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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and now in 8.3, whne they actualy USE two of the old world zones, people are complaining we didnt get new zone instead...
    There will be people will literally complain about anything, because they are looking for reasons to complain. You have to be able to tell whether people are doing this because they are pessimistic or even, dare I say it, toxic, or whether there are genuine problems with the game. Eventually it reaches a point at which it's pretty clear, but usually by then it's too late to fix entirely until the next expansion (which may be why we see "good expansion, bad expansion" cycles, ironically).

    Personally I think 8.3 is helping BFA tremendously, but it won't fix BFA's core problems. Unfortunately it's too little too late, so the game is going to suffer a bit until the next expansion. I've just come to accept that, and I am hoping Shadowlands will do better.

    So far, Blizzard is taking the startling view that they've made mistakes and are trying to improve the game by breathing life back into it, instead of pushing grindy content they hope will keep people subscribed or... whatever the hell their goal is.

    But I am digressing. The point is that there are always going to be people who are always complaining about anything and everything they can. This is just part of our culture now, it's definitely involving more than just this game. Classic, ironically, didn't help this because the community is divided even further. Any community that is around for more than a couple years will get this way, and trying to appease these kinds of people usually an effort in futility to begin with. Better to just try and make the game better for people who will enjoy it, instead of trying to please people who will complain about literally anything.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    He is in the position to change that for a long time already. He did not.
    He doesn't really dictate the entire direction of the game. The higher ups do and they aren't going to mess with a formula that's kept them at (nothing even remotely close) the #1 MMO for 15 years.

    Blame the board, not Ion.

    You're essentially blaming him for not changing the game to how you want it to be and therefore it's his fault the game is ruined for you, which is ridiculous.

    Honestly grow up.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    You're essentially blaming him for not changing the game to how you want it to be and therefore it's his fault the game is ruined for you, which is ridiculous.
    I am blaming him for wrecking the game. Means, he changed everything to worse. The subs drop and do not get back up. While classic showed how many people blizzard could address with the right design decisions.

    To me it seems, every design decision that elitist jerk ever did was based on his own bias, and how he wanted the game to be. And not how it would become successfull again.

    The idea the game lacks players because of lifecycle is ridiculous considering how many million players returned for classic.

    People want to play world of warcraft, it is just not offering the gameplay they want. So they leave.

    Everytime a new expac comes up, millions of players return to give blizzard a chance to do it right.

    Up to now, people left as fast as they subbed for a new expac. As blizzard does not really change the game. They just relable features. As like daily quests and world quests. It stays to be a chore. As like assaults and visions. As like Azerite Power and Corruption level. A number to enable a grind. That is how they should call it.
    Last edited by shaggawoolin; 2020-01-10 at 08:14 AM.

  4. #24
    Idk man, Ion only became game director in what, WoD? He was assistant game director before and befor that he was in charge of encounter design afaik.

    But I agree, I don't like the game's direction either. He or the lead designers are control freaks. The diablofication is due to the huge influx of Diablo devs from the failed Diablo 3 during late MoP, when most of the Blizzard dev's A-Team was moved to develop Overwatch they were replaced with Diablo devs.

    PS: I want my free camera distance back! I hate this ego shooter perspective camera. It's a pain in the ass.

  5. #25
    He and the wow team have turned WoW from the greatest mmorpg in the old classic formula, to basically “play the patch only” diablo 3 the mmo edition. It’s all seasonal, it’s all rng, none of it offers longevity and it’ll reset again next patch. Not next expansion, next patch. Rinse repeat.

    Ions team has turned it into diablo the mmo complete with different levels of difficulty so it’s one size fits all. When you try and appeal to everyone, you appeal to no one

    Ion may be the face of the failures but jay Wilson and the diablo 3 team that moved over to wow during WoD are all to blame to. Notice when they moved over, the game went from an mmorpg to basically diablo mmo

  6. #26
    I am confused.

