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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    There's not really any evidence to support that N'zoth is stronger than what we fought though (outside of in-game mechanics like our level being higher, etc).

    The only thing we know for a fact is that N'zoth was the weakest in terms of physical strength. In terms of actual strength, his physical form in combat may be stronger, weaker, or similar in strength to the fragmented power of C'thun or Yogg-Saron that we fought; there's no factual evidence to support the theory that a fully unleashed N'zoth is stronger than the other two's weakened forms.

    N'zoth had massive buildup and will be the last boss in an expansion, just like many bosses before him like Garrosh, the Lich King, and Deathwing. Be glad that we got a solid end boss for the expansion as opposed to an ass-pull final boss like Archimonde who just randomly was summoned onto Draenor instead of a Gul'dan fight or Argus who was invented out of nowhere last expansion despite there being zero lore around him and Sargeras randomly finding a sleeping Titan that is never mentioned in Chronicle or through the entire expansion in any way while casually looking for some lieutenants for his army.

    I'd much rather deal with N'zoth after him having plenty of buildup for multiple expansions (including this one with Uldir, Crucible of Storms, Xala'tath quests) than another random nobody that doesn't matter and then having to wait for another 2 expansions for a proper N'zoth fight and in the meantime killing random nobodies in his place. What, we kill Sylvanas as a raid boss for 8.3? Then we have Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0 like people complained it was looking like all expansion and people are pissed. What other options are there? You can't use Azshara again so soon after just having Eternal Palace, bringing in the caged Sargeras makes no sense, having a revenge city raid on Stormwind for Dazar'alor doesn't really make sense (aside from the fact that Teldrassil is smores central already), so the only options were either piss everyone off with SoO 2.0 after promising that wasn't it all expansion, N'zoth, or an ass-pull nobody boss which is how they ended last expansion and people were pissed.

    Another thing I'd like to point out is that having an entire expansion for N'zoth is realistically going against his own lore. He's supposed to be cunning and deceptive, which we can all agree on I think. If that's the case and he's had tens of thousands of years to plot and scheme and prepare for his release and is basically playing 5D chess around our brains, how much sense does it make that he'd sit on his laurels and casually have like 2 or 3 raid patches before him where his plans are just catastrophically failing left and right? One of the most intelligent and cunning enemies we've ever had to deal with suddenly becomes a complete dimwit and can't manage to string together a victory over the course of multiple patches and raid events? That goes against everything that we know about N'zoth; him moving forward with his plans immediately upon release in an attempt to catch Azeroth unaware makes much more sense. So unless that expansion was based around bringing back the other Old Gods and having them as the precursor raid bosses (which makes no sense since they were all vying for supremacy originally), having N'zoth as an expansion finale for his own expansion just doesn't make much sense. And if that were the case, it'd be Legion all over again where we'd all be sick of the same exact aesthetic in pretty much every raid for the entire expansion, which people are still complaining about today with the expansion after it nearly wrapped up.

    What it comes down to is Blizzard had 3 realistic options and N'zoth was the lesser of the evils compared to SoO 2.0 and another rando no-name end boss like last expansion.
    No. No, you're just wrong on the first bit. Ignorance towards the lore isn't an argument in and of itself. C'thun and Yogg-Saron were weakened Old Gods, N'zoth is meant to be at nearly if not nearly his full power. Different ball game entirely.

    And by your logic that N'zoth having a full expansion doesn't make sense, a full patch centered around him doesn't make sense either. He's still in the limelight to some degree and in 8.3 he does that through being right in your face after years of scheming. It could've been an entire expansion of him just fine. In fact, BfA was technically almost an entire expansion with him as a part of it. The problem is that it was just uncommitted. He's arguably an influence in Kul Tiras issues, particularly Stormsong and through the Naga, then directly becomes a part of the storyline in 8.1.5. So he has been looming for most of the expansion.

    But the problem is that BfA is nothing but a mishmash of themes, a bunch of costumes it wears because it's self-conscious. It's at the same time a faction war expansion, one that deals with Blood Trolls and their false Old God (should've been the return of Hakkar, really), and some unrelated stuff about the Drust for the Alliance, mainly, which in hindsight I suppose was a set-up for Shadowlands deathy stuff, alongside Bwonsamdi for the Horde. And then it also has Naga and N'zoth. It wears a bunch of skins, some more than others, but all of them relatively poorly, and it burns at least two groups of enthusiasts that I've seen:

    1) War fanatics who felt like there was no real point to the entire war and consider it mostly filler garbage because it didn't do anything worthwhile.
    2) Old God fans who think the same, and feel that a boss in the making since the Cataclysm and arguably before that is reduced to a "move along, focus your hype on the next expansion," patch.

