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  1. #1

    Potential differences between Nightborne & Highborne Darnassian cultures going

    I'll try to keep it brief as you're accustomed to long posts from me. The aim is to gain a deeper idea of what these two would look like in the current wow timeline, what their differences would be and how they would look like and be heading if we could have a closer look.

    Why? Because it interests me, I want to write about it and want a template to roleplay them well.

    Presently:


    • Nightborne = pre-sundering Kaldorei culture invasion era template where Elisande has swapped with Azshara, and there is no Order of Elune counter buffering influence, greatly diminished nature influence traditions from the earlier pre-arcane era with vestiges in the nightborne botanists and zoo handlers.
    • Highborne Darnassians: = humbled arcane kaldorei culture in the vein of the pre-sundering era, but pre-invasion era, similar to Farondis highborne in Azsuna - i.e. the hubris prevalent at the end of Azshara's reign gone, Elune and nature reverence evident and involved perhaps in the complex intertwining that existed in the pre-sundering era.


    Outlook:


    • Nightborne: Joining the horde should change a lot: Departure from pre-sundering Kaldorei arcane culture, normalisation with high elven culture of the blood elves: Downside is use lose the charm of seeing 'night elves on the horde' and having nightborne and blood elves feel like 2 different races.
    • Highborne Darnassians: Go further to the pre-sundering pre-invasion era, an arcane kaldorei urban culture with the order of Elune and druidic philosophy playing a noticeable role but in the long vigil format.

    Problem: Blizzard is probably not going to show both, they'd likely show one, and just hint at the other.

    Solution: As nightborne is the race and highborne a faction of race, I would use the nightborne as the template for the highborne and focus on showing them more as a kaldorei arcane culture - I feel this is better as it retains a unique identity from the blood elves they are allied with (otherewise they're just purple blood elves) it also keeps and better defines their identity based on the Kaldorei culture they eshew.


    Going Forward

    Nightborne:
    1. Write a return of the Order Elune in ngihtborne culture and use it to show pre-sundering intertwining of the Order with the elven society: Whereas Darnassian night elf culture is the Order operating alongside a druidic culture.

    2. Druidsm should be another thing that gives the nightborne a unique feel to the blood elves they are friends with, and I believe it should be presented in an adapted form. Druids amongst the Darnassians is very healing and feral forms based, the balance side has not been shown.

    3. I will take advantage of this omission and show that side visibly in the nightborne. The Arcan'dor allows this precedence more to develop comfortably while giving an the arcane influenced feel to their druidsm present in the Darnassians but not expanded in lore with overtones of the Darnassian long vigil version, but would feel diffennt as this grop has picked it up in a post vigil world. It would be feel more schorlarly too, and have examples of balance druids and mages collaborating.

    This should be the group where you show what a pre-sundering kaldorei culture looks like and essentially night elves would be like on the horde.


    Highborne:
    1. The visible development of this in the nightborne would not require blizzard to show much of the highborne development, but it would mirror the nightborne without need for explanation, just a race change and slightly different apperances and night elf leaning attitudes (so more benevolent, and altruistic like Farondis rather than Thalyssra).


    2. No need to show druidsm here, druids exist in the wider Darnassian culture which we all know what their feel is, only the influence of druid philsophies are apparent in the highborne's more balanced approach to using arcane. This allows their portrayal to be entirely arcane (as fits the highborne - as the nightborne is the better setting to define and show a culture.


    3. The only other difference is a way to culturally show how arcane culture works with a druidic based culture.

    This should be the group where you visibly explore what you would have done if you had placed the nightborne in the alliance with the night elves.





    Conclusion:

    Main difference can be summed up in 2 characters. Darnassian Highborne should reflect Prince Farondis, while Nightborne should reflect Thalyssra. Greater nuance should be visible in the nightborne as they are the race, while the highborne are a faction. However the highborne should be the example of how the nightborne would fair in Darnassian culture if they were allied to them.


    • Have I missed anything you can think of?
    • How do you view them now?
    • What are your thoughts and where do you think you will go
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-10 at 08:52 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I'll try to keep it brief as you're accustomed to long posts from me. The aim is to gain a deeper idea of what these two would look like in the current wow timeline, what their differences would be and how they would look like and be heading if we could have a closer look.

    Why? Because it interests me, I want to write about it and want a template to roleplay them well.

