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  1. #21
    the difrence betwen making nightborne like blood elves is seen as logical, and not your delusions of them becoming like night elves (especialy druidic and elunite traits that we know for canon are not present in suramar and its people) its because suramar joined the horde, they chose the sindorei, who basicaly have the same culture and modern history, they continued their seperation that they themselves had started, once with the caste difrence betwen highborne and the common night elves, and when they cut themselves from the world.

    You basically say "its not cool to make them purple belves" bro they already are purple belves, thats why they are horde.
    If night elves and nightborne were in any way friendly towards each other what you constantly sugest might happen, but after teldrassil their allegiance to the horde makes such "exchange" impossible, night and void elves finding common ground is more likely.

    Also this whole thing is very superficial and ignores nightborne history " oh they were once night elves, they are purple and with moon imagery, they must be like alliance night elves" while ignoring what is put in front of you in favor of headcanon, like the "priestess were more magical and present in highborne places" that i saw in the middle of your massive paragraphs of waste, when we know for a fact all priestess fought agaist the legion and we have several examples ingame showing that the highborne abandoned elune in favor of the arcane.
    Last edited by yana; 2020-01-11 at 02:01 PM.

  2. #22
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    They really should have beefed up the night elf male model instead of what it looks like in-game.



    As it stands, illidan is the only night elf to have a form close to this original concept, and his is because of his fel transformation.

    Last edited by Trassk; 2020-01-11 at 02:44 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    They really should have beefed up the night elf male model instead of what it looks like in-ga

    As it stands, illidan is the only night elf to have a form close to this original concept, and his is because of his fel transformation.

    The new models for night elves made them even less ripped.. the demon hunter ones did restore some of the definition.

    However I wouldn't expect highborne models to be like that.

    The art concept is ofc for the demon hunter, and the bulk fits the class lore, you expect them to be at the peak of everything they do. the new WC3 reforged gives a bigger model for the druid of the claw. I do wonder if wow did allow different size m odels within races, that we'd probably have the option to choose a very muscular night elf for druids or a normal one (representing druids of the claw)

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    Quote Originally Posted by yana View Post
    the difrence betwen making nightborne like blood elves is seen as logical, and not your delusions of them becoming like night elves (especialy druidic and elunite traits that we know for canon are not present in suramar and its people) its because suramar joined the horde, they chose the sindorei, who basicaly have the same culture and modern history, they continued their seperation that they themselves had started, once with the caste difrence betwen highborne and the common night elves, and when they cut themselves from the world.

    You basically say "its not cool to make them purple belves" bro they already are purple belves, thats why they are horde.
    If night elves and nightborne were in any way friendly towards each other what you constantly sugest might happen, but after teldrassil their allegiance to the horde makes such "exchange" impossible, night and void elves finding common ground is more likely.

    Also this whole thing is very superficial and ignores nightborne history " oh they were once night elves, they are purple and with moon imagery, they must be like alliance night elves" while ignoring what is put in front of you in favor of headcanon, like the "priestess were more magical and present in highborne places" that i saw in the middle of your massive paragraphs of waste, when we know for a fact all priestess fought agaist the legion and we have several examples ingame showing that the highborne abandoned elune in favor of the arcane.
    You sound angry, especially every time you read about the night elven aspect of the nightborne, you talk about ignoring nightborne history, but to ignore the kaldorei root is ignoring their history, and failure to see who tehy are because they are allied with the horde is just being blind.

    Rant if that what you want (this ist he place to do it) but at least contribute something meaningful to the topic - why do you find it cool for them to be carbon copies of blood elves? What is the value in this? How will you distinguish this from the highborne night elves?

    Also judging from you second paragraph, I'm not sure if you forget we are talking about highborne differences with nightborne, not night elven druids differences with nightborne. And I wonder whether you think druidsm only exists for night elves and that Elune dooes not exist to nightborne - if you do proof, and if you don't you can at least show me why you feel this or why you would ant this.

    Just a little advise, if you rush into a topic getting angrier and angrier, you'd do well to calm down (it's only a video game), and actually read it objectively. It is not a self criticism of you, and no, I won't take your criticism of me personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    I disagree on the heritage armor part! But I have to say, its hard to pin down whats the most fitting heritage armor for nelfs. They have like 3-4 different armor styles that all are iconic for them.
    Night elves do have many options - they have some iconic pieces, Warden, huntrest, priestess, druid - there is no iconic highborne gear sadly as the units are never shown in one type of uniform, neither is it particularly interesting when you see it.

    I suspect they are gauging to see if they can get away with the very skimpy night elf sentinel/druid outfits we saw in WoT and Battle for Lordaeron opening BFA scenario.. looked great on females, looked terrible on the males - but might show too much skin for a video game. In which case the horrible classic sentinel armor might be what we get.
    @Rhidana It would seem wrong to give warden armor, because that's a very particular group.. The best thing they can do for Warden is give a special quest or path for night elf rogue characters to become one. Otherwise, I can't think of any other ngiht elf class or group that fits.

    In a granter scheme (certainly not during 9.0), I think blizz will double down on the notion that Kalimdor is filled with ferocious races and unconstrained nature and wildlife. Bringing the Saberons and the Botani with the Mag'har to Kalimdor was a deliberate choice.
    I've speculated so many times on what they might do. that is definitely a possibility, with the broken isles around, they can turn that into the night elf civilization zone, with Suramar already there and the y having pristine versions of all the ruins in Suramar, Azsuna and Val'sharah - leave Kalimdor for primal wild forest and fighting.. that could work. Feralas can be the one pocket of night elf civilization through the Darnassian highborne group, which can spread up to Desolace which ahs also a bunch of ruins they could repair.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Lol. Go ask Mr Beast to plant another tree for you.
    Alas, Sylvanas is gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhidana View Post
    I think with the shift of the Night Elves towards the Night Warrior and the vengeance aspect of Elune, Night elf Society should in future more focussed around their Warden Aspect, who were always one of the better parts of Night Elf Lore. I also feel like the Night Elf Heritage Armor should be a player Version of the Warden Armor.
    I would like that. There are many HD druid sets already.

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    I think this is a bad idea. Nightborne shouldn't become more similar to night elves. Horde has tauren for that. What nightborne need is to connect closer to blood elves and Forsaken and form a civilised enclave in the Horde.

    Also, blood elves will become different from nightborne anyway as Blizzard pushes the "light elves" so hard.
    Last edited by matrix123mko; 2020-01-11 at 04:39 PM.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The new models for night elves made them even less ripped.. the demon hunter ones did restore some of the definition.

