstomped by America would weaken Iran yes, but Iran becoming a puppet US state like post Saddam Iraq did would weaken Russian influence in the region.

    5. The plane was Ukrainian. Knowing the actual passenger manifests is a bit out of their reach considering the short notice and window of opportunity, but they surely would know the plane is Ukrainian.
    It's not like passenger manifests are made available to international law enforcement or anything >.>

    And of course the actual shooters wouldn't be Sergei and Igor with their BUK shooting down the plane in the middle of Tehran, but their Iranian proxies/mercenaries/whatever - brown men with beards and on Putin's payroll.
    Except it wasn't proxies/mercs/militia/whatever that reportedly shot it down, it was the Iranian Air Defence Force, a branch of the army.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Russia was uncovered to having been shooting down MH17. Pretty much nothing happened to Russia. US and the whole Europe basically just waved their fingers and said "naughty Russia" and applied mild economic sanctions.
    That's because the pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine that shot it down aren't actually Russian they're Ukrainian rebels (that's the very thing they're rebelling about, they want to join Russia).
    Damn that's some next level tinfoil **** lol >.>
    Last edited by caervek; 2020-01-10 at 12:55 AM.

  8. #2168
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    No US citizens on the jet. That's not particularly difficult information to get, and Russia would have known the passenger list if they were interested.
    You sure they would just get it instantly? The window of opportunity opened pretty fast when Iran decided to let civilian planes fly there. I would like to know what other, if any, planes were departing from the Tehran airport before and after the Ukrainian one.


    The opposite of their goals. They don't want Russian troops in the region, they already learned their lesson from Afghanistan. They're better served with a stronger Iran, who will remain considerably weaker than Russia, exerting influence in the region.
    Nah, obviously not many Russian troops would ever go there. Proxy wars are great, they are often very profitable.


    As stated above, not a reach at all. But what do they get out of downing a Ukrainian jet?
    Hurt Ukraine, USA and Iran. Win-win-win.


    If this was the case, I imagine Iran would be hot to sling the blame on Russia rather than take the international pressure at the moment. It would make them even more sympathetic.
    Only if they knew it was Russia and could prove it. What would be even worse than taking the blame for it themselves? - The fact that some other Iranians did it. That would make them look weak and divided.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Ok... yeah, I am done with this crazy conspiracy.

    So your theory is that Russia went through all the trouble to shoot down one specific airliner in Iran, but couldn't be bothered to figure out who was on it. The Russians couldn't figure out that a plane leaving from IRAN was full of IRANIANs. That is some next level intelligence failure right there.

    An easy way to spot a conspiracy theory is to ask if it involves some organization simultaneously acting extremely competent and incompetent at the same time.
    It's not my theory or something I believe happened as I already mentioned two or three times. I was just pointing out very plausible reasons why Russia could have shot down the plane. You know you can think and discuss other options as well as your own view on things.
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  9. #2169
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    You sure they would just get it instantly? The window of opportunity opened pretty fast when Iran decided to let civilian planes fly there. I would like to know what other, if any, planes were departing from the Tehran airport before and after the Ukrainian one.
    It's not super difficult to find out who's on a plane. And as far as I know, planes were still taking off from the Tehran airport, this wasn't some "one-off" or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Nah, obviously not many Russian troops would ever go there. Proxy wars are great, they are often very profitable.
    Do you have evidence of significant Russian troop presence in Iran in an unofficial capacity like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Hurt Ukraine, USA and Iran. Win-win-win.
    You have yet to establish how this "hurts the US". This hurts Iran, and Iran only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Only if they knew it was Russia and could prove it. What would be even worse than taking the blame for it themselves? - The fact that some other Iranians did it. That would make them look weak and divided.
    Again, what does Russia gain from this? How do they benefit from international, and domestic, anger at the Iranian government?

    You're kinda going a bit space cadet with this dude. These are some Mr. Fantastic style reaches.

  10. #2170
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Damn that's some next level tinfoil **** lol >.>
    There are a lot of US proxy states on Russian border already, Iran wouldn't make a difference in that regard.

    The US will eventually leave Iraq, and Iran, and then a weak state is up for grabs.

    Iran wouldn't get roflstomped, it would be a long and costly war for the US.

    Getting passenger manifests the legal way would blow Russia's cover. They would need to hack the airline's database to get the passenger lists in that timeframe.

    Where is the proof of Iranian Air Defence Force shooting it down? For now, it wasn't reportedly shot down by anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's not super difficult to find out who's on a plane. And as far as I know, planes were still taking off from the Tehran airport, this wasn't some "one-off" or anything.
    It is difficult if you need to know in ~minutes.

