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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If your goal isn't to effect change, what's the fucking point in any of that? They're not using any of that heavy gear to give you a hard time in Iraq and Syria, it won't achieve anything. It's dick waving at that point, and I'm sure China will continue to have some cheap drones to sell them.
    Let me clarify. Air attacks are not likely to cause a country to change its course in and of themselves ("Do X or we will continue to bomb Y."), but they are capable of forcing a country to change by their ability to remove the ability of said country to continue on its present course. Destroying the factory that makes the WizzBang SRBM has the practical effect of limiting the number of WizzBangs that can be deployed going forward, no matter how many WizzBangs countries want....
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
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  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    Could you imagine living in a place like that.. with air sirens constantly telling you "hey watch out maybe some bombs falling out of the sky"

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Let me clarify. Air attacks are not likely to cause a country to change its course in and of themselves ("Do X or we will continue to bomb Y."), but they are capable of forcing a country to change by their ability to remove the ability of said country to continue on its present course. Destroying the factory that makes the WizzBang SRBM has the practical effect of limiting the number of WizzBangs that can be deployed going forward, no matter how many WizzBangs countries want....
    Thing is, that's a practical application against higher tech weaponry, but that's not how Iran, or indeed Russia or China approach weapons development, because they know that's exactly what you'd try.

    They just churn out a lot of cheap shit, quickly, from simple dispersed facilities. Same way those same Whizzbang SRBMs can be produced in a hole in occupied Gaza.

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  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Oh, Ali is just a terrible place in general. I have passed through there a lot, always hated it. Never stayed more then a week.
    Yeah I was stuck there for six months.

    Worst I can say about it though was how boring it was so at least I wasn't getting shot at.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Thing is, that's a practical application against higher tech weaponry, but that's not how Iran, or indeed Russia or China approach weapons development, because they know that's exactly what you'd try.

    They just churn out a lot of cheap shit, quickly, from simple dispersed facilities. Same way those same Whizzbang SRBMs can be produced in a hole in occupied Gaza.
    Funny, both Russia and China have gone to the fewer better weapons route, and backwoods weapons factories cannot supply the quantity and quality an actual factor can.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
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  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Funny, both Russia and China have gone to the fewer better weapons route, and backwoods weapons factories cannot supply the quantity and quality an actual factor can.
    They’re still conscript armies that demand lots of cheap and simple. Better is relative; it’s still several generations behind NATO cutting edge, and China are masters of mass producing cheap simple shite.

    I mean a 3 year old can fly a drone nowadays. And every farmer has one in their barn to map out where to dump their fertiliser thanks to GPS automation, I fly one myself to map regrowth after wildfires. It’s not a huge leap to turn that tech and guidance into an effective cruise missile.

    And yet the Iranians can still pick out buildings 100 miles away with their ballistics because they can work out the trajectory with a smartphone app.

    Tech has improved generally and of course they’re going to exploit that. It doesn’t mean it’s anything like on par with NATO, or ever will be.

    As long as those counties don’t have purely volunteer armies, in which they aim to retain highly trained individuals, it would be counter productive for them to pursue the same high tech solutions typical of NATO.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    They’re still conscript armies that demand lots of cheap and simple. Better is relative; it’s still several generations behind NATO cutting edge, and China are masters of mass producing cheap simple shite.

    I mean a 3 year old can fly a drone nowadays. And every farmer has one in their barn to map out where to dump their fertiliser thanks to GPS automation, I fly one myself to map regrowth after wildfires. It’s not a huge leap to turn that tech and guidance into an effective cruise missile.

    And yet the Iranians can still pick out buildings 100 miles away with their ballistics because they can work out the trajectory with a smartphone app.

    Tech has improved generally and of course they’re going to exploit that. It doesn’t mean it’s anything like on par with NATO, or ever will be.

    As long as those counties don’t have purely volunteer armies, in which they aim to retain highly trained individuals, it would be counter productive for them to pursue the same high tech solutions typical of NATO.
    As I said, China is moving away from quantity over quality.

    Most NATO armies had conscription, and Israel still does. You can have high tech and conscripts, it just doesnt work as well as a professional military.

    A simple RF jammer would render your civilian drone useless.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
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  9. #409
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    As I said, China is moving away from quantity over quality.

    Most NATO armies had conscription, and Israel still does. You can have high tech and conscripts, it just doesnt work as well as a professional military.

    A simple RF jammer would render your civilian drone useless.
    And then you fire a Shrike or whatever the equivalent is these days at the jammer. Electronic Warfare isn’t exactly complex these days either, one way or another that Jammer is going to get hot fast.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    And then you fire a Shrike or whatever the equivalent is these days at the jammer. Electronic Warfare isn’t exactly complex these days either, one way or another that Jammer is going to get hot fast.
    How strong do you think a jammer has to be to render a civilian drone useless? You could probably jam it with a garage door remote or a cellphone tuned to the right frequency.
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  11. #411
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    How strong do you think a jammer has to be to render a civilian drone useless? You could probably jam it with a garage door remote or a cellphone tuned to the right frequency.
    Stronger than the controller, which depends on range. After that it depends on the autopilot and GPS/GLONASS or whatever system it’s using. You can jam that too, but how do you know it’s not plugged into your own?

    By the time those things become useful to you, it’s too late.