    In some terms, you could even argue that Azshara fans might feel separately gypped, also waiting for years to fight Azshara, only to be tossed at you in one patch with a fairly uninspired zone and raid. (Other than her, is Priscilla the only noteworthy raid boss in her raid?) They probably feel like Azshara got the Archimonde/Kil'jaeden treatment, too. Although it's yet to be seen what her ultimate fate is. But yes, N'zoth and Azshara deserved their own expansion. Possibly even one expansion each, but I feel like if they condensed Argus into Legion out of fear for fatigue, the same is probably logical for Azshara/N'zoth.

    As an aside, 8.1.5 had N'zoth looking like he had some potential interesting interactions with our characters in the future, rather than just popping up and turning into generic targeting dummy screaming threatening stuff at you #151432. I feel like they could've delayed his demise by bringing him to the forefront less quickly. Going into the Shadowlands, it could've been an 'enemy of my enemy' deal, where N'zoth isn't unleashed and isn't an immediate risk, or maybe we don't even know we're being manipulated by N'zoth (Old Gods can use avatars), and we just end up taking out the Jailer or whatever big death entity the Old Gods would likely want to see removed from the board.

    And then N'zoth makes the push to free himself now that an important player is removed from the board and reveals that we unwittingly doing his bidding from the start, even if it was a case where both the player's and N'zoth's interest best aligned.

    Obviously, that's far too late now. They pretty much came out screaming that we were chatting with N'zoth as soon as 8.1.5 so that particular tentacle can't be pushed back inside its box, but there are so much better things they could've done, starting with at least giving him a single open zone that isn't an old zone with purple goo on it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Why do people keep saying "ohh N'zoth is the weakest" asif that makes any of this okay.

    He's the only one that managed to get FREE, shouldn't that count for something? Even if he is weaker than the others they wern't really free like him which is why we were able to take them on in the first place.
    You're right. People who claim that N'zoth is the weakest so he's a smaller deal than Yogg-Saron and C'thun were back in the day are just parroting people who are either misinformed or wilfully disingenuous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dungo View Post
    The amount of people who are unironically defending N'Zoth's dogshit defeat is hilarious, MMO-Champion truly is filled with brainless drones just like everyone says
    Something needs to be released for at least 6 months before it can be complained about and only then may its existence and lack of better alternative be lamented and held up as some mistake made by Blizzard for years to come.

  2. #102
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    I'm not really sure why people are so up in arms over N'Zoth, myself. C'Thun had a bit of lead-up in Silithus (and before if you consider the Silithids to be connected), but he was unveiled and defeated in a single content patch back in 1.9.0. Ditto for Yogg-Saron as well, who got some lead-up in the form of WotLK's leveling content in the Howling Fjord and in Icecrown, but was unveiled and defeated in Ulduar back in 3.1.0. And now we have N'Zoth on our plate, as of 8.3.0 in BfA - with more lead-up but similarly and seemingly dealt with in his own content patch. What's really different for N'Zoth as compared to his two other raid boss brothers?

    I would've loved an Old God-themed expansion built around the mysteries of Ny'alotha myself, but that still would've been the exception as opposed to the rule.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Sounds about right considering Blizzard in the last few years.
    Blizzard has gotten worse at handicapping itself. A finale to an expansion should be something grand, but most end patches in recent times have felt like they were just packing up shop and had some remaining assets to throw around to keep people occupied while they worked on the next BIG THING in the background.

    Who's going to keep coming back for the story set up at the start of an expansion when it gets a shoehorned underdeveloped ending that will be overshadowed and replaced by the next expansion, which in turn will also be shot in the head and hamstringed before its resolution by the expansion after it.

    Don't expect worthwhile conclusions, just consume expansion and then get excited for next expansion.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    N'zoth was marginally the weakest of the old gods. Get your whine right at least.
    That might be right but they've kept this guy for years in the side lines, years made him a figure in the lore and teased him. He's had a lot more focus than most other old gods.