    However I wouldn't expect highborne models to be like that.

    The art concept is ofc for the demon hunter, and the bulk fits the class lore, you expect them to be at the peak of everything they do. the new WC3 reforged gives a bigger model for the druid of the claw. I do wonder if wow did allow different size m odels within races, that we'd probably have the option to choose a very muscular night elf for druids or a normal one (representing druids of the claw)

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    You sound angry, especially every time you read about the night elven aspect of the nightborne, you talk about ignoring nightborne history, but to ignore the kaldorei root is ignoring their history, and failure to see who tehy are because they are allied with the horde is just being blind.

    Rant if that what you want (this ist he place to do it) but at least contribute something meaningful to the topic - why do you find it cool for them to be carbon copies of blood elves? What is the value in this? How will you distinguish this from the highborne night elves?

    Also judging from you second paragraph, I'm not sure if you forget we are talking about highborne differences with nightborne, not night elven druids differences with nightborne. And I wonder whether you think druidsm only exists for night elves and that Elune dooes not exist to nightborne - if you do proof, and if you don't you can at least show me why you feel this or why you would ant this.

    Just a little advise, if you rush into a topic getting angrier and angrier, you'd do well to calm down (it's only a video game), and actually read it objectively. It is not a self criticism of you, and no, I won't take your criticism of me personally.

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    Night elves do have many options - they have some iconic pieces, Warden, huntrest, priestess, druid - there is no iconic highborne gear sadly as the units are never shown in one type of uniform, neither is it particularly interesting when you see it.

    I suspect they are gauging to see if they can get away with the very skimpy night elf sentinel/druid outfits we saw in WoT and Battle for Lordaeron opening BFA scenario.. looked great on females, looked terrible on the males - but might show too much skin for a video game. In which case the horrible classic sentinel armor might be what we get.
    @Rhidana It would seem wrong to give warden armor, because that's a very particular group.. The best thing they can do for Warden is give a special quest or path for night elf rogue characters to become one. Otherwise, I can't think of any other ngiht elf class or group that fits.


    I've speculated so many times on what they might do. that is definitely a possibility, with the broken isles around, they can turn that into the night elf civilization zone, with Suramar already there and the y having pristine versions of all the ruins in Suramar, Azsuna and Val'sharah - leave Kalimdor for primal wild forest and fighting.. that could work. Feralas can be the one pocket of night elf civilization through the Darnassian highborne group, which can spread up to Desolace which ahs also a bunch of ruins they could repair.
    models, being in the horde, having an esoteric fashion sense, being the dominant culture of their race, not having any conections to elune or nature, and having a difrent path to development since they are not night elves and are learning from other races of the horde, and its not making them purple belves, they have been from the very start of their questline that is a mirror to what blood elves went trough with their addiction and being sold to the legion.
    I recomend less time being condescending, and more time fixing gramatical mistakes and writing to provide with actual information that presents an understandable argument, not walls of gibberish with no logical argumentation.

    just because you write a lot of words, doesnt mean you are saying much valuable. My highschool teacher once told me
    Last edited by yana; 2020-01-11 at 05:31 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I suspect they are gauging to see if they can get away with the very skimpy night elf sentinel/druid outfits we saw in WoT and Battle for Lordaeron opening BFA scenario.. looked great on females, looked terrible on the males - but might show too much skin for a video game. In which case the horrible classic sentinel armor might be what we get.
    Sentinel armor is the best choice, but I would like something that is inspired by the WC3: reforged stuff

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by yana View Post
    models, being in the horde, having an esoteric fashion sense, being the dominant culture of their race, not having any conections to elune or nature, and having a difrent path to development since they are not night elves and are learning from other races of the horde, and its not making them purple belves, they have been from the very start of their questline that is a mirror to what blood elves went trough with their addiction and being sold to the legion.

    Granted this is your opinion, None of what you say here is about the topic, and I asked you to contribute - mainly because arguing with your post would derail the topic. I'll say this to the above:

    Your saying so isn't proof yana, it isn't hard to show there is far more in common, linking, and connecting nightborne and night elves to make any counter argument of this in favour of blood elves over night elves
    false
    and a waste of time. Sharing mana addiction isn't even unique to the nightborne and blood elves, its an elven problem starting with the night elves. ALL night elves experienced withdrawal from addiction after the sundering, including Darth'remar's lot, and the highborne shen'dralar also experienced this (read their chronicles entry). The problem first arises with the night elves, but it is the blood elf addiction that is shown in-game as a feature, the nightborne one isn't even a mirror of it, it is the inverse, the night elven version exploring that group's issue of taking the pre-sundering addiction further - the developers outright said so: People happily ignore all of the night elf lore from creation to sundering as some different race, yet it is not the highborne or kaldorei that are different, it's the high elves and nightborne. All the commaonalities nightborne share wtih blood elves, they share with highborne and night elves and have a lot of other things in common too.




    Quote Originally Posted by yana View Post
    I recomend less time being condescending, and more time fixing gramatical mistakes and writing to provide with actual information that presents an understandable argument, not walls of gibberish with no logical argumentation.

    But if you can't understand what I am saying then why are you even responding to gibberish?

    Quote Originally Posted by yana View Post
    just because you write a lot of words, doesnt mean you are saying much valuable. My highschool teacher once told me

    The "lots of words" was for your benefit. I believe I am wasting my time here. You don't even read what I write.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-11 at 06:11 PM.

  8. #28
    The Highborne during the WoW timeline were mostly isolated in ruins, keeping to books like how we saw with those in Dire Maul. Things like inscription and scrolls and book-keeping would be very important in their society, not just in an arcane sense but also in a societal sense them being a very bookish and scholarly people would be a very big focus of the race, I think. There would probably be a portion of them that are very keen to archaeology and maintaining these old ruins, or researching other old ruins. With all the various ruins we see across Azeroth, the Highborne have certainly migrated a lot over the years. So something that's pretty keen to them is also being a more nomadic tribe of elves. Something that other elves don't really do - other elves have decided capitols and never really stray very far from them and have these huge epicenters of magic and culture and buildings whereas with the Highborne it would be a lot of smaller ruins periodically littering wherever they travel.