    So the game is developing endgame content, allowing people to basically progress endlessly with M+ (until they reach their personal skill ceiling), adding raids in 4 difficulties to accomodate even the most casual player and somehow... that is a bad thing?

    I don't even understand what you mean with "focussing on the world"? You need more one-time quests to collect 15 bear asses or fox poo?

    On top of this BFA has begun to give a lot more story then previous expansions (a trend that Shadowlands will continue) and the WQ System from Legion onwards is much more vast daily system then we had before, so your rant about it all being about raids is wrong already.

    But you are right that the focus of the game is group content. As it should be in an MMO. If you want a beautifully build world to explore and quest in, I suggest finding a single-player game (Witcher 3 was on Steam Sale a few weeks ago, maybe still is, just saying).

    Arguably the high quality and quantity of the group content is the reason why WoW is still, after 15 bleedin years, the most succeful MMO on the market. It sure as hell is not the graphics of the game world.

    So from what I gather you should probably just look for a single-player game instead of ruining the fun for everyone and accusing Ion of destroying WoW, or if you are so against raids go play SWTOR, no need to worry about raids and dungeons there.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    I am blaming him for wrecking the game. Means, he changed everything to worse. The subs drop and do not get back up. While classic showed how many people blizzard could address with the right design decisions.
    Oh did not know you work for Blizzard. Sorry. Guess you must be if you know how the sub numbers are developing.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    The idea the game lacks players because of lifecycle is ridiculous considering how many million players returned for classic.
    1) The game does not lack players
    2) People returned to Classic for nostalgia and now they are leaving because they finished it. People without nostalgia went there to test it and are now leaving because it does not offer the QoL things that modern wow has. Only the most adamant hardcore players remain to grind whatever it is that can be grinded.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    People want to play world of warcraft, it is just not offering the gameplay they want. So they leave.
    Hmmm, which gameplay is it then that "they" (think you spelled "me" wrong) want?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    Everytime a new expac comes up, millions of players return to give blizzard a chance to do it right.

    Up to now, people left as fast as they subbed for a new expac. As blizzard does not really change the game. They just relable features. As like daily quests and world quests. It stays to be a chore. As like assaults and visions. As like Azerite Power and Corruption level. A number to enable a grind. That is how they should call it.
    You just do not understand how this works. The new expansion is always played by a lot more people then the constant player base. People that just want to play for story, to try it out, because they got it for Birthday/Christmas and so on. There will always be a part of that "New expansion crowd" that after a few months unsubs to play different things. That is completely normal, not everyone is cut out to be an MMO player and join a guild to play every day for years.
    The same thing happens with new patches, some people might only sub for a month to do the story and whatnot and then go again until the next patch.

    This does create fluctuations in sub numbers, but they do not have anything to do with the quality of the content and personally I am very happy that Blizzard caters to the people wanting to do group content and not to single-players.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2020-01-10 at 08:41 AM.

  7. #27
    While you can argue about other things i will at least say Class design has taken a nose dive since he has taken command of the ship, thats pretty undeniable.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    He or the lead designers are control freaks.
    They want to control the rewarding schedule for every single day it seems. They want to be able to plan which ilevel you have at day 30 after you bought the expac. That is the reason they added massive time gating.

    They want to control how much you play and what you play. They tell you you have to play everything and not just what you like. The devs, and foremost that incompetent elitist jerk who is the game director, should allow their players the freedom to chose themself if they want to run dungeons or stick to open world content only. They should allow people to play pvp only if they want. The themepark should not force you to use the duckling carousel but offer an option to have fun with it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I don't even understand what you mean with "focussing on the world"? You need more one-time quests to collect 15 bear asses or fox poo?
    Do you really confuse blizzards limited idea of what open world quests are with how great open world content really could be?

    Have you ever played any kind of single player open world games recently? And do you want to tell me they do not offer something else than collecting 15 bear asses?

    I tell you.. a really good game designer knows how to design a compelling open world experience. And the chore in WoW surely isnt that. And an elitist jerk number juggler and theorycrafter surely lacks the ability to design compelling world content as well. While i believe it should really be about the World in World of Warcraft. As a typical MMORPG is mainly about the world the players share.
    Last edited by shaggawoolin; 2020-01-10 at 08:27 AM.

