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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    The question I ask is, why do some Americans support a country that has murdered hundreds of Americans and thousands of it's own people and at every opportunity shouts Death to America?
    They don't. They support the Iranian people.



    Let's not pretend for a second that American conservatives wouldn't enact a regime in the fashion of Iran if given carte blanche. Look at what they're doing at the state level.
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  2. #162
    How could this be the United State's fault in any way? Iran decided to launch missiles where there was air traffic of civilian aircraft. This is like saying "Jim had to sneeze, but the class ran out of klenex. The teacher went to go get some klenex in another classroom and got shot by a school shooter. It's Jim's fault that the teacher went to the other classroom and she wouldn't have died otherwise."

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    How could this be the United State's fault in any way?
    Because the US direction contributed to the heightened tensions. It's not the fault of the US that Iran shot down a civilian aircraft, that's purely on Iran, but it is on the US for contributing to the conditions that created this situation.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    How could this be the United State's fault in any way? Iran decided to launch missiles where there was air traffic of civilian aircraft. This is like saying "Jim had to sneeze, but the class ran out of klenex. The teacher went to go get some klenex in another classroom and got shot by a school shooter. It's Jim's fault that the teacher went to the other classroom and she wouldn't have died otherwise."
    It's a little closer to Jim and another student got into a shooting match and the teacher got caught in the crossfire.

  5. #165
    Of course plenty of blame belongs to Iran. The reason why some blame also belongs to Trump is because he (and others) lied about there being an imminent attack. Trump did this because of impeachment. It was essentially a criminal act that should get any president removed from office.

    To me it's no different than being charged with murder because a death took place during the commission of a crime even if the criminal didn't pull the trigger himself.

    But even if it hadn't been this particular plane it still doesn't matter. Acts of war always have collateral damage. When Trump decided to lie and carry out this assassination to help himself with impeachment, he was also allowing the potential deaths unintended targets. This applies to all presidents, obviously, but such action needs justification. It has to be necessary. That's not what happened here.
    Last edited by Blur4stuff; 2020-01-10 at 11:13 PM.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    This is the original title and article that the Associated Press published today. After a shitload of outrage about the title and excerpts from the article, they quickly changed it to "As Iran and US take step back from the brink, Canada grieves" and changed parts of the article, mainly to boost Iran. The original title was pathetic and sadly not surprising. The question I ask is, why do some Americans support a country that has murdered hundreds of Americans and thousands of it's own people and at every opportunity shouts Death to America?
    Orange man bad is why they'll defend a country like Iran.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    This is the original title and article that the Associated Press published today. After a shitload of outrage about the title and excerpts from the article, they quickly changed it to "As Iran and US take step back from the brink, Canada grieves" and changed parts of the article, mainly to boost Iran.
    So warmongering snowflakes got offended and pressured them to change the title. Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    The question I ask is, why do some Americans support a country that has murdered hundreds of Americans and thousands of it's own people and at every opportunity shouts Death to America?
    Because "not wanting to start a war that will end countless lives for absolutely no reason" isn't the same as "support." Fucking obviously.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Probably because they don't care, since it is not them who have to go and fight. They can armchair general the whole thing from home and feel strong, I guess.

    Anyway, let's stop posting in this thread. We already have multiple threads talking about the plane thing and one thread specifically for discussion of the event. This post belongs in that thread and should be discussed there, instead of in another thread that will just repeat the same beats once more.
    not only that but op will probably just run off and make off another disingenious thread to avoid having to answer questions.
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  9. #169
    The Unstoppable Force Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABEEnr2 View Post
    ah skore skore skore...never change. No matter how wrong the US are you will always spin it and say "bUt We NeVeR dId AnYtHiNg WrOnG",
    The US does plenty wrong.

    This is not one of those times

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    That does honestly sound extremely hollow, considering how the West, including the US, have been fucking up the middle east for decades.
    There is no even-stevens here though. Like this is one of the problems of discussing international relations among laymen (which is fine). People always return to person-to-person level interaction. In this case: "because I was mean to you, you get to be mean to me".

    From every conceivable angle that's an illegitimate perspective. Countries are driven over interests and the shared sense of community between them - something endemic in person-to-person interactions - is thinner. I can't bully you every day of the week and assault you because we live in a society where there is severe consequences for that for if that was normalized society would effectively not exist. By contrast, between nation, constant pressing of interests, whatever the means is viable because the set of community between nations is far thinner and there really isn't a "global society" in that sense.

    To lot at it from another angle, the end point of the rules of society is to keep it functional and peaceful, whereas the end point of the rules of international system is one of maximizing interests. Global peace is not an endpoint. Peace is only derived from interests. Peace only happens if it is in the interest of those able to make war to choose peace.