    The Highborne are born of a higher caste and of a pure bloodline, would mean that their elven characteristics and features would be exaggerated with any similarity to their original troll ancestry completely missing. Losing all their teeth and becoming completely herbivorous, they would need to be able to grow and maintain crops while traveling. Picking up your farm in a literal sense, or potted plants, is probably something they have to do quite regularly. I probably wouldn't put it past a common depiction of a Highborne to tend to some potted plants while writing in a scroll how yet another ruin was the result of magical folly. Considering what remaining Highborne cast themselves away into hiding due to taboos of exploring magic, but also not siding with Azshara and all the magic that entails, means the Highborne are pretty open to study but probably pretty strict in practice. A lot of their personality probably comes with them being skittish, outright twitching in fear of the sight of magic and feeling helpless in the face of it to the point of a lot of them experiencing some manner of post-traumatic-stress disorder. I'd probably also expect a lot of Highborne also experience a lot of survivor's guilt. But because they have to try and keep up appearances despite all the nomadic traveling and uplifting their homes all the time and trying to constantly search over ruins of past mistakes, the Highborne would have all this going on as well.

    I wouldn't expect the Highborne to really have a military in the sense of a devoted Sentinel or Warden program. What warriors they do have are probably scrappy and taught in a manner similar to how we probably saw in Bloodhoof village where the Tauren had those training circles. I probably wouldn't see it beyond the Highborne to have delved into some amount of Shamanism if they've been at the nomad angle long enough. The highest of their culture may even be shamans or shadow hunters (they have history with glaives anyway), and they may have even befriended other races of nomads.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Sentinel armor is the best choice, but I would like something that is inspired by the WC3: reforged stuff
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post

    How did you shrink the image size in the post?

    I suspect that is the armor we will get. It's a damn shame only one version exists.. I remember hoping for other types of the nightborne armor, like the NPC one here I took of my character:



    The male on the right, that would have been cool to have. And sigh, if only the nightborne female in-game models looked more like this:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    --snip---(for brevity)


    Big sigh of relief, finally a response focused entirely on aspects of the topic and sharing your view. Big thanks. Let's dig in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The Highborne during the WoW timeline were mostly isolated in ruins, keeping to books like how we saw with those in Dire Maul. Things like inscription and scrolls and book-keeping would be very important in their society, not just in an arcane sense but also in a societal sense them being a very bookish and scholarly people would be a very big focus of the race, I think. There would probably be a portion of them that are very keen to archaeology and maintaining these old ruins, or researching other old ruins. With all the various ruins we see across Azeroth, the Highborne have certainly migrated a lot over the years. So something that's pretty keen to them is also being a more nomadic tribe of elves. Something that other elves don't really do - other elves have decided capitols and never really stray very far from them and have these huge epicenters of magic and culture and buildings whereas with the Highborne it would be a lot of smaller ruins periodically littering wherever they travel.



    The scholar, intellectual magician is certainly one of the core features of the Shen'dralar group based on their description. This I have always argued means their arcane knowledge and mastery must be exceptional as they've been at this for 10k years post sundering, and they had an intact city like the Suramar night elves but unlike the rest of the night elves who gathered to Mount Hyjal.

    They are also described as Queen Azshara's most revered arcanists - highlighting them as a very distinguished and pristigous group. "processing the Queens top demands, often in secret" - implies not only capability but a sense of being the architects of many of the wonders the Queen used to wow her people - I think of them l ike the eureka city of the night elven empire (if you've watched the Syfy channel Eureka - a small city of geniuses who had both scientific and tech advancements ahead of everyone else, with only the highest officials in the US givernement being aware of their work).

    This is something blizzard can use to incredible effect, through the shen'dralar being part of the night elves, they have precedence (not that it is necessary) and an easy route to restore advanced arcane civilizations to the kaldorei group on the alliance if they want - now the way I imagine it is that the highborne will now build the night elf cities and mainly occupy them, the priests would have an amazing temple, but the druids and a lot of the non-highborne night elves would live in the vast forests Even with an advanced city, they'd still be a minority, but the ngiht elves would at least have a night elven cool city.


    Ruins: They've been in ruins for a 1000 years, but i'm not sure they've been scavenging around them, they might have been, the lore says they've been scrying on the world, and obsessed with knowledge they've gathered which could imply archaology, their city has only been in ruins for about 1,000 years. This si where we must think beyond the artwork we are showed, When Dire maul is designed, the pre-sundering architecture seen in Suramar and Zin'Azshari is not around yet,if they were to remake Eldre'thalas, expect it to look more like Suramar and Zin'Azshari than its current form, just like all those night elf ruins will look different - they're oldart, we must go by the latest revisions of the art.

    I imagined them as being too focused on sucking magic from immol'thar and study research in their city to venture out much, if Eldre'thalas is ever rebuilt I expect the West wing, especially Immol'thar's containment area and the palace library to be pretty much like Suramar, in a near pristine condition but I don't now, the current depiction is what we have, and they seem to not care in their addiction whether their city is falling apart, only more knowledge and mana. This is in sharp contrast to a few years later, in cataclysm, free of addiction, and they are very keen to restore the city to its original glory [Estulan quests].


    One must contrast how 1,000 years of ruins may influence shen'dralar development over nightborne development. Albeint compared to the preceeding 9 millennia, 1 millennia is not a long time, but the difference between Dire maul and Suramar is night and day, and the conditions were different too. Eldre'thalas was scrying on the world the whole way (necessary for their protection off course, but more for knowledge), Suramar was in a bubble, completely isolated, nothing changed from before the sundering, in fact all the changes in what would be called nightborne society are already present before the Sundering. The nightwell is already created, Elisande has leadership over the city that is in full rebellion from their queen. Once they seal up, life goes back to normal for the highborne caste. There is no priest caste since the Order left with Tyrande to go fight Azshara. This would affect the non-highborne lives a lot more, but for the highborne in that city, they probably have no opposition or competing caste. Tings pretty much say culturally the ame till Gul'dan approaches. Some advances are made, but they are slow and limited over the 10 millennia. We don't know the advances the shen'dralar made, but without the same luxuries and restrictions, I expect they'd have made a lot of theoretical advancements, but little resource and space to freely experiement and test out - with watchful druids and dragons not far away. They also have the advantage of gleaning high elven and human advancements although as a city that was intact after the sundering having no loss of knowledge unlike the high elves and darnassians, they'd be leaps and bounds ahead, and more interested in exotic knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The Highborne are born of a higher caste and of a pure bloodline, would mean that their elven characteristics and features would be exaggerated with any similarity to their original troll ancestry completely missing. Losing all their teeth and becoming completely herbivorous, they would need to be able to grow and maintain crops while traveling. Picking up your farm in a literal sense, or potted plants, is probably something they have to do quite regularly. I probably wouldn't put it past a common depiction of a Highborne to tend to some potted plants while writing in a scroll how yet another ruin was the result of magical folly. Considering what remaining Highborne cast themselves away into hiding due to taboos of exploring magic, but also not siding with Azshara and all the magic that entails, means the Highborne are pretty open to study but probably pretty strict in practice. A lot of their personality probably comes with them being skittish, outright twitching in fear of the sight of magic and feeling helpless in the face of it to the point of a lot of them experiencing some manner of post-traumatic-stress disorder. I'd probably also expect a lot of Highborne also experience a lot of survivor's guilt. But because they have to try and keep up appearances despite all the nomadic traveling and uplifting their homes all the time and trying to constantly search over ruins of past mistakes, the Highborne would have all this going on as well.


