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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by BoltBlaster View Post
    Nice change, but giving priority to auctions that were added last logic is stupid. So instead of 1c undercuts, now players are forced to simply relist their auctions every few minutes. Same thing, different semantics. Still forces players to no life auction house UI at highly competitive markets such as enchanting scrolls, so only those who can cancel and relist their auctions every few minutes get a chance to sell.

    Priority should be given to items that were put on auction house first. Like normal queue -> first posted, first sold. To prevent 1c undercuts simply set limit to undercut price, something like not allowing to undercut for less than 5% of lowest price. That would allow players to put their auctions and go play actual game instead of being forced to camp auction house.
    Guild Wars 2 gets around this problem by allowing buyers to post price points too. So a seller sees a list of wanted items with gold posted. If they sell an item they can instantly sell to a listing from a buyer, or they can price theirs at the buy values hoping someone buys.

    Conversely, a buyer posting is taking the chance that someone else will offer to buy for more than them.

    As an example: say sellers are posting stacks of flasks for 1000g - next lowest sell would be 995g for a stack and you are hoping someone won’t try to sell for 990g.

    OR, you can take your flask stack and sell to the highest buyer bid, say for 900g. Your profit margin is 90g less, true, but you don’t have to gamble on someone undercutting you (so you sell nothing and thus have no profit at all).
    Last edited by Nefarious Tea; 2020-01-06 at 08:24 PM.
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  2. #82
    Only took em 15 years.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoss View Post
    You do not need this because this no longer exists. If one person adds 12 single items, the next person adds 2 stacks of 6, it will just mean there are 24 items on the AH and you can buy for example 14 of them. In other words - you cannot post a "stack" for purchase, only an amount that will be sold in singles to everyone willing to buy.
    but how wanna ppl then play the AH game well ? this in fact kills a part of existing game ppl like. or what i am missing here ?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    Guild Wars 2 gets around this problem by allowing buyers to post price points too. So a seller sees a list of wanted items with gold posted. If they sell an item they can instantly sell to a listing from a buyer, or they can price theirs at the buy values hoping someone buys.

    Conversely, a buyer posting is taking the chance that someone else will offer to buy for more than them.

    As an example: say sellers are posting stacks of flasks for 1000g - next lowest sell would be 995g for a stack and you are hoping someone won’t try to sell for 990g.

    OR, you can take your flask stack and sell to the highest buyer bid, say for 900g. Your profit margin is 90g less, true, but you don’t have to gamble on someone undercutting you (so you sell nothing and thus have no profit at all).
    That seems like a very good system!
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by BoltBlaster View Post
    That seems like a very good system!
    Yeah GW2 has a really robust player driven economy/auction system... I don’t get why blizzard is only implementing half of their system. Maybe the buyer side will come in Shadowlands?
    Do not ask questions for which you do not want the answers.

  6. #86
    All this means is that I won't even log back on to WOW to auction, because like many people I never adopted TSM4 and TSM3 probably won't be updated. Cockblocked by 2 different clueless developers GG

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanegasi View Post
    That's how the market works. The price fluctuates. Undercutting is necessary.
    That is true for undercuts that are deep enough to actually affect the price. What people are saying is that barely noticeable undercuts like 1c etc are going to be pointless after this change.

  8. #88
    Bloodsail Admiral Phurox's Avatar
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    This system seems pretty stupid. If I post 400 linen to 1 gold each, and three people post 600 each After me, it means all their 1800 linen needs to be sold before mine gets sold.

    The last should be sold first, with the later added after. This will probably kill the AH for casuals.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkke View Post
    That is true for undercuts that are deep enough to actually affect the price. What people are saying is that barely noticeable undercuts like 1c etc are going to be pointless after this change.
    And they're not smart.

    Undercutting still exists, it's still a thing. People keep bringing up 1 or 2 more buyers = undercutting is pointless, in their vapid scenarios.

    "6 auctions and you're the 7th but someone wants to buy 7 see undercutting is pointless!"


    Realistic scenarios would include the rate that something gets purchased, the rarity of the item, and the volume available for sale. Essentially exactly like a stock market, you have buy walls and sell walls.


    So say something is posted for 60g regularly. There are 1,000 up at 60g.
    And on average, that thing sells once every minute at 60g BUT 100 are posted every minute.