  9. #29
    Before Ion Hazzikostas it was Tom Chilton, before Tom Chilton it was Greg Street

    Many people have ruined WoW

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    Well, classic was massively successfull, while people leveled their chars. No, it is not about endgame. It is about the path to endgame. It should be about both nowadays, and not being focused on endgame and endgame only.

    The world should have been developed and not been forgotten about. That was blizzards biggest mistake.
    That is my point, YOU say it should not be about only endgame but the journey but I say the opposite. I think the game turned out very nice, we (that played Vanilla) and you guys that play Classic have the journey there. Retail is the endgame platform with focus on that, so we have the best of two worlds. I would rather have it like this than Blizzard (with their track record) trying to make a stellar leveling experience AND endgame content AND pvp on that... there is no way they will succeed but all will turn into half-arsed crap!

    Keep Vanilla and Classic as the journey-game, keep Retail as the modern endgame platform and if ppl wanna experience a fullblown story, they should really consider a proper singleplayer game that is storydriven, rather than trying to squeeze it from an mmorpg where focus is to generate subs and a constant income of money.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawon View Post
    Keep Vanilla and Classic as the journey-game, keep Retail as the modern endgame platform
    What a bullshit consideriing the fact there will be no novelty on classic, as it is a museum and no ongoing development.

    Actually, retail is the place where the world should matter again. Classic novelty is over fast, as the dropping numbers show.

  12. #32
    It's all subjective. But you have to understand a few things.

    First of all, this is an MMO. For single player RPGs teams work for 4-5 years and then they provide a pretty polished game with amny features that keeps you engaged for up to 200 hours at best (some are in the 50 hours range).
    Then you have WoW - we get an expansion every 2 years and we expect constant updates every 6 months or so. We have people f all sorts, those who spend 5 hours a week on it and those who spend 6-10 hours a day in it. For the latter, you'd have to have to dish out a lot of content, because it's easily consumed.
    So of course there's no way we'll get new fresh content at that speed - it has to rely on repeating content (like M+, BGs). It also relies on other tactics, like having dailies, weeklies, different pacing (time gating).
    It also has to strike a balance for players - Blizz decided that it's not gonna be a game where someone who can play 50 hours a week will not be miles and miles ahead of someone who can only log in a few hours in 3 days a week. They can't give too much at one because some will feel overwhelmed.
    Because of how things are, you will never please everyone. The people who feel overwhelmed are unhappy cause they can't keep up, there's always a new "grind", they always have to keep up with gear. Others bemoan that grinds are not content and they want fresh new experiences every week. Others will say that there's nothing to do because they finished everything in the first few weeks.
    The people who play it have also changed a lot. People are older, have less time, have less desire to interact with others. Some people have a harder time making social connections. Some people don't have the time or willingness to be part of a group or guild. And then they complain that M+ ruins things, that the community is toxic - which mostly has one reason only (no guild or group of friends to play with and trying to play with strangers). This is one of the biggest reason people complain - they don't have people to play with and from the pov of a solo player, this definitely isn't the best the game.

    What I want to say is that this "wrecking" of WoW is highly subjective and depends on so many factors. Personally, I enjoy it - I have a guild group and friends to play with, I have enough time to raid and do other activities but I'm busier than I was 10 years ago so I limited my owen expectations of what I can do, I don't consume stuff too fast, I like having structure and not being overwhelmed, I like even having downtimes / breaks where I can catch up with achievements and collecting and I tend to enjoy all type of content. I don't want to sound pompous, but I'm the type of person this game is for. It's not for asocial people who can't form connections, it's not for those who have no time at all and want to treat it as a single player RPGs, it's not for those who want to play it as their single purpose in life for 10 hours a day. It's not for people who don't do any group content. Sure, these people can play it and enjoy it even, but they won't be completely happy with a fulltime subscription and they'll always be disappointed with something (the pace, the grind, the toxic pugging comunity etc).