    I like this detail, nice visualisation, there is more too. I don't think the non-highborne kaldorei would be any closer to troll, wihle blizzard did stretch the long ears similarities, the night elvesdo look very different from trolls already, I just think the highborne wwould likely be the more consistently prettier version of the night elves. So if they were two separate character creation screens, the night elves would have some less pretty faces mixed in with the pretty ones, maybe a crooked eyebrow, whereas the highborne would only have pretty faces, straight eyebrows etc.

    AS for the rest, yes, you make some good point, and this would be in contrast to the nightborne who'd be in the same bold utterly confident and carefree about their magic. The high elves are notedt o have been very strict with magic control and regulation, we know they had to hide their magic signature, and the Bin'dinoriel were constructed by for that. When I first went through the story, I always felt the reason why the high elves are astounded with the humans capability is because the humans had no fear of magic usage having no idea of the burning legion and the potential danger of that variety wielding magic could. I also imagine elven children very well trained and informed about the danger, but human society has more rebellious children and less vigilant teachers, with the freedom of testing the limits and getting a thrill from it. This also makes the high elf quite reserved and strict, but the blood elf by contrast, who threw off all the "shackles" and restrictions, the hesitation and the reservedness, the over cautiousness (think of Jewish society with the over regulation of everything concerning the Torah) and you are in the ball park for High elves and highborne. I would expect highborne to be a bit bolder during their isolation though.

    But this makes me think Highborne and High elves would have that commonality albeit for very different reasons, while nightborne and blood elves who for their own very different reasons have that bolder more aggressive approach.

    I appreciate the delve into the highborne too. Because we know much more about the nightborne thanks to WotA novel and 7.0 - Suramar is huge in night elf arcane lore. no such time was given to Eldre'thalas - which is why the door is open there.

    Another caveat is that the shen'dralar aren't the only highborne. We must factor in the Darnassian additions. Both in new trainees who'd becoming from the long vigil culture, and also former highborne amongst the Darnassians who respected the magic ban and stayed with the kaldorei in the long vigil, giving up their titles, some of them becoming druids then returning in Cataclysm when the shen'dralar took the reins and the ban was lifted. All who the shen'dralar train become highborne we are told, old and new too, they join the group and that culture.

    Would love to see how blizzard expand on that later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I wouldn't expect the Highborne to really have a military in the sense of a devoted Sentinel or Warden program. What warriors they do have are probably scrappy and taught in a manner similar to how we probably saw in Bloodhoof village where the Tauren had those training circles. I probably wouldn't see it beyond the Highborne to have delved into some amount of Shamanism if they've been at the nomad angle long enough. The highest of their culture may even be shamans or shadow hunters (they have history with glaives anyway), and they may have even befriended other races of nomads


    You are right, they wouldn't, however their main focus since forming would be military, as that is the greatest need during the cataclysm, and well war continued. MoP and WoD would have been years of reprieve - but we see fully trained Darnassian Highborne operating all the alliance portals and most of the magic needs in WoD - when we next see them in legion, the night elven highborne and void elves make up the majority of the casters, there are human ones though in the assault. Arathi warfront has human units mainly ofc, being in human lands, but in Kul'tiras and Zandalar they are mostly elven.

    The Moonguard could provide an official military wing for the highborne now that they are in play after being rescued in 7.0, however the Moonguard affiliation is unknown, they were allies to the nightborne in 7.0, but then so were the Darnassians, if blizzard decides to splkit them on a racial basis, you can expect the Moonguard remnant to at some point be officially a part of the Highborne.

    I don't see Highborne delving into shamanism at all, the reason I say this is that magecraft can wield the elements via the arcane, and the level of knowledge amongst the highborne is far higher than the average magical knowledge. Same with the nightborne. The world mages search the world for scraps that these two groups would have had free access to isolated in their cities for 9k years. I believe some knowledge would have been unwittingly lost to the horde when the shen'dralar were driven out..

    But for a group for whom knowledge is the most precious and passionate commodity, do you think they'd have left any thing behind? No, in fact I think they'd have very sophisticated ways of storing, retrieving, assimilating and accumulating knowledge, this would have been more precious than any belongings, even the clothes on their back. what they would not be able to take are big objects and devices.

    In other words, these guys don't need the elemental spirits to control air/water, earth or fire, they can use the arcane to produce them, this is the group that invented the mage class, and their level of knowledge and exploits are legendary - the lost knowledge of the highborne is still very valuable to mages all around the world, whether Kirin'tor or reliquary - the addition of the highborne shen'daralar to the night elves and the nightborne to the blood elves is a huge boon to magical study because of the knowledge they possses.

    if they were ever to give elves the shaman class, it would have a different identity, they'd be mages, likely trained by Moonguard and Duskguard to wield the elements through the arcane. Arcane focuses would be their version of totems - arcane objects of power that stare magical energy and simple spell mechanisms the Moonguard employed in certain combat scenarios (and by extension the Duskguard which is the nightborne version - as they derive from the moonguard that stayed in the city to protect it - we see Moonguard leaders send you to Suramar to retrieve item from a student who remained in the city, we also are told the focus of the attack on Moonguard Stronghold to retrieve many items of power - obviously valuable to the Nightwell enhanced nightborne under Elisande or they wouldn't need - interesting how the Moonguard though nearly wiped out, take out far more of the nightborne than the other way around, and the nightwell was still up then)
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-11 at 07:06 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    if they were ever to give elves the shaman class, it would have a different identity, they'd be mages, likely trained by Moonguard and Duskguard to wield the elements through the arcane. Arcane focuses would be their version of totems - arcane objects of power that stare magical energy and simple spell mechanisms the Moonguard employed in certain combat scenarios (and by extension the Duskguard which is the nightborne version - as they derive from the moonguard that stayed in the city to protect it - we see Moonguard leaders send you to Suramar to retrieve item from a student who remained in the city, we also are told the focus of the attack on Moonguard Stronghold to retrieve many items of power - obviously valuable to the Nightwell enhanced nightborne under Elisande or they wouldn't need - interesting how the Moonguard though nearly wiped out, take out far more of the nightborne than the other way around, and the nightwell was still up then)
    One possible reason I would see for them to maybe incorporate Shamanism is that the Arcane inherently from different cultures is seen as corruptive in the Warcraft universe and setting, and the Highborne have plenty of examples over the years to draw that conclusion from. The elements always seek balance, so as a way to check themselves and to prevent catastrophe like all other elves before them, it seems to me that Shamanism would be something they would be interested in as not only a way to meet the needs of the power they need but also as a way of limiting themselves so they don't destroy themselves or possibly even any other allies they might have. It may be, in a way, a self-limiter, a way of making sure they're less dangerous and don't end up causing some kind of world-breaking event. They may even feel responsible for a lot of the calamity that the world undergoes even now, and may seek to find their own form of redemption by healing the world of the damage elves have wrought to it... which would be perfect, because of course, they're the Highborne, that level of self-righteous arrogance may be relevant there as well. It would also make for fun interactions with elementals. Highborne lowering themselves to elementals while also posturing themselves higher than others is kind of amusing.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    ALL night elves experienced withdrawal from addiction after the sundering, including Darth'remar's lot, and the highborne shen'dralar also experienced this (read their chronicles entry).
    Thats simply not true, it only affected the highborn and probably "low born" night elf mages.