    And any kind of jamming is putting a big big target on your head that’s very easy to pick out.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2020-01-09 at 12:12 AM.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    And then you fire a Shrike or whatever the equivalent is these days at the jammer. Electronic Warfare isn’t exactly complex these days either, one way or another that Jammer is going to get hot fast.
    Not nearly as strong as you would think. Nor does it have to be active for very long. EW is VERY complex these days.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  13. #413
    *takes notes*

    Just for my own...something.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  14. #414
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Not nearly as strong as you would think. Nor does it have to be active for very long. EW is VERY complex these days.
    Any length of time is going to give you away to a ballistic follow up, and if you’re jamming with any kind of LOS system or process you’re already too late anyway.

    The drones used in Yemen and against Saudi oil facilities already showed these things aren’t easy to pick up on for more sophisticated systems.

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Any length of time is going to give you away to a ballistic follow up, and if you’re jamming with any kind of LOS system or process you’re already too late anyway.

    The drones used in Yemen and against Saudi oil facilities already showed these things aren’t easy to pick up on for more sophisticated systems.
    A ballistic response is pointless against a Compass Call. Also, LOS works both ways.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
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  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    A ballistic response is pointless against a Compass Call. Also, LOS works both ways.
    Every radio operator within 100 miles knows you’re there, they can triangulate immediately to the nanometer. Hell they probably have automated systems now that do that for you.

    You have two scenarios.
    1. Drone is in autopilot going to a place to Suicide, drop a payload, take pictures, or wait for an active pilot to jump in. This you need to jam the guidance GPS if you want to throw it off, but it’ll just get lost (at worst) until you stop jamming then it will find itself and find it’s way back to where it was told to go. It should still be able to work out where it is based on flight speed, altitude and heading in any case. It’s not expecting orders and probably won’t take them, if you can find whatever frequency and encryption key you need to try. It won’t be transmitting anything for you to find out.

    2. Recon/HK drone with an active pilot. This you can jam because it’s likely in constant communication with its pilot. You need to see it coming one way or another. Depending on the strength of your jammer, you’re probably too late, or in harms way when you start. Or you just got lucky. Drone will revert to autopilot and fly to a pre-determined ‘safe’ holding area after a certain period of lost comms. Meanwhile you’ve just told everyone within 100 miles “I have an RF jammer” and made yourself the next target for next time someone wants to fly a drone there and bait you out accordingly.

    The principals aren’t complex, but the execution needs a lot more behind it. If it was ever straightforward against any kind of drone, militarily it’d be dead end technology.

    And yes; LOS does work both ways. You do get an opportunity to shoot at it. Except they’re small and fast, and far from trivial things to take down.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2020-01-09 at 01:17 AM.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Every radio operator within 100 miles knows you’re there, they can triangulate immediately to the nanometer. Hell they probably have automated systems now that do that for you.

    You have two scenarios.
    1. Drone is in autopilot going to a place to Suicide, drop a payload, take pictures, or wait for an active pilot to jump in. This you need to jam the guidance GPS if you want to throw it off, but it’ll just get lost until you stop jamming then it will find itself and find it’s way back to where it was told to go. It’s not expecting orders and probably won’t take them, if you can find whatever frequency and encryption key you need to try. It won’t be transmitting anything for you to find out.

    2. Recon/HK drone with an active pilot. This you can jam because it’s likely in constant communication with its pilot. You need to see it coming one way or another. Depending on the strength of your jammer, you’re probably too late, or in harms way when you start. Or you just got lucky. Drone will revert to autopilot and fly to a pre-determined ‘safe’ holding area after a certain period of lost comms. Meanwhile you’ve just told everyone within 100 miles “I have an RF jammer” and made yourself the next target for next time someone wants to fly a drone there and bait you out accordingly.

    The principals aren’t complex, but the execution needs a lot more behind it. If it was ever straightforward against any kind of drone, militarily it’d be dead end technology.

    And yes; LOS does work both ways. You do get an opportunity to shoot at it. Except they’re small and fast, and far from trivial things to take down.
    You have no idea what a Compass Call is....

    There is more than one kind of jamming.

    A soft kill is operationally as good as a hard kill.
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    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  18. #418

  19. #419
    The Unstoppable Force Breccia's Avatar
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    Related:

    Former national security adviser Susan Rice called him out on pretty much all of those, and also, the briefing Team Trump gave the Senate was so poor even the GOP feel insulted that Trump tried that shit.

    A furious Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) emerged from Wednesday's classified briefing by the Trump administration on the killing of Iranian Gen. Qasem Soleimani, calling it "insulting and demeaning" that briefers instructed senators not to debate the appropriateness of further military action against Iran.

    Lee said that he entered the briefing "undecided" on whether to vote for a Senate resolution curbing President Trump's military action toward Iran and left the briefing "decided."

    It's rare to see a Republican senator so harshly rebuke the Trump administration, but Lee — along with fellow libertarian-leaning Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) — did not hold back on condemning officials for suggesting that members of Congress debating military action would further embolden Iran.

    "They were asked repeatedly, what, if anything, would trigger the need for the administration to come back to Congress for a declaration of war or an Authorization for the Use of Military Force," Lee added. "At one point, I believe one of the briefers said something like, “I’m sure we can think of something.” But they struggled to identify anything."
    "But surely he didn't say --"

    They're appearing before a co-equal branch of government responsible for their funding, for their confirmation, for any approval of any military action they might undertake. They had to leave after 75 minutes, while they were in the process of telling us that we need to be good little boys and girls and run along and not debate this in public. I find that absolutely insane. I think it's unacceptable.
    "Oh. Huh."

    Yep. Remember for the last 1700 pages or so when we said "Trump doesn't listen to anyone and therefore will make mistakes"? And some of us even said "including starting a war via tweet"? Aaaaaaaaaaand scene.

    No-one is above the law.

  20. #420
    Elemental Lord
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    Appears it wasn't a one night thing


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