    Every country on Earth is fully entitled to maximally press its advantage. Take Russian interference in the 2016 election. I'm outrage THAT they did it. I'm outraged HOW they did it. But I've never once expressed outrage WHY they did it. Putin did something exceptionally risky to his own country, but, if it worked out (and it broadly did) would be at the very high end of advancing his country's interests. It's the same thing with China and Island building. I think it's outrageous that t hey are doing it and what they're planning for... but "why?". Obvious, clear as day and consistent with an interest-driven geopolitical outlook.
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    To lot at it from another angle, the end point of the rules of society is to keep it functional and peaceful, whereas the end point of the rules of international system is one of maximizing interests. Global peace is not an endpoint. Peace is only derived from interests. Peace only happens if it is in the interest of those able to make war to choose peace.


    Warfare is the exception in sedentary society. Stick to international relations and leave anthropology to the social scientists.
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  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    That actually helps point it out as an accident, had they downed it intentionally one would assume they would have used one of their US made SAMs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There is potentially a significant difference between what the investigation finds and what the investigation reports.
    Why would they have US SAMs? We never gave them any for any reason.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Saninicus View Post
    Orange man bad is why they'll defend a country like Iran.
    Who is defending Iran? You're creating a false dichotomy if you're suggesting that being against Trump's actions means defending Iran.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I'll counter your question with a question, do you consider people who have a non-intervention stance on Iran (as in, we shouldn't be fucking with Iran in the first place) the same as "supporting" Iran?

    Because that seems to be what leads to a lot of false equivalences. Like when many Americans just want us to stay out of the Israel conflict and say that "neither side is innocent" and then the Republicans immediately jump down their throats calling them antisemitic because they don't want to throw billions of dollars at Israel.

    As far as I can tell and have seen, I do not see any Americans "supporting" Israel, rather, most are just saying "we should have stayed out of their shit and not fucked with them in the first place." The history between Iran and the US has been one of tit for tat. The US hits some trade caravan of military supplies, Iran targets an oil tanker, the US bombs some remote military base, Iran does something in return. This shit has been going on for literally decades where we go through cycles of escalation and deescalation with Iran, and most of us just want it to end.
    The problem is every country in the middle east wants Israel dead so if you just "leave Israel alone" then you are signing their death warrant. That isnt to say Israel's aggressive expansion policy is okay. Probably needs to be a stipulation to our funding that Israel doesnt expand anymore.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2020-01-11 at 01:54 AM.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Who is defending Iran? You're creating a false dichotomy if you're suggesting that being against Trump's actions means defending Iran.
    You really haven't looked hard. No, lets be clear. Trump is desperate. I wouldn't put it past him to try to goad Iran. Trumps actions reek of desperation.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    This is the original title and article that the Associated Press published today. After a shitload of outrage about the title and excerpts from the article, they quickly changed it to "As Iran and US take step back from the brink, Canada grieves" and changed parts of the article, mainly to boost Iran. The original title was pathetic and sadly not surprising. The question I ask is, why do some Americans support a country that has murdered hundreds of Americans and thousands of it's own people and at every opportunity shouts Death to America?
    A very sad day for the AP's reputation as "straight news".

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    A very sad day for the AP's reputation as "straight news".
    Still better than National Review.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    Still better than National Review.
    Well National Review is an openly conservative analysis and opinion website. They don't purport to be "just the facts, ma'am" the way the AP does.

  18. #178
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Well National Review is an openly conservative analysis and opinion website. They don't purport to be "just the facts, ma'am" the way the AP does.
    I still don't understand this outrage. What was inaccurate about the original title? It is all true. An Iranian General was killed in a US attack. Check. Canada suffers. Check. These are both things that were in the news cycle at the same time, and do have some relation to each other. Check.

    So I don't understand this outrage at all. The wording is not great, but isn't wrong.
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Well National Review is an openly conservative analysis and opinion website. They don't purport to be "just the facts, ma'am" the way the AP does.
    And yet, AP is still better than National Review when it comes to accuracy and well, just about everything. And we know you get all of your opinion from Andrew McCarthy.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I still don't understand this outrage. What was inaccurate about the original title? It is all true. An Iranian General was killed in a US attack. Check. Canada suffers. Check. These are both things that were in the news cycle at the same time, and do have some relation to each other. Check.

    So I don't understand this outrage at all. The wording is not great, but isn't wrong.
    There were a lot of problems with it, but this line in particular:

    "What began with a drone attack on Gen. Qassem Soleimani’s motorcade at the Baghdad airport had rippled outward until dozens of Iranian-Canadians, and dozens of Iranian students studying in Canada, were dead,"

    "What began," first of all. But it implies US culpability in Iran being so sloppy that they managed to shoot down a commercial airliner.

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