    Regarding the topic if night elf gets shamans.... cataclysm was the perfect opportunity and it passed. While I like to play more classes with nelf, it also homogenizes them, I think shamanism is not a aspect that adds anything interesting that druidism not already provide, also shamans and their elementals not long ago helped burning many night elfs and their tree, robbed them of their home.

    Shen'dralar should not be shamans, in a sense, they were more reckless then a lot of other highborn even experimenting with void powers in the past (granted some Zin'Azshari mages did some pretty evil stuff). They are mages in their hearth, and they do what ever is necessary, they keep their secret knowledge. They are still pretty arrogant and try to make it look like they are still the most important persons but they don't have any special title anymore or aristocratic rank. If anything, Shen'dralar should be able to be warlocks.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2020-01-11 at 08:25 PM.

  12. #32
    Some night elves should go to Telogrus Rift and establish an alliance with the Ren'dorei. We already see that Umbric and Shandris get along very well in the War Campaign in 8.0, I'd like to see that go somewhere. That way you could go crazy and make NE Warlocks playable. Maybe some of the more shady individuals of the Ren'dorei could teach those dark secrets to the night elves, who could train in sorcery away from the law (since they are on a broken world in literally the middle of the Void). Also NE Warlocks could be the more radical side of the night elves, who embrace the darker and more destructive side of Elune to cause havoc amongst those who wronged their ancient race in the past.

    Would you like NE Warlocks OP?
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post

    Would you like NE Warlocks OP?
    I'm not the OP, but i would. lol

  14. #34
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post
    Actually I think the Shen'dralar are far more interesting that you give them credit. They are the only group of Highborne that willingly chose to integrate themselves into post-sundering Night Elf society (even the ancestors of the High Elves eventually rebelled). Exploring the potential reconciliation of limited arcane magic use with the nature-based values of the Long Vigil is far better than just making them carbon copies of the Nightborne. And again I'm against any attempt to have identical races on both sides of the faction divide.
    I agree. The Highborne may have rejoined the Night Elf society, but they really are a minority that will only dwindle in time. The new mages they are training are not new Highborne. They are Night Elves born in a druidic society. Sooner rather than later, these new mages will outnumber the Shen'dralar. No need to give the Highborne a new model. What they need to do is give Night Elven mages their own personality, different from the Kirin Tor, different from the Blood Elves and the Nightborne. They are environmentalist mages. Their preoccupation should be : "What exactly is arcane magic impact on nature? Can we use it to nurture life as the Well of Eternity did? How and at what risk? The leylines are the veins and arteries of our world. What impact does the manipulation of leylines have on nature? Is there a way to use magic to minimize that impact? Is there a way to minimize magic addictive properties? etc." That can be shown through quests and characters. Not new models.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    One possible reason I would see for them to maybe incorporate Shamanism is that the Arcane inherently from different cultures is seen as corruptive in the Warcraft universe and setting, and the Highborne have plenty of examples over the years to draw that conclusion from. The elements always seek balance, so as a way to check themselves and to prevent catastrophe like all other elves before them, it seems to me that Shamanism would be something they would be interested in as not only a way to meet the needs of the power they need but also as a way of limiting themselves so they don't destroy themselves or possibly even any other allies they might have. It may be, in a way, a self-limiter, a way of making sure they're less dangerous and don't end up causing some kind of world-breaking event. They may even feel responsible for a lot of the calamity that the world undergoes even now, and may seek to find their own form of redemption by healing the world of the damage elves have wrought to it... which would be perfect, because of course, they're the Highborne, that level of self-righteous arrogance may be relevant there as well. It would also make for fun interactions with elementals. Highborne lowering themselves to elementals while also posturing themselves higher than others is kind of amusing.
    Any other route to shamanism in its current form for them? I have trouble seeing the highborne as viewing teh arcane as corruptive - They will reationally conclude like they did after the sundering, taht excessive use is addictive and thus corrupting and accept the view that balance is mandatory to retain your sanity and character.

    As such I feel they will pursue riding the knife's edge to maximise arcane usage while minimising side effects and avoiding imbalance and addiction. Elven magic usage comes from their love for it. They are born fromt eh arcane. Their lore has them with that origin, and even when their beneovlent nature loving side draws cenarius to them, after a while they got a bit bored and seek for more, leaning towards the arcane more and more, (I would imagine this gts faster and more intense) and it comes a point when their mastery outstirps anything they were achieving through nature magic skewing the whole of their race towards t hat. In the long vigil, after a break from teh arcane, they would have returned to it soon enough, if not only a few years or decaes, that he prohibiting factor was the Legion's return. This was the deterrent to wielding the arcane that allowed them to go for 3,000 years without it (darth'remar's group) and 10k years without it, but ass soon as it is allowed again, the elves are back at using their magic - night elves too.

    In warcraft the arcane can be corruptive, but also beneficial, the biggest danger is addiction, and the reason, prevention and cure for it is already devised now finally in Legion, thanks to the valewalker order and the druid Farodin. With the arcane primarily benefitting them, and the highbornea re the groups biggest advocates and practiioners not only amongst the night elves, but globally - it's hard to see them resorting to shamanism.


    The requirement for balance iwoul likely be incorporated from druidsm, and it's a good point you make, "checking themselves to prevent catastrophe" but i think they will use nature and the pricniples of the balance druid and the Valewalkers in seeking that balance. I view them as maes who would wield elemental magic responsible and with respect for the total whole.