    If you post yours at 60g, depending on where in the "purchase pulse" you end up, you could be waiting 100 minutes to sell yours if you post at 60g
    OR, you can guarantee that you are the next one sold at 59g99s99c

    That's how the walls break down and prices lower in the first place. If there are waaaay more sellers than buyers, the price effectively, eventually drops due to people selling at <60 then <59.99.99 and so on, until they start selling.


    Price points have "sales rates." 60g might sell once a minute, but the same item at 50g would sell once every 10 seconds, and so on.


    Basically, I probably should delete this post because people claiming "it's the end of undercutting" are what allow people who know how to work the auctionhouse to make easy profits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Phurox View Post
    This system seems pretty stupid. If I post 400 linen to 1 gold each, and three people post 600 each After me, it means all their 1800 linen needs to be sold before mine gets sold.

    The last should be sold first, with the later added after. This will probably kill the AH for casuals.
    The last is sold first. (last in, first out) You mean the first should be first. (first in, first out)


    Three people would just post 1800 linen for 99s 99c and still sell before yours... so what's the difference?


    The reason why you do LIFO is to set the market around the most "recently valuated things."

    If an item is up there for X for 3 weeks, and I post it also at X, I am essentially confirming that price point so my valuation goes first. Otherwise, I could easily just undercut it by minimum amount to do the same thing.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by frott View Post
    And they're not smart.

    Undercutting still exists, it's still a thing. People keep bringing up 1 or 2 more buyers = undercutting is pointless, in their vapid scenarios.

    "6 auctions and you're the 7th but someone wants to buy 7 see undercutting is pointless!"


    Realistic scenarios would include the rate that something gets purchased, the rarity of the item, and the volume available for sale. Essentially exactly like a stock market, you have buy walls and sell walls.


    So say something is posted for 60g regularly. There are 1,000 up at 60g.
    And on average, that thing sells once every minute at 60g BUT 100 are posted every minute.

    If you post yours at 60g, depending on where in the "purchase pulse" you end up, you could be waiting 100 minutes to sell yours if you post at 60g
    OR, you can guarantee that you are the next one sold at 59g99s99c

    That's how the walls break down and prices lower in the first place. If there are waaaay more sellers than buyers, the price effectively, eventually drops due to people selling at <60 then <59.99.99 and so on, until they start selling.


    Price points have "sales rates." 60g might sell once a minute, but the same item at 50g would sell once every 10 seconds, and so on.


    Basically, I probably should delete this post because people claiming "it's the end of undercutting" are what allow people who know how to work the auctionhouse to make easy profits.
    Your calculation has a flaw: It only works if the market is not in equilibirum. Once prices have dropped enough then supply will dry out until supply = demand. And at that point undercutting stops being a thing. But I think you know that and meant "stop" instead of the marked text? Nevertheless, the new system is an upgrade form the old system.

  11. #91
    Bloodsail Admiral Tommys's Avatar
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    Still needs buy orders.
    Last edited by Tommys; 2020-01-07 at 01:29 AM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by frott View Post
    So say something is posted for 60g regularly. There are 1,000 up at 60g.
    And on average, that thing sells once every minute at 60g BUT 100 are posted every minute.

    If you post yours at 60g, depending on where in the "purchase pulse" you end up, you could be waiting 100 minutes to sell yours if you post at 60g
    OR, you can guarantee that you are the next one sold at 59g99s99c
    The flaw in that example is that you assume that people would keep posting the item at 60g while your auction would stay as the only one at lower price and thus sell next. Realistically people would just start posting their auctions at 59g99s99c moment you posted your auction at that price and you would have to wait same amount of time regardless if you undercut or not.

    Basically in current system undercutting has three effects:
    - It moves your auction front of the listings
    - It increases the demand as price goes lower
    - It lowers the supply as profit gets lower and people don't want to sell their items at lower profits.
    Trick is that the first effect is static while the others scale by how much you undercut. When you undercut by minimal amount you still move your auction to the top of the listings and two other effects are negligible.
    In the new system your auction moves in front of the line regardless if you undercut or not so any undercutting where the other two effects are negligible is pointless.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    That's... That's not how economics works.

    New items cost more because they're new and there aren't as many of them but a lot of people want them. After a while the "new" items aren't as rare and also aren't as desirable so they cost less. That's pretty basic supply and demand, and is in no way impacted by undercutting at all.
    Explain to me in this example where the cost drops again?

