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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As in we know Calia wasn't raised by Death magic, or Void magic, or Fel. So regardless of how you want to slice it canonically, undead beings have now been created by at least Death and Light magics.



    They're obviously not "one in the same," as one is permitted and studied in depth, and the other is forbidden and frowned upon. And we know Necromancy isn't just Arcane magic with a dash of Death, either; because we know the origins of the first Lich King, the Plague of Undeath, and all the details surrounding the rise of the Scourge (who are not Arcane in nature by any means) - the Lich King being the one who taught Kel'thuzad what little he knew of that form of magic. This isn't something that magically changed in 2009, either, this information we've got all the way back to 2002 during WC3. And further, if you chase it back to the Orcish Necrolytes of WC2 (1995) who could create skeletons from corpses using Shadow magic and/or Necromancy themselves (having no Arcane knowledge by dint of being former Shaman).



    I could well say that's exactly what you're doing - assuming your take on it is somehow the objective one, while I'm just coming out of left field. And no, I don't speak for everyone, but I've honestly never heard your take on it before, whereas I've heard mine several times from multiple sources. Make of that what you will.

    As for supporting the "claim," okay then. Firstly, let's look at it from a lore perspective:

    "Let this scar signify the first blow against the mortal world...
    From this seal shall arise the doom of men...
    Who, in their arrogance thought to wield our fire as their own...
    Blindly they built their kingdoms upon stolen knowledge and conceit...
    Now they shall be consumed by very flame they thought to control...
    Let the echoes of doom resound across this wretched world, that all who live may hear them and despair."

    You want to take Archimonde's word as canon for the nature of magic prior to WoW? Firstly, he refers to magic as "our fire," implying that he and the Legion somehow own it - that seems to back my view of it more than yours, as obviously neither Archimonde nor the Eredar can own the Arcane. The Well of Eternity and the nature of Arcane magic being latent in Azeroth was already established fact, so the "fire" wielded by Dalaran and the Mages doesn't belong to the Legion. Secondly, Dalaran didn't steal knowledge, they were given it by the High Elves, who taught the first Human Magi the art of spellcraft (again, still sticking with canon as of WC3) for their role in aiding the High Elves in the Troll Wars. Where's the stolen knowledge, where's the conceit? It's pure bluster on Archimonde's part, perfectly in keeping with his arrogant and domineering personality - assuming that the use of magic is by right his alone, and casting a jaundiced eye on upstart mortals attempting to use magic to defy the Legion's goals on Azeroth.

    Secondly, look at it from a narrative perspective. You think Archimonde was newly summoned to Azeroth, standing in the spotlight for a pivotal scene in the story, to what? Exposition the player (not even an in-game character or set-piece) on the nature of magic? To what end? What is even the sense in that? It's a curse against the defenders of Azeroth, powerfully delivered with sneering contempt, from the lips of a literal demon. Archimonde isn't explaining the nature of magic to no one, nor at the moment does he probably even care. He's just being grandiloquent because he's amused, and he thinks by arriving on Azeroth that the game is already over.

    And, again, this is wandering far afield from the original topic.
    dude, they could call it shadow magic, or arcane, but the thing is, it was just magic, it was like saying bad magic and good magic, good magic is what the mages do, bad magic can be used to raise the dead or call the demons or whatever, there wasnt a more profound distinction between each type of magic and that was pretty much the case from warcraft 2 to may be Chronicles.

    In the warcraft RPG that today is not canon but served as the foundation for the story of the rts games, it is mentioned that magic comes from the twisting nether.

    The rest is mental gymnastics.

    This is my last responde, bye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jawless Jones View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's the reason.

    Also, at this point pretty much anything can create undead, so far the only thing that can't make undead is the elements.
    But give it time and I'm guessing some shaman will make undead using the element of spirit.
    no, thats a misconception, like i told aucald, in every single example (except for Calia which is a weird thing) that you think someone raised the dead using another type of magic:

    a) it wasnt really other type of magic, it was death magic, you just werent paying attention.
    b) it wasnt really necromancy at all (see the botani and the infected)
    c) they were golems, constructs, not undeads.
    d) it is ambiguous or it is not mentioned what magic was used, in which case, chronicles 1 takes precedence so we have to assume that is death magic.
    Last edited by Piamonte; 2020-01-13 at 05:29 AM.