    And what did blizzard do? They did the kamehameha 2.0 version. It went down like a lead ballon for Deathwing and for some idiotic reason they've decided to do it again. I agree with the op, that was disappointing and completely horrendous. They completely butchered it. They could have just about done anything else including bringing Mother and Magni into the fight properly, caused half of azeroth to succumb to the madness before being killed, literally anything. And they decided one repeating one of the most hated encounters + cut scene repeat.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    No, but during that questline, he definitely has the potential to be more than "big scary tentacly raid boss that scares and whispers threatening things to you."
    Not really. Xal'atath? Sure, but not N'zoth.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm not really sure why people are so up in arms over N'Zoth, myself. C'Thun had a bit of lead-up in Silithus (and before if you consider the Silithids to be connected), but he was unveiled and defeated in a single content patch back in 1.9.0. Ditto for Yogg-Saron as well, who got some lead-up in the form of WotLK's leveling content in the Howling Fjord and in Icecrown, but was unveiled and defeated in Ulduar back in 3.1.0. And now we have N'Zoth on our plate, as of 8.3.0 in BfA - with more lead-up but similarly and seemingly dealt with in his own content patch. What's really different for N'Zoth as compared to his two other raid boss brothers?

    I would've loved an Old God-themed expansion built around the mysteries of Ny'alotha myself, but that still would've been the exception as opposed to the rule.
    N'zoth's minion had an entire expansion dedicated to him tearing the world apart.

    N'zoth's also not a weakened Old God like Yogg-Saron or C'thun. Now, don't get me wrong. Those two were definitely also mistreated and not given the due they deserve, but N'zoth is an enemy at least five expansions in the making, since we got his name in Cataclysm. Arguably for longer, since the effects of his scheming were influential since before even that.

    Yet both Azshara and N'zoth unceremoniously get taken out in the course of two patches that are almost back-to-back, barring the little break to bring an end to the similarly underwhelming faction war. An Azerite kamehameha, really? There were so many things that could have been done with N'zoth and this is the least interesting of them. The guy doesn't even have his own zone because most of the attention is focused on Shadowlands. He just has a few Old God assets in old zones.

  7. #107
    WoW's writers have to be careful how they write villains for the sole reason of them ending up as defeatable raid bosses, as every raid boss can't just be defeated and "knocked out" at the end of the encounter like Garrosh in SoO and Azshara in EP.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Not really. Xal'atath? Sure, but not N'zoth.
    I guess N'zoth should've had a beautiful elven form for you to think there was any story potential there.

  9. #109
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    N'zoth's minion had an entire expansion dedicated to him tearing the world apart.

    N'zoth's also not a weakened Old God like Yogg-Saron or C'thun. Now, don't get me wrong. Those two were definitely also mistreated and not given the due they deserve, but N'zoth is an enemy at least five expansions in the making, since we got his name in Cataclysm. Arguably for longer, since the effects of his scheming were influential since before even that.

    Yet both Azshara and N'zoth unceremoniously get taken out in the course of two patches that are almost back-to-back, barring the little break to bring an end to the similarly underwhelming faction war. An Azerite kamehameha, really? There were so many things that could have been done with N'zoth and this is the least interesting of them. The guy doesn't even have his own zone because most of the attention is focused on Shadowlands. He just has a few Old God assets in old zones.
    Deathwing wasn't just "N'Zoth's minion," though - anymore than the Lich King was just "the Legion's minion." Deathwing was a storied character with a history stretching all the way back to WC2. He was also corrupted by *all* the remaining Old Gods back in the War of the Ancients, but by the time of Cata only N'Zoth was left alive to really activate him for his turn in the villain spotlight of WoW's ongoing story-arc.

    I don't disagree that N'Zoth's defeat seems abrupt, but that's not really my argument - my argument is that N'Zoth's primary appearance and seeming defeat is being handled like all the Old Gods before him, and no one really complained bitterly about the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj or the Secrets of Ulduar as content patches to my knowledge? The entirety of the Gates and Secrets patches were also not quite built around the Old God they featured, and N'Zoth has his own realm that constitutes the raid (whereas C'Thun and Yogg-Saron "borrowed" an existing structure from another culture for their own raid) supported by other patch content.

    In my view, N'Zoth is getting more non-raid content devoted to him than his brothers ever got (e.g. the Visions, daily/world quest content, corrupted zones, etc. etc.) Is that enough? Well, YMMV on that score. As I said previously I would've loved an expansion devoted to N'Zoth and his minions, turning Ny'alotha into a realm we explore and learning more about the Old Gods as perhaps touching on the mysteries of the Void as well, but that's a pie in the sky type concept that's just not on offer, apparently. What we're getting is more in keeping with what we've historically got.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Deathwing wasn't just "N'Zoth's minion," though - anymore than the Lich King was just "the Legion's minion." Deathwing was a storied character with a history stretching all the way back to WC2. He was also corrupted by *all* the remaining Old Gods back in the War of the Ancients, but by the time of Cata only N'Zoth was left alive to really activate him for his turn in the villain spotlight of WoW's ongoing story-arc.