    I can point it out to you, really. It's "After a while, the 'new' items aren't as rare" - Except you skip the part here where the rarity drop is also including those numerous new people with access to the item undercutting one another to drop the price in the first place. How does the price drop if no one is undercutting? Does it not just stay the exact same?

    (I'm not talking about 1c undercuts. Prices rapidly drop as people undercut by golds, dozens of gold, sometimes hundreds of gold for more expensive items, to sell their item faster. As that snowballs, prices drop. But why do this if you'll sell first by just posting at the same price?)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    ... Auctions last 12/24/48 hours (not sure about the durations). If your thing never sells, you will HAVE TO repost it. And when you do, it will sell instantly (because in your example, everything seems to be sold instantly ). Hence, no problem.
    I never said things sell instantly. In fact, my example accounts for space between your posting and people buying, otherwise there would be no time for other people to post items in between.

    The point is, when that buyer EVENTUALLY comes around - If you weren't the last person to post the item, you don't sell your items. When the buyer comes around, of course the item sells instantly - Because the buyer has arrived and is buying it. But the only post that matters when the buyer comes around, is the last posting. Even if your post is equal in value to the item being sold. That's a very stupid way for auctions to work. It encourages sitting and reposting, because if anyone posts after you, you can't sell until you repost.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-01-07 at 04:29 AM.
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  14. #94
    finally an AH fighting agains the abuser of it
    took 15 years on the other side lol

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerya View Post
    I assume that just means no need to do the 1 copper undercut. It'll auto-fill to the lowest listed price and the most recently posted items will be the first to sell at that price. But if you want to unload something even faster (drop it by a few gold or whatever) you can still manually adjust the price down and that becomes the new default low.
    I tried to advocate for buy orders to fix this but had no luck. We'll continue to have undercutting problems until we have a true two sided market place and not an auction house.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    Yeah GW2 has a really robust player driven economy/auction system... I don’t get why blizzard is only implementing half of their system. Maybe the buyer side will come in Shadowlands?
    I couldn't get an answer, but I advocated for it heavily in the feedback thread. I'm hoping they keep adding features in a later patch for a two sided market place.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    but how wanna ppl then play the AH game well ? this in fact kills a part of existing game ppl like. or what i am missing here ?
    it kill the fact that people was abusing the things and was hiding the real deal with a mountain of the same item x1, it kill one apect of this and im happy for that

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    but how wanna ppl then play the AH game well ? this in fact kills a part of existing game ppl like. or what i am missing here ?
    It doesn't kill or change the AH. It makes the AH more fluid because you no longer have to play the inefficient stack size mini game. In effect, if you think you were making money by stack size manipulation, you might've been, but it should've been such a small percentage of money that the market liquidity will make up for it. (It is easier for people to buy the quantity of an item they need so they're more likely to use the AH to buy the items in question which translates to more volume and more sales.)
    Last edited by SteveZaer; 2020-01-07 at 04:31 AM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Explain to me in this example where the cost drops again?

    I can point it out to you, really. It's "After a while, the 'new' items aren't as rare" - Except you skip the part here where the rarity drop is also including those numerous new people with access to the item undercutting one another to drop the price in the first place. How does the price drop if no one is undercutting? Does it not just stay the exact same?

    (I'm not talking about 1c undercuts. Prices rapidly drop as people undercut by golds, dozens of gold, sometimes hundreds of gold for more expensive items, to sell their item faster. As that snowballs, prices drop. But why do this if you'll sell first by just posting at the same price?)
    Do you really need this explained? lol

    The price of items drops because of one or two reasons. Either people no longer need the item, so the demand goes away, or the item starts getting farmed so the supply goes up. It has literally nothing to do with undercutting.

    For example the prices for consumables will go up when the new raid comes out because there's demand for them. Then in a month when everyone has cleared the new raid the demand will slow down and the price will decrease over time. Not because people are undercutting each other, but because less people are buying the item in the first place.

    If undercutting tanked the price of items then literally everything on the AH would sell for under 10g, which very obviously isn't the case. I honestly can't even fathom how you came to that conclusion.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    Yeah GW2 has a really robust player driven economy/auction system... I don’t get why blizzard is only implementing half of their system. Maybe the buyer side will come in Shadowlands?
    Yea the GW2's AH is pretty great.Anet nailed this aspect quite well.
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  20. #100
    The current AH is awful so any change is welcome.

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