  2. #42
    This guy just denies the canon because he doesn't like it, you can give as many proofs and arguments as you like, but nothing will change, because he has his own lore

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    This guy just denies the canon because he doesn't like it, you can give as many proofs and arguments as you like, but nothing will change, because he has his own lore
    you are talking about me?? then show me your arguments.. is easy just saying "he denies canon" and not explaining why.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    you are talking about me?? then show me your arguments.. is easy just saying "he denies canon" and not explaining why.
    They brought you a bunch of examples of the resurrection of other magic, both Light and Blood, and your only argument is that it makes no sense to me
    These are your problems, if your knowledge of the lore is not enough to understand that everything is in order
    You say that in all the examples that you were given above, Death was used and you DO NOT confirm this in any way.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    They brought you a bunch of examples of the resurrection of other magic, both Light and Blood, and your only argument is that it makes no sense to me
    You say that in all the examples that you were given above, Death was used and you DO NOT confirm this in any way.
    i explained all those examples, the infected are not really undeads, nerzhul used both void magic and death magic, etc and when there is ambiguity, Chronicles 1 takes precedence, and Chronicles 1 says that necromancy, the art of raising the dead is fueled by death magic. Not light, not life, not arcane, but death magic.

    is not enough to understand that everything is in order
    The lore has a lot of plotholes, this is common knowledge, pretty much everyone agrees that blizzard´s writing is far from perfect so i dont see how "everything is in order"

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    if by life-based undead you mean what the botani did, you are wrong.
    I cower at the strength of your argument. To bad you didn't make one.

    No, those are quite clearly undead.

    As for Void based undead, has everybody forgotten Zuldazar assault already? Alliance get to ride on one.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I cower at the strength of your argument. To bad you didn't make one.

    No, those are quite clearly undead.

    As for Void based undead, has everybody forgotten Zuldazar assault already? Alliance get to ride on one.
    From wowpedia: "The infested[1] are fleshy beings that have been infested and subsequently transformed into plant-like forms (...) but far more terrifying is their ability to cultivate flora within a living host. Unwary natives are captured and seeded in an agonizing process that alters their physical makeup and takes complete control over their bodies, turning them into mindless walking saplings (...) The infested appear to be mere husks animated by plant life."

    Imagine you die and a plant takes controls of your arms and legs and moves you like a puppet, thats a infected. You are still dead, you were never raised.

    As for Void based undead, has everybody forgotten Zuldazar assault already? Alliance get to ride on one.
    I dont know which one you refer, can you show the source??

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    From wowpedia: "The infested[1] are fleshy beings that have been infested and subsequently transformed into plant-like forms (...) but far more terrifying is their ability to cultivate flora within a living host. Unwary natives are captured and seeded in an agonizing process that alters their physical makeup and takes complete control over their bodies, turning them into mindless walking saplings (...) The infested appear to be mere husks animated by plant life."

    Imagine you die and a plant takes controls of your arms and legs and moves you like a puppet, thats a infected. You are still dead, you were never raised.
    That sounds... exactly like mindless undead. For extra fun, there's a real fungus that does this. Luckily, i'm not an ant and The Last of Us is just a game.

    I dont know which one you refer, can you show the source??
    Faction assault in Zuldazar. Alliance ride on a Void-animated Devilsaur skeleton for the final quest.

  9. #49
    That sounds... exactly like mindless undead. For extra fun, there's a real fungus that does this. Luckily, i'm not an ant and The Last of Us is just a game.
    what?

    Faction assault in Zuldazar. Alliance ride on a Void-animated Devilsaur skeleton for the final quest.
    those are golems.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    i explained all those examples, the infected are not really undeads, nerzhul used both void magic and death magic, etc and when there is ambiguity, Chronicles 1 takes precedence, and Chronicles 1 says that necromancy, the art of raising the dead is fueled by death magic. Not light, not life, not arcane, but death magic.