    I don't disagree that N'Zoth's defeat seems abrupt, but that's not really my argument - my argument is that N'Zoth's primary appearance and seeming defeat is being handled like all the Old Gods before him, and no one really complained bitterly about the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj or the Secrets of Ulduar as content patches to my knowledge? The entirety of the Gates and Secrets patches were also not quite built around the Old God they featured, and N'Zoth has his own realm that constitutes the raid (whereas C'Thun and Yogg-Saron "borrowed" an existing structure from another culture for their own raid) supported by other patch content.

    In my view, N'Zoth is getting more non-raid content devoted to him than his brothers ever got (e.g. the Visions, daily/world quest content, corrupted zones, etc. etc.) Is that enough? Well, YMMV on that score. As I said previously I would've loved an expansion devoted to N'Zoth and his minions, turning Ny'alotha into a realm we explore and learning more about the Old Gods as perhaps touching on the mysteries of the Void as well, but that's a pie in the sky type concept that's just not on offer, apparently. What we're getting is more in keeping with what we've historically got.
    Except the Lich King being a Legion creation is not comparable to Deathwing falling to direct Old God corruption and doing his best to bring about the hour of Twilight, though.

    And again, N'Zoth is an unleashed Old God at full power. Yogg-saron and C'thun, for as much as they were just tossed in there, were still weakened. Plus C'thun was added in a time where Old Gods weren't all that built up yet. In those days, it was basically said that C'thun and a Titan battled and both were thought to fall, yet C'thun survived and hid low. But that was back when there was "The Titans" and "The Pantheon" as a separate group with the implication that there were a whole bunch of Titans, but the Pantheon were the most powerful.

    But at this point, it really is just the Pantheon and their Titanic Watchers.

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand, the fact that the final planned attack against N'zoth is an Azerite kamehameha and Ny'alotha is just a raid, with the only outdoor zones being the lightly purpled up zones from old expansions only further illustrates how disinterested they are in giving him anything remotely close to a proper sendoff.

  11. #111
    LMAO at the people thinking that an Old God is this all-mighty thing

    C'thun, Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth were all defeated by Titanforged armies of the Makers. Earthen, original Vrykul, Tol'vir, whatever - they went to each of their carapace and pushed 'em into the ground. Y'shaarj was sadly too fat to be dealt with that way, but for the other three? Sticks and stones.

    The Champions of Azeroth will simply do the same now, and they are way more powerful than your regular army. We have Azerite.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm not really sure why people are so up in arms over N'Zoth, myself. C'Thun had a bit of lead-up in Silithus (and before if you consider the Silithids to be connected), but he was unveiled and defeated in a single content patch back in 1.9.0. Ditto for Yogg-Saron as well, who got some lead-up in the form of WotLK's leveling content in the Howling Fjord and in Icecrown, but was unveiled and defeated in Ulduar back in 3.1.0. And now we have N'Zoth on our plate, as of 8.3.0 in BfA - with more lead-up but similarly and seemingly dealt with in his own content patch. What's really different for N'Zoth as compared to his two other raid boss brothers?

    I would've loved an Old God-themed expansion built around the mysteries of Ny'alotha myself, but that still would've been the exception as opposed to the rule.
    I think the hype about him mainly comes from the days of Cataclysm/MoP/WoD, before the Chronicles. Back then the Old Gods were the OG evil in Warcraft. There were no Void Lords, and it was said that even Sargeras would beg for a quick death if N'Zoth ever broke free. Also we knew very little about N'Zoth, many believed he was the most powerful Old God too. I personally remember this fan image, which was very popular back then:



    So again, back then Old Gods were considered to be uber powerful, and N'Zoth was possibly the strongest of them too (as you can see in that image, basically a combination of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron and bigger too), especially since if I am not mistaken it was also said in the DS raid journal that he battled both C'Thun and Yogg-Saron by himself.

    However yeah, I lowered my expectations a lot after Chronicles was released. Now that we know that Old Gods are just puppets of the real gods of evil, that N'Zoth is the weakest of the Old Gods, and that the strongest of them is an insect compared to a titan, I don't really see him as such a big threat anymore.

    He is still a considerable threat, mind you. As we can see from the Visions of Stormwind and Orgrimmar, he is close to victory and he has the means to annihilate all life on the planet, but again he is no longer as mysterious and scary as he was back then.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-01-07 at 01:33 PM.
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  13. #113
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I guess N'zoth should've had a beautiful elven form for you to think there was any story potential there.
    Xal'atath is the actual focus of that questline. I mean she's not exactly great, but she shows way more potential as a villain than N'zoth. She's certainly shown herself to be much more manipulative.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Xal'atath is the actual focus of that questline. I mean she's not exactly great, but she shows way more potential as a villain than N'zoth. She's certainly shown herself to be much more manipulative.
    That and she has a pretty elven form.
    Like Sylvanas.