    This could be a distinguishing factor between them and the nightborne. It is believable because the Highborne would have a stronger druidic influence around them, absent or minimal in nightborne culture. This would be done carefullyand precisely, Ijust struggle to see any elf beseeching the elements.. the closest might be some druid night elves who focus in on elemental effects - but at a stretch, because their racea nd culture have alternatives. It is not inconceivable, it is just hard to believe without more. When i think of night elven shaman - I think an arcane elemental wielder or a druid off shoot, which is more likely, and my mind jummps to the former.

    I however believe the rest of your assessment to be accurate. I think the highborne are now goodly folk, regretful of their past actions and excesses, band this is because they are free of addiction. the lore hints on the addiction as the agent that warps theirotherwise pristine morality and character. The image of hte night elf in the pre-sundering era is near perfect - benevolent, very highly intelligent, gifted, diligent etc - then how do you get to what Azshara became and the highborne? The lore tells you, addiction to the arcane and the Queen playing favourites got the caste arrogant.

    And while the lowering to elementals would be amusing, i think even in humility they would not consider an elemental an equal. Totally different to the wild gods however, who have been in night elf life from the very early days and have always been beings of immense power, wielding a magic that the arcane can't generate (we don't see the arcane generating nature like it does fire, air, water, earth - but it does enhance nature). I can see the highborne revering Cenarius and Marlone, worshiping (though not being a devotee of Elune), or at least respecting those who follow them because of their exploits (tyrande and Malfurion are incredibly powerful beings, no mage can deny that or scoff at their power - these night elves took down Queen Azshara at the height of her power - and we see them very respectful to Malfurion and Tyrande in Wolfheart). I think they see the elemntals as tools, and they will view themselves as the masters who will maintain the order.

    This could be a potential source of scorn from shamanistic races who respects the elements idea of balance. But we don't really know much about that, these shaman tend to view things like floods, earthquakes, volcanoes as the elements out of balance. A shaman will try to appease the elements and find out why they are troubled, an elven elemental wielder migh t also find the source of the distrubance, but he will use the arcane to generate the elemental forces he needs to solve it and take action via arcane means to summon or banish elementals. Remember mages also summon elementals they enslave. Now we know elementals are neither good or bad in Warcraft, they are impersonal entities you figure out. An elemental is not in pain if you summon and bind it, you just figured out its rules. Now you can create an imbalance if you over do it, that's different. The elements can also be enraged from certain activities, and sometimes your best solution is someone who understands how to deal or interact with them.

    If an elven arcane user that wields elements ever gets to that stage, he will do it from the arcane origin, rather than the shamanistic religion origin - i.e. they may develop certain wings that are particularly trained at dealing with elemental situations, who understand it's more than a matter of simply banishing or summoning/enslaving an elemental or using the arcane to produce fire/wind/air/water - they understand the causes of unrest in the elemntals and how to solve them, and can more effectively use the elemnts to augment their power, they in effect deal with elements exhibiting shamanic skills or effectively the same thing but from a different root - and this is how you have elven shaman.

    Highborne, more keen on studying balance from the elemental perspective, wilding the elemnts via the arcane, but also experts with handling and solving problems with the elemnts and balance . They don't use totems, instead they use arcane constructs and focuses to contain power, but they can summon and unleash elementals including elemnal ascension etc.. I would accept that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Thats simply not true, it only affected the highborn and probably "low born" night elf mages.
    The Sundering novel says otherwise. The highborne were the most affected, but not the only ones affected.

    so called lowborne were also arcane usiers, the whole society was, however they weren't arrogant and still revered the wilds as well. But they were arcane users. You ccan be an arcane user, an even great and prolific one and still revere the worlds, and believe in the goddess, just like you have scientists who are Christian, very good oens and definitely respect nature.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Some night elves should go to Telogrus Rift and establish an alliance with the Ren'dorei. We already see that Umbric and Shandris get along very well in the War Campaign in 8.0, I'd like to see that go somewhere. That way you could go crazy and make NE Warlocks playable. Maybe some of the more shady individuals of the Ren'dorei could teach those dark secrets to the night elves, who could train in sorcery away from the law (since they are on a broken world in literally the middle of the Void). Also NE Warlocks could be the more radical side of the night elves, who embrace the darker and more destructive side of Elune to cause havoc amongst those who wronged their ancient race in the past.

    Would you like NE Warlocks OP?
    I agree with night elf /void elf ties. I really do, I'd like to see that. I don't think it should be the route to Nelf Warlocks.. I just can't see any Darnassian going there, but there is another root, the Illidari, I can definitely seeing htem be or having something that is essentially a warlock.. it is similar but not exactly (just like TIdesages aren't exactly shaman, and Blood Knights were a unique type of paladin for a while), they'd likely have a name, like Fel Lord - and essentially be the warlock class with green fire as the default. Night elves who click on Warlock get the Illidari customisation, exactly the same as demon hunters.

    It's optional if they want to tweak the demon hunter start to become an Illidari start for both DHs and NElf Warlocks. Also up to them if glide is possible on the warlock, but it would be easy to disable.


    Blood elves can have the customisation available on the warlock class in addition to the full range of blood elf options. If high elves are ever added, like night elves, their warlock class would only use the Fel elf Illidari model:


    As for the ren'dorei and kaldorei - they can have as many as 3 links. FIrst and most obvious is the highborne connection, the shen'dralar and other darnassian highborne will have no problem with their thalassian kin and vice versa, it was not the shen'dralar that exiled the high elves. Also ren'dorei studies would interest some, could cause them to be wary.

    2nd connection is via Elune - Black Moon fighters use void magic, and the dark side of the moon is a void / arcane state, which would greatly interest the void elves. The attraction to the priesthood is perhaps being better suited to undergo and cope with the transition, the void elves unique training and ability with the void could be of mmuch interest to the Black Moon and vice versa.

    3rd would be to create a druid connection. Currently one doesn't exist, so I would create one. As the EMerald dream has had a lot of trouble fighting the nightmare and void aberrations, the void elves are keen to help and the druids are open to ideas. Could be the source of void elf druids too resulting from efforts to bolster defences in the emerald dreams, and void elves trained in void and nature also joining the druids in Emerald dream duty, and this is how the emerald dream is finally secure. Void elves aim to use the void to save the world, and nature is a big part of the world, so it is natural that they would be interested in these. I could get on board with that.