    The lore has a lot of plotholes, this is common knowledge, pretty much everyone agrees that blizzard´s writing is far from perfect so i dont see how "everything is in order"
    You didn’t explain anything, you just said that it’s the magic of death and that’s it
    That Nzot used Death magic for Sinestra, that Meryl used Death to resurrect himself.
    I am sure that you will also argue that Fel cannot create undead, although we clearly see this in the example of Mannoroth and GulDan. Death again? But after all, the souls of demons do not fall into the Shadow Lands, they fall into the Twisting Nether. That is, to resurrect a demon as an undead (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Reanimated_Pit_Lord) you must take his soul from the Twirl and instill it in his skeleton.
    Void-N'zoth and Sinestra
    Light-Saa'ra and Calia
    Life-Botany/Blood Magic
    Arcane-Meryl and Azshara's spell
    Fel-skeletal pit lords
    ALL forces can raise undead. Stop arguing if you don't know the lore.
    You could not prove anything at Reddit and came to this forum, in the hope that the people here will give you new evidence for your statement, but as it turned out, they know the lore and told you how much you are mistaken.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    what?



    those are golems.
    What is the difference between golems and undead? What is the difference between a golem filled with arcane and a skeleton filled with necrmoancy?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    From wowpedia: "The infested[1] are fleshy beings that have been infested and subsequently transformed into plant-like forms (...) but far more terrifying is their ability to cultivate flora within a living host. Unwary natives are captured and seeded in an agonizing process that alters their physical makeup and takes complete control over their bodies, turning them into mindless walking saplings (...) The infested appear to be mere husks animated by plant life."

    Imagine you die and a plant takes controls of your arms and legs and moves you like a puppet, thats a infected. You are still dead, you were never raised.


    Imagine that you have died and a necromancer takes control of your body (zombie) / skeleton (skeleton), but does not touch your soul. You are still dead, you have never been resurrected.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    You didn’t explain anything, you just said that it’s the magic of death and that’s it
    That Nzot used Death magic for Sinestra, that Meryl used Death to resurrect himself.
    I am sure that you will also argue that Fel cannot create undead, although we clearly see this in the example of Mannoroth and GulDan. Death again? But after all, the souls of demons do not fall into the Shadow Lands, they fall into the Twisting Nether. That is, to resurrect a demon as an undead (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Reanimated_Pit_Lord) you must take his soul from the Twirl and instill it in his skeleton.
    Void-N'zoth and Sinestra
    Light-Saa'ra and Calia
    Life-Botany/Blood Magic
    Arcane-Meryl and Azshara's spell
    Fel-skeletal pit lords
    ALL forces can raise undead. Stop arguing if you don't know the lore.
    You could not prove anything at Reddit and came to this forum, in the hope that the people here will give you new evidence for your statement, but as it turned out, they know the lore and told you how much you are mistaken.
    Guldan knows how to use necromancy so i dont see what is the problem. It doesnt matter from where he got his soul, what matters is how he put his soul back into his body.

    About Sinestra, from wowpedia: "For all intents and purposes, she didn't; when players encounter Sinestra in the Bastion of Twilight raid, she is a husk of her former self, pieced together and reanimated by the powers of Deathwing's Old God master.". It doesnt say how Nzoth resurrected her, but because Chronicles is the main source of lore we have right now, we have to assume he used death magic. Otherwise is a plothole, because it contradicts the wow cosmology chart.

    I wont even bother with Calia

    I already explained the botani twice, they are golems.

    Meryl is an example of old lore being integrated into new one, back then you could learn how to use necromancy through the arcane, this is how the original story of Kelthuzad goes, but right now, Arcane and necromancy are different types of magics. So saying that Meryl used arcane magic to resurrect himself is like saying Kelthuzad used arcane to resurrect the dead, which is no longer the case.

    Azshara cursed ghosts are just that, cursed ghosts, spirits that cant find peace. Here we are talking specifically about raised undead aka a soul put back into his body.

    What is the difference between golems and undead? What is the difference between a golem filled with arcane and a skeleton filled with necrmoancy?
    Imagine that you have died and a necromancer takes control of your body (zombie) / skeleton (skeleton), but does not touch your soul. You are still dead, you have never been resurrected.
    A golem doesnt have a soul put back into his body, thats the difference. A forsaken that moves on his own will is an undead, a forsaken that moves because something else is moving his arms and legs like a puppet is a golem.