  15. #115
    N'zoth is a planner, schemer, corrupter, conductor of a chaos orchestra.

    It's not a brute force old god. So saying N'zoth is the weakest is rather meaningless. There are more ways to be strong.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    LMAO at the people thinking that an Old God is this all-mighty thing

    C'thun, Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth were all defeated by Titanforged armies of the Makers. Earthen, original Vrykul, Tol'vir, whatever - they went to each of their carapace and pushed 'em into the ground. Y'shaarj was sadly too fat to be dealt with that way, but for the other three? Sticks and stones.

    The Champions of Azeroth will simply do the same now, and they are way more powerful than your regular army. We have Azerite.
    And then we'll move on to struggle against screamy elf lady backed by nondescript death entity with beard and said nondescript death entity with beard.

    Consume next product.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shambulanced View Post
    N'zoth is a planner, schemer, corrupter, conductor of a chaos orchestra.

    It's not a brute force old god. So saying N'zoth is the weakest is rather meaningless. There are more ways to be strong.
    It's also built upon the faulty assumption that N'zoth now and Yogg/C'thun then are at the same % of their full power.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    That and she has a pretty elven form.
    Like Sylvanas.
    Well a void mommy dom tends to make better Rule34 than a subby tentacled moron.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Well a void mommy dom tends to make better Rule34 than a subby tentacled moron.
    If Blizzard made a Warcraft waifu gacha game, they'd probably make bank.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    I think the hype about him mainly comes from the days of Cataclysm/MoP/WoD, before the Chronicles. Back then the Old Gods were the OG evil in Warcraft. There were no Void Lords, and it was said that even Sargeras would beg for a quick death if N'Zoth ever broke free. Also we knew very little about N'Zoth, many believed he was the most powerful Old God too. I personally remember this fan image, which was very popular back then:



    So again, back then Old Gods were considered to be uber powerful, and N'Zoth was possibly the strongest of them too (as you can see in that image, basically a combination of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron and bigger too), especially since if I am not mistaken it was also said in the DS raid journal that he battled both C'Thun and Yogg-Saron by himself.

    However yeah, I lowered my expectations a lot after Chronicles was released. Now that we know that Old Gods are just puppets of the real gods of evil, that N'Zoth is the weakest of the Old Gods, and that the strongest of them is an insect compared to a titan, I don't really see him as such a big threat anymore.

    He is still a considerable threat, mind you. As we can see from the Visions of Stormwind and Orgrimmar, he is close to victory and he has the means to annihilate all life on the planet, but again he is no longer as mysterious and scary as he was back then.
    "Hype" I feel is the main issue at play here - that and the ever-present danger of overhype. N'Zoth has been the beneficiary of a lot of teasing and glimpses since Cata, from the Puzzle-Box to Il'gynoth to Ogmot to Xal'atath. All the puzzles and riddles and bits of assorted prophecies. It's easy for people to start building up impossible presentations for the villain, letting their minds run riot and forgetting the built-in limitations of both the game world in question as well as the human penchant for disbelief.

    Stephen King calls it the "50 Foot Bug Effect" in one of his nonfiction books. You tease the villain, glimpses and Lovecraftian pronouncements that "you cannot imagine the true form." But eventually every author has to sell a steak with all that sizzle. And so at the end you whip away the curtain to reveal a 50' insect of monstrous proportions, but your audience just sits back in their chairs with a sigh of relief and says "oh, just 50 feet? I thought it'd be 100 feet." It's an unfortunate quirk of human psychology stemming from the mind's desire to protect and insulate itself - makes us hard to impress in many cases, especially when it comes to suspension of disbelief.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    Read some about the patch notes and datamined dialogue, then saw the cutscene, anyway, for a villain that has been teased for years, that has been behind a lot of stuff, is this it? Just one patch and THAT dealing with the biggest villain in wow history aside from Sargeras?
    No he isn't I don't bleieve N'zoth is singlehandedly behind all the diabolocial plots, the old gods all plotted together, and while they were weakened by their imprisonment, theyy had a hand itogether in all the things any of the various ones were doing - unless this has been retconned.

    As the only remaining old god, he would have all the plans and things from the others, so he might call them his plans, because a part of all the others lives on in him, they are void lord manifestations/I'm not sure how it works.

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