    Also if other planes were coming and going, this is even more suspicious. Why was the Ukrainian plane shot down if there were many planes flying there. And why would it be accidentally shot down if the people saw there were civilian planes coming and going all the time?

    Do you have evidence of significant Russian troop presence in Iran in an unofficial capacity like this?
    Russian troops? I just said proxy forces. They are Iranian. Brown people. Beards.

    You have yet to establish how this "hurts the US". This hurts Iran, and Iran only.
    .........how many times do I need to say "war"? And no, you just saying "no" doesn't dismiss that possibility.

    Again, what does Russia gain from this? How do they benefit from international, and domestic, anger at the Iranian government?

    You're kinda going a bit space cadet with this dude. These are some Mr. Fantastic style reaches.
    No, you are just being deliberately obtuse. War is what Russia could gain from this. US-Iran war or Iranian civil war. Any war in Iran is profitable for Russia. Occam's razor works here, too. IF the plane wasn't shot down by accident, who would have most to gain from shooting down the plane? Russia.
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  11. #2171
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    There are a lot of US proxy states on Russian border already, Iran wouldn't make a difference in that regard.
    Which states on the Russian border are US proxy states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    The US will eventually leave Iraq, and Iran, and then a weak state is up for grabs.
    The US isn't in Iran, and Iran and Iraq have had closer ties as of late. Neither is necessarily "up for grabs" in the slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Iran wouldn't get roflstomped, it would be a long and costly war for the US.
    Iran cannot compete against the US military, especially if they don't get military backing from Russia. They would be crushed, and similar to Iraq/Afghanistan that would be the easiest part of the war. The hardest part would be picking up the pieces afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Getting passenger manifests the legal way would blow Russia's cover. They would need to hack the airline's database to get the passenger lists in that timeframe.
    ...and? Because Russia doesn't have an extensive hacking arm that's intruding into all kinds of private/government systems? You realize this just makes it less likely that Russia is behind this, right? It's absolutely possible, and if they were behind the strike they'd have checked to make sure they were hitting the right target to achieve their goals. Because this target achieves nothing for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Where is the proof of Iranian Air Defence Force shooting it down? For now, it wasn't reportedly shot down by anything.
    It came from within Iranian territory by the looks of things, and these were missiles owned by the Iranian military. All evidence points to that, and nothing points to Russia. You're literally grasping at straws to make your argument work, and you're not actually grabbing ahold of any of them.

  12. #2172
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Which states on the Russian border are US proxy states?
    Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Georgia, Turkey......? You know, all NATO states.

    Georgia not a full member yet though.
    Last edited by Puupi; 2020-01-10 at 01:18 AM.
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  13. #2173
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Also if other planes were coming and going, this is even more suspicious. Why was the Ukrainian plane shot down if there were many planes flying there. And why would it be accidentally shot down if the people saw there were civilian planes coming and going all the time?
    Because someone fucked up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Russian troops? I just said proxy forces. They are Iranian. Brown people. Beards.
    Who? I'm unaware of any Russian backed Iranian militias in Iran that would have beef with the government in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    .........how many times do I need to say "war"? And no, you just saying "no" doesn't dismiss that possibility.
    Again. There. Would. Be. No. War. There. Were. No. Americans. On. That. Plane. Russia isn't going to blindly shoot down a passenger plane hoping there are Americans on board.

    And Congress would have to authorize said war, were it official, and that ain't happenin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    War is what Russia could gain from this.
    Was was not, and hasn't been, realistically on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    US-Iran war or Iranian civil war.
    What does an Iranian civil war get them? Higher oil prices maybe, but also tons of other headaches. A civil war in Iran is one of the worst ways to boost oil prices, there are infinitely better, easier, more predictable, and more controllable ways to achieve this goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    IF the plane wasn't shot down by accident, who would have most to gain from shooting down the plane? Russia.
    They wouldn't, because they still gain little to nothing out of this.

    You seem to think the US was on the brink of war. We weren't, unless Iran significantly escalated attacks against US forces, which they did not, and even then it wasn't likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Georgia, Turkey......? You know, all NATO states.
    Allies =|= proxies, dude. Are you for real?

  14. #2174
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Iran cannot compete against the US military, especially if they don't get military backing from Russia. They would be crushed, and similar to Iraq/Afghanistan that would be the easiest part of the war. The hardest part would be picking up the pieces afterwards.
    Iran isn't Iraq or Afghanistan. They would be crushed, yes, but with a higher cost to the US, a lot higher.