    You could not prove anything at Reddit
    wow my first stalker, i feel flattered.
    Last edited by Piamonte; 2020-01-17 at 02:25 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    Guldan knows how to use necromancy so i dont see what is the problem. It doesnt matter from where he got his soul, what matters is how he put his soul back into his body.

    About Sinestra, from wowpedia: "For all intents and purposes, she didn't; when players encounter Sinestra in the Bastion of Twilight raid, she is a husk of her former self, pieced together and reanimated by the powers of Deathwing's Old God master.". It doesnt say how Nzoth resurrected her, but because Chronicles is the main source of lore we have right now, we have to assume he used death magic. Otherwise is a plothole, because it contradicts the wow cosmology chart.

    I wont even bother with Calia

    I already explained the botani twice, they are golems.

    Meryl is an example of old lore being integrated into new one, back then you could learn how to use necromancy through the arcane, this is how the original story of Kelthuzad goes, but right now, Arcane and necromancy are different types of magics. So saying that Meryl used arcane magic to resurrect himself is like saying Kelthuzad used arcane to resurrect the dead, which is no longer the case.

    Azshara cursed ghosts are just that, cursed ghosts, spirits that cant find peace. Here we are talking specifically about raised undead aka a soul put back into his body.




    A golem doesnt have a soul put back into his body, thats the difference. A forsaken that moves on his own will is an undead, a forsaken that moves because something else is moving his arms and legs like a puppet is a golem.



    wow my first stalker, i feel flattered.
    All your nonsense is based on the fact that undead refers to Death on a map from the Chronicles. But after all, the Shadow Lands there are also located with Death, and not with Fel! So how can Gul'Dan use NECROMANCY to take a soul out of the TWISTING NETHER, the dimensions of FEL? Explain to me. Or can different forces do what usually applies to other forces? Then what is your problem?
    We must not assume anything. We actually never even saw the Old Gods or the faceless, their closest servants, use Death. Yogg-Saron called himself the god of death, but did not demonstrate any skills in this area.
    Of course not, because you cannot counterargument it (like everything else, actually) and just ignore it.
    As other examples have shown, any force can raise undead.
    That is, undead is only a soul returned to the body? That is, meaningless skeletons and zombies are not undead?
    Once again, all the difference is that golems don't have a soul? That is, soulless undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are these golems?
    I am not your stalker, I am the person with whom you argued on Reddit and who sits on IMO. You can’t even imagine how funny it was to me when I saw your topic and your nickname.

  13. #53
    So how can Gul'Dan use NECROMANCY to take a soul out of the TWISTING NETHER
    because he is both a warlock and a necromancer?? seriusly, is not that difficult.

    As other examples have shown, any force can raise undead.
    you repeat this, but i have yet to see an example where without a doubt someone is raising the dead using magic that is not Death.

    That is, undead is only a soul returned to the body? That is, meaningless skeletons and zombies are not undead?
    Once again, all the difference is that golems don't have a soul? That is, soulless undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are these golems?
    yes, those would be golems, you can create golems with many types of magic but raise the dead with only one.

    I am not your stalker
    you say that but you are acting as one.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    you repeat this, but i have yet to see an example where without a doubt someone is raising the dead using magic that is not Death.

    yes, those would be golems, you can create golems with many types of magic but raise the dead with only one.
    You mean "that i don't refuse to admit". Your headcanon does not make you right, it just makes you look stupid. You have no actual source supporting your claim that they aren't undead.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That sounds... exactly like mindless undead. For extra fun, there's a real fungus that does this. Luckily, i'm not an ant and The Last of Us is just a game.
    There are no undead in real life, you played too much Last of Us.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You mean "that i don't refuse to admit". Your headcanon does not make you right, it just makes you look stupid. You have no actual source supporting your claim that they aren't undead.
    What I just read: "im right and you are wrong because..mmmm...ahh..well...you are stupid"

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    There are no undead in real life, you played too much Last of Us.
    No, but the fungus actually is real. It just doesn't work on humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    What I just read: "im right and you are wrong because..mmmm...ahh..well...you are stupid"
    Which is why you're never going to be able to convince anybody.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, but the fungus actually is real. It just doesn't work on humans.



    Which is why you're never going to be able to convince anybody.
    My god, it was sarcasm, im trying to say that you argue like a kid.

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