    4th - Illidari - now I don't see void elves having any problems with the illidari either. void and fel are quite common in wielders of demon power, and ofc the arcane runes are a necessity for demon hunters. Wanna bet not only would these two get along without judging (the edgy dudes - but could pave the way for void elf demon hunters if they ever extend the class)

    Overall, appealing to every major aspect of the night elves.




  16. #36
    I feel like the Ren'dorei-Kaldorei alliance would serve as a perfect foil for the Sin'dorei-Shal'dorei alliance. Ren'dorei and Kaldorei are both ambitious races who defy all laws to get what they want, they value freedom above everything else and serve as a perfect foil for the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei, who have a much more lawful and dogmatic society.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I agree. The Highborne may have rejoined the Night Elf society, but they really are a minority that will only dwindle in time. The new mages they are training are not new Highborne. They are Night Elves born in a druidic society. Sooner rather than later, these new mages will outnumber the Shen'dralar. No need to give the Highborne a new model. What they need to do is give Night Elven mages their own personality, different from the Kirin Tor, different from the Blood Elves and the Nightborne. They are environmentalist mages. Their preoccupation should be : "What exactly is arcane magic impact on nature? Can we use it to nurture life as the Well of Eternity did? How and at what risk? The leylines are the veins and arteries of our world. What impact does the manipulation of leylines have on nature? Is there a way to use magic to minimize that impact? Is there a way to minimize magic addictive properties? etc." That can be shown through quests and characters. Not new models.
    All in all, a good response, interesting questions, I have some disagreements but also additional and supporting points, and exporations of what you have said, do not interpret my reply below as an attack. regard it objectively and with curiosity rather than condescension. I have to say this because my manner of speech sometimes mis-interpreted.

    Firstly: Here is what I disagree with you and the Tharivor's post you quote:


    1. @Tharivor - the ship has already sailed on limited arcane use re-integration, in Wolfheart, the conidions of the highborne alliance is no restriction on magic, to restrict is also silly and hypocritical given that human, draenei and other race mages are all around and have no such conditions, makes les sense with the highborne free of addiction and already humbled, and even less so when tall the magic and skills they have are needed to fight enemies. I am just not convinced people are giving serious enough consideration to what blizzard has shown and the impact it might have. However I agree looking closer would be interesting in how they get there. There are night elves who would be wary of the highborne regardless, even if Maiev was a one off case, there would be others uneasy, some wouldfully embrace, butso far the impression we get is that all are deeply wounded by the past and have learnt their lessons - this is one of the primary distinctions between highborne and nightborne. Few nightborne became nightfallen, ALL the shen'dralar faced withdrawal the hard way and freed themselves of addiction ragining clarity with contrition. This would make them more respectful of Darnassians and also make them more trustworthy.

    2. What makes you think they will dwindle? The story corrects that at the very start stating and showing many new night elves joining. Also commenting that there were night elven highborne who upheld the ban, remaining with the kaldorei (instead of fleeing with Darth'remar) that returned to it. Furthermore, part of the agreement is that the Shen'dralar have complete training of their recruits who become highborne on choosing that path. This shows you their numbers growing, not dwindling. They pick talented night elves with the arcane.

    The arcane is not dead in the night elves, 10k years of being infused with the well of eternity without magical use on a race that is naturally gifted will alwaysyield talented arcane users. This si how the highborne were originally formed, Azshara picked talented night elves with the arcane, and it is their stock that have provided the most powerful sorcerors in Warcraft history - Illidan and Azshara and the night elven highborne are the most revered for this. It also helps that the shen'dralar were the world's most powerful arcane empire's most revered arcanists who continued their magical reserch for 10k years in a city they maintained for 9 of those 10 millennia, even after it's ruin they continue their arcane study and fascination.

    We know night elves are druids and priests, but we should never forget that they are naturally gifted with the arcane and have a love and affinity for it. Whiles culturally, Darnassian society is slowly opening up again and many may have a phobia or reticence, you musn't deny or exclude those who have a love and an aptitude or affinity either, especially when you are shown lots of students in Feralas, Azshara, Darnassus etc - and you see by WoD and BFA they are in operation helping alliance forces. That's not a dwindling population.

    Sooner rather than later, these new mages will outnumber the Shen'dralar
    That doesn't matter though does it, they have incredibly long lifespans, and they will train these new mages and impart and share their knowledge and build up the various branches of magical study, furthermore, remember they are picking the talent too, it's not like the Darnassians are less talented, you'd have the same, it's in the genes, and they are linked to the Well of Eternity - rcailly they are built to contain much of this.

    People so easily ignore the origins of the ngiht elves and the Well of Eternity and their make up, I'm not accusing you btw, its' a comment to those who keep forgetting that nthis is a part of the night elves and they are talented at it, they also forget that night elf society is not in the long vigil and arcane hate is not a thing. Arcane practice hate is unjustified, but when is hate rational, it's more like Arcane practice phobia (it is irrational based on what we now know), still no matter how many have arcane practice hate you still have others that don't and have love for it. There will be others who are talented at it, not suited for the priesthood or druidsm wtaht can't maximise their talent. This is a race that has an in guilt arcane love, and the excuse for no practice doesn't exist anymore. What keeps them grounded is an equal and stabilising love for nature, one the arcane lovers would know is essential in keeping them from losing it again. exploring this and fleshing it out is also interesting.

    They are environmentalist mages. Their preoccupation should be : "What exactly is arcane magic impact on nature? Can we use it to nurture life as the Well of Eternity did? How and at what risk? The leylines are the veins and arteries of our world. What impact does the manipulation of leylines have on nature? Is there a way to use magic to minimize that impact? Is there a way to minimize magic addictive properties? etc." That can be shown through quests and characters. Not new models
    that could be a large part of the ir focus, I agree, I can see them very interested in this. I can also see the nightborne quite interested too. The highborne experienced the cataclysm, both groups experience the well of eternity, however the highborne have greater access to druids and the Order of Elune that also has its own arcane secrets - not to mention now the corruption in the Cathedral is free, anything lost can be recovered or have ghosts tell you - which can be the open door to Nightborne priestesses of Elune. Still atm, the highborne would have the advantage. However the nightboren have the arcan'dor and the Valewalker leader is very soft on them too. They would be interested in this immensely too, and they are such respecters of power, they'd wanna know more of the nature that has the power to guide global evolution in the hands of masters, or create world trees or defeat the legion like happened in WC3.