    ...and? Because Russia doesn't have an extensive hacking arm that's intruding into all kinds of private/government systems? You realize this just makes it less likely that Russia is behind this, right? It's absolutely possible, and if they were behind the strike they'd have checked to make sure they were hitting the right target to achieve their goals. Because this target achieves nothing for them.
    It could have been a high gamble, like operations always are. Killing Suleimani was a high gamble. Iranian retaliation was a high gamble. Russian gamble on the Ukrainian airplane wouldn't have been any different risk-wise. Or let me take that back, actually less of a risk, because nobody might find out it was you so there is lower risk than in the aforementioned operations.



    It came from within Iranian territory by the looks of things, and these were missiles owned by the Iranian military. All evidence points to that, and nothing points to Russia. You're literally grasping at straws to make your argument work, and you're not actually grabbing ahold of any of them.
    Of course it came from within Iranian territory, but what does that have to do with this? The proxy forces are obviously inside Iran, that's why they are called proxy forces. Just like the ones Suleimani commanded in Iraq, the Iranian proxy forces. Shooting rockets at US bases dozens of times. That's how proxy forces work. All the missiles in Iran are Russian so what kind of argument is that towards one point or another? Iranians, Iranian proxies, Russians, Russian proxies - they all use Russian missiles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Allies =|= proxies, dude. Are you for real?
    Allies are proxies. Are you mixing up proxy and puppet?

    I gotta go to bed now, good night.
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  15. #2175
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    Good riddance!

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  16. #2176
    https://apnews.com/fbb2985489bcc74e0e9c728ca7ce009a

    President Donald Trump used his first campaign election rally of 2020 to argue that he served up “American justice” by ordering a drone strike to take out Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani, while jeering Democratic leaders for questioning his decision to carry out the attack without first consulting Congress.

    ...

    “We got a call. We heard where he was. He knew the way he was getting there,” Trump told cheering supporters in Toledo. “We didn’t have time to call up Nancy, who isn’t operating with a full deck.”

    They want us to tell them so they can leak it to their friends in the corrupt media,” Trump added.
    Not much going on. Just Trump further sewing division and bragging about how amazing he is to the cheers of his followers.

  17. #2177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqur View Post
    Don't know if this was posted, but for all of you defending a terrorist, here are the facts from the first hand.
    [video=youtube_share;1C888mSyD7s]https://youtu.be/1C888mSyD7s[/vieo]
    Enjoy.
    People link to any video on the internet as a 'gotcha' in 2020, huh?

  18. #2178
    Quote Originally Posted by starlord View Post
    they seem to be thirsting for iraq 2 electric boogaloo so that makes sense.
    This would be Iraq 3 at this point, since we have Desert Storm in the early 90s, and Iraqi Freedom now that is still going on.

  19. #2179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I got your point but I don't think you got mine the same international laws that protect people like him protect our diplomats, heads of states and US personnel overseas. There are a lot of horrible people in the world most of which we are friends with Mohammed Bonesawlmin is as much of a monster as him but we don't assassinate him. There's no moral high ground to nations just risks versus rewards in this case the risks outweigh the reward. We may look at this move as the point where the US lost any ground in the middle east because 80% of the fight is PR and this is really bad middle east PR.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't think you get my point conventional war is the first punch in a 100 round boxing match it doesn't determine who wins the encounter. Back in the old days where armies faced each other and this was the end of it that's when conventional warfare was the last word now it's not.
    Uh, hate to break it to you, but resistance fighters have been around for a hell of a lot longer than you are giving them credit for. The term "guerrilla" warfare dates to the Spanish peasants' uprising against Napoleon's occupation.
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  20. #2180
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    I guess this whole string of incidents is on heavy rotation on local news now because I've had a lot of people who normally don't talk about politics/world events bring it up.

    I live in an area where the top 10 US defense contractors have multiple campuses. Most people work for on of the contractors, know someone who does, works for a business that works with them, etc. Long story short, people understand the game. I haven't met a single person in real who was happy about the assassination. I feel like I have to write a disclaimer that not being happy with it means you think the guy was a nice guy or anything like that. The people fully understand the chain of events that transpire when something like that goes down. An area full of defense contractors means everyone is tied to the military in some way. Duty is duty, but damn if people aren't tired of conflicts that seem to worth it or things escalating further, faster than they needed to be by suits who really only care about their legacy.

    40% of me still thinks Iran needs some of its equipment taken out as a lesson. 60% of me is just hoping for a reset.

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