  13. #33
    Yep. Seems like whoever is in the spotlight is who destroyed WoW. If Ion steps down, gets fired, laterally moves, whatever, it’s going to be the next person who destroyed WoW. I still remember when Ghostcrawler got all the blame for everything wrong with WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezminion View Post
    Before Ion Hazzikostas it was Tom Chilton, before Tom Chilton it was Greg Street

    Many people have ruined WoW
    This. Exactly this.

  14. #34
    Fun thread to read, it's obvious OP has no experience or knowledge about game design. Seems to be a poorly hidden classic > retail post.

    I mean, the OP even compared WoW world content to singleplayers RPG. Lmao. Sometimes I get baffled about the people who play/played this game.

    At least what the OP is saying is his opinion and not facts. Obviously. Would be weird if someone thought their opinion on something like this was actually a fact.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Yep. Seems like whoever is in the spotlight is who destroyed WoW. If Ion steps down, gets fired, laterally moves, whatever, it’s going to be the next person who destroyed WoW. I still remember when Ghostcrawler got all the blame for everything wrong with WoW.
    Ghostcrawler never was game director.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    there is many things that make wow sub numbers drop, but focus on endgame is simply not one, as it was focused on endgame pretty much from TBC...
    TBC was only about end game and see how well that went, 7.5 t 11.5 million players. You are entirely correct, end game is why WoW has been so popular from the start. If WoW was two years into the making now the game would have had more players. Age got something to do with it, its just how it is.

    The issue is not end game, but how blizzard deal with the other aspects of the game. It is in need of some drastical changes, but blizzard just don't want to do much about it. They had a good direction in Legion when they made a lot of solo stuff that was meaningful, the issue now seems to be how to top that with something new. In BfA I would wager raids and dungeons is what keeping the popularity up alone.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Wrath of The Bolvar too big for this forum. 10.0 confirmed?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    Ghostcrawler never was game director.
    Doesn’t change the fact he was the person who spoke to the gamers and got the brunt of “this is why the game is bad,” as well as being blamed for ruining the game.
    Jus like the other person I replied to brought up Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street being blamed. As well as Tom Chilton. Both of them received blame for making WoW bad, and the people that stepped up behind them, including Ion later, had people talking about how they will be so much better than the last.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Doesn’t change the fact he was the person who spoke to the gamers and got the brunt of “this is why the game is bad,” as well as being blamed for ruining the game.
    Well, the difference is that Ion Hazzikostas actually is in charge and responsible to where the game is heading.

    And actually, he does no discussion with any gamers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Jus like the other person I replied to brought up Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street being blamed.
    I am blaming the guy who is responsible.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by shaggawoolin View Post
    considering how many million players returned for classic
    The Classic argument gives you no credit. Yes, some people enjoy Classic. Some people enjoy Retail. Some people don't enjoy either and play FF14 or something else. This doesn't mean anything. If the game changed one way or the other it would attract different type of players, it wouldn't reunite ALL players.
    People return to things they know because it's human nature. In the exact same vein, a lot of people returned for WoD, because it was hyped like it would be a new TBC. It's human nature to come resee what you remember fondly. It's also human nature to flock around something hyped - so even some who never tried WoW at all came to see it.
    Of those returning or trying it, some really liked it and stayed, some are still playing, some got bored. I have friends who bought the physical collector box and then played it for about 4 days before getting bored. I also have friends who are still playing it - some are just leveling another char, a few are in raiding guilds. I myself really disliked it, I think it's meant for a different type of person (those who don't value their time as much as I do and think walking is a worthwhile activity; for example it's for people who can play it at work, so they don't feel bad they waste time).
    Dying on the altar of Classic it's being a little silly. We can't know how it would have been if WoW never existed and Classic released now for the very first time as it is, so we can't know this isn't some weird social phenomenon either.

  20. #40
    Remember Cataclysm, where all of Azeroth was redesinged... and nobody cared...

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