    It is because of this being possible in both that I think the more realistic approach is the degree to which it is. For nightborne it's new, and a small part, Botanists were already a small section, and those interested in studying the arcan'dor and nature won't be large either. Even if they do get Valewlakers (their version of druids - mainly focusing on balance), Elune order also if any comes to be would be small part of their society. Whiles the inverse is true for the highborne. The highborne don't need to have druids or priests amongst them, those automatically join the druid or Elune orders, they remain the arcane order, becoming an order moreso than a caste. This is a shift. A much bigger druidic influence and priestly influence and access would be there. They'd also be a group fighting to show off the wonders and advantages of the arcane, without repeating echoes of Azsahara (cos that's how Azshara led the night elves away from everything else). Still the arcane is very beneficial, the moonwells are testimony to that, having been used for the last 10k years amongs the long vigil group, now with practice added, there will be mages who seek to do as you say, and explore that side.

    You make a good point, I'm not sure I can add any more here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    I feel like the Ren'dorei-Kaldorei alliance would serve as a perfect foil for the Sin'dorei-Shal'dorei alliance. Ren'dorei and Kaldorei are both ambitious races who defy all laws to get what they want, they value freedom above everything else and serve as a perfect foil for the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei, who have a much more lawful and dogmatic society.
    They do, people who only focus on blood elf lore take the view that night elves stagnate and dn't change. Yet the Darnassian group is the same one that had the balls to ban arcane magic practice and completely shift their culture, it's not easy, they weren't afraid to pick it up again once the threat had passed, doing a U-turn, adn they weren't afraid to turn to demon hunters they ahd villified previously, accepting the rational of the truth. That's very gutsy, further more, teh Black Moon ritual is also another step they took very ballsy, and dangerous.

    People forget this is the race that cracked arcane magic in the first place and developed the most advnaced culture, and when they switched to nature, did the same in nature terms. The ren'dorei also show a tenacity too to delve into the void and study it and maintain their sanity.

    While no one argues that blood elves are driven and prepared to go all teh way, cricitise the night elves all you want, but they too, are prepared to make sweeping changes.

    It is interesting how it is players that have problems with accepting night elves accepting the arcane but have no problems with night elves in the Dark Moon ritual which is far more dangerous. Yet blizzard hasn't shown night elves problematic with the arcane after the events of Wolfheart save for Maiev the soruce of the problem of arcane magic hate as well as highborne hate. All other times after cataclysm, you don't see badmouthing arcane users, or prejudice or inequality or hate.. just like you don't see anything in the black moon.

    The reason is because those fans don't understand night elves (not many do, that's why they're enigmatic, and it takes essays for me to explain simple things a little research and thinking would prove), they think of them as idiots who will stupidly stick to outdated and invalid beliefs when they have been presented with evidence to the contrary. They don't realise that if blizzard was to write the night elves as they expect, it would make them a very stupid race at total conflict with their high intelligence label.

    Elves in Warcraft are tenacious, gutsy an have balls, they achieve the most incredible feats in the lore - and are formidable when they get going, all of them. The sheer arrogant scorn of the horde fans that think kal/quel' dorei or quel/ren'dorei are useless rubbish amuses me when both sin'dorei and shal'dorei are derived from those two groups. I mean ti's literally the same elves under different degrees of magical influence. one is night elves with arcane corruption, one are high elves with fel corruption. surely they can see that either group is capable of what the other is, but the the choices the Kaldorei and Ren'dorei are making speaks volumes for them.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-11 at 10:48 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    They do, people who only focus on blood elf lore take the view that night elves stagnate and dn't change. Yet the Darnassian group is the same one that had the balls to ban arcane magic practice and completely shift their culture, it's not easy, they weren't afraid to pick it up again once the threat had passed, doing a U-turn, adn they weren't afraid to turn to demon hunters they ahd villified previously, accepting the rational of the truth. That's very gutsy, further more, teh Black Moon ritual is also another step they took very ballsy, and dangerous.

    People forget this is the race that cracked arcane magic in the first place and developed the most advnaced culture, and when they switched to nature, did the same in nature terms. The ren'dorei also show a tenacity too to delve into the void and study it and maintain their sanity.

    While no one argues that blood elves are driven and prepared to go all teh way, cricitise the night elves all you want, but they too, are prepared to make sweeping changes.

    It is interesting how it is players that have problems with accepting night elves accepting the arcane but have no problems with night elves in the Dark Moon ritual which is far more dangerous. Yet blizzard hasn't shown night elves problematic with the arcane after the events of Wolfheart save for Maiev the soruce of the problem of arcane magic hate as well as highborne hate. All other times after cataclysm, you don't see badmouthing arcane users, or prejudice or inequality or hate.. just like you don't see anything in the black moon.

    The reason is because they do't understand night elves, they think of them as idiots who will stupidly stick to outdated and invalid beliefs when they have been presented with evidence to the contrary. They don't realise that if blizzard was to write the night elves as they expect, it would make them a very stupid race at total conflict with their high intelligence label.
    I agree with you completely. I am not a NE fan, but their entire story since their introduction in WC3 was about learning to embrace future instead of remaining chained by the past. They lost their immortality, and that was the catalyst for them to evolve. If I am not mistaken, Malfurion even tells Tyrande in WC3 something along the lines of "If our old age has made us unable to accept the help of others, then our lives are not worth living". As opposed to the Shal'dorei, who really did stagnate, and the fact that their city remains pristine as it did 10.000 years ago is proof of that.

    And that's really a criticism I don't get. It's so blatantly obvious that the night elves are one of the races that have evolved the most in Warcraft.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    I agree with you completely. I am not a NE fan, but their entire story since their introduction in WC3 was about learning to embrace future instead of remaining chained by the past. They lost their immortality, and that was the catalyst for them to evolve. If I am not mistaken, Malfurion even tells Tyrande in WC3 something along the lines of "If our old age has made us unable to accept the help of others, then our lives are not worth living". As opposed to the Shal'dorei, who really did stagnate, and the fact that their city remains pristine as it did 10.000 years ago is proof of that.

    And that's really a criticism I don't get. It's so blatantly obvious that the night elves are one of the races that have evolved the most in Warcraft.
    Indeed. Tyrande is gutsy, I may not like some of the ways they portray, but gosh. Then Malfurion constantly surprises, he is the biggest supporter of the highborne rejoining in cata, Tyrande basically give the slliance the go ahead to trust the demon hunters. She also is the one that accepts the palace highborne Drath'rmear group who ahd been opening portals for demons to pour through. and she still goes ahead and ehlps rescue her city despite her anger and bitter disappointement that they'd open up to the demons and get even more hooked on an arcane source

  20. #40
    It'd be sweet if Alliance got Highborne because of their hatred for Nightborne with slightly different features that make them look more pretentious and an overall update to both races appearances.

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