    Presently:

    [*]Nightborne = pre-sundering Kaldorei culture invasion era template where Elisande has swapped with Azshara, and there is no Order of Elune counter buffering influence, greatly diminished nature influence traditions from the earlier pre-arcane era with vestiges in the nightborne botanists and zoo handlers.
    So far so good.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    [*]Highborne Darnassians: = humbled arcane kaldorei culture in the vein of the pre-sundering era, but pre-invasion era, similar to Farondis highborne in Azsuna - i.e. the hubris prevalent at the end of Azshara's reign gone, Elune and nature reverence evident and involved perhaps in the complex intertwining that existed in the pre-sundering era.[/LIST]
    I disagree with your assessment of "pre-invasion" Highborne culture. Queen Azshara had already been ruling for centuries by the time of the legion invasion and the arcane dependency of the Highborne elites was already well established. It wasn't a sudden "Legion's here, lets turn evil lol" but a gradual process which saw them distance themselves from the rest of kaldorei society. The only major difference I agree the invasion brought was the removal of the Order of Elune which was clearly still part of Highborne society, albeit decreasingly so, until the Legion's arrival. This can be seen perfectly with the Court of Farodis- they display the same arrogance that brought about their downfall, continuing to respect Ashzara and blame Prince Farodis for their deaths until she is revealed as the mistress of the Naga. And while they do display some reverence for Elune, there is no relation between the Court and nature- we don't see a single ghostly druid among them nor do they display any interest or affinity with the druids of nearby Val'sharah. This more than anything shows that even "moderate" Highborne had become entirely alienated from the nature worship prevalent in other parts of kaldorei society, with only reverence of Elune remaining.

    Furthermore Darnassus doesn't even resemble pre-Azshara Highborne society: By the time of Azshara the Highborne were already established as the elites of kaledorei society, while in Darnassus they are in fact at the bottom of society, in a position almost analogous to how they viewed druids before the sundering. Also, as we see from descriptions of Azshara's coronation, the Highborne were already a luxurious and opulent class even before their corruption, while modern kaledorei society remains based around the austerity and nature-focused values of the Long Vigil.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    [SIZE=4]
    Outlook:

    [*]Nightborne: Joining the horde should change a lot: Departure from pre-sundering Kaldorei arcane culture, normalisation with high elven culture of the blood elves: Downside is use lose the charm of seeing 'night elves on the horde' and having nightborne and blood elves feel like 2 different races.
    This is utter nonsense. The Nightborne explicitly joined the Horde because they wanted to preserve their traditions not change them. The Blood Elves, unlike the Night Elves, respect the arcane culture of the Nightborne and have showed no desire to change them. In any case considering how geographically separated the two populations are there is little chance of much mixing- I imagine at most they'll exchange scholars.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Highborne Darnassians: Go further to the pre-sundering pre-invasion era, an arcane kaldorei urban culture with the order of Elune and druidic philosophy playing a noticeable role but in the long vigil format.
    I'm sure the Shen'dralar would love to return to the pre-sundering situation of ruling over the rest of the Night Elves in opulence and luxury, but I can't see Malfurion or Tyrande being ok with that. On the whole there seems little desire in Darnassus for the restoration of an arcane kaldorei urban culture- from what we've seen new Night Elf mages might have learned the Shen'dralar's magic but they remain part of mainstream long-vigil Night Elf culture rather than adopting old Highborne values.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Problem: Blizzard is probably not going to show both, they'd likely show one, and just hint at the other.

    Solution: As nightborne is the race and highborne a faction of race, I would use the nightborne as the template for the highborne and focus on showing them more as a kaldorei arcane culture - I feel this is better as it retains a unique identity from the blood elves they are allied with (otherwise they're just purple blood elves) it also keeps and better defines their identity based on the Kaldorei culture they eshew.
    I disagree. While the Shen'dralar and the Nighborne started from a similar place, they chose radically different paths.

    The Shen'dralar decided to repent of their past deeds and rejoin Night Elf society to regain their "lost purity". They represent a Highborne path that involves submission to the values of the Long Vigil and an attempt to reconcile arcane magic with the Druidic values of the modern Night Elves through repentance and reconciliation.

    The Nightborne represent the opposite- Highborne that believe they can continue to stick to their traditions of an arcane based society led by magisters, not druids or priests. This can be seen explicitly in Thalysra's rejection of Tyrande and choice to go with the Horde, and implicitly in the fact that none of the characters we met in the rebellion seemed to view the luxurious and arcane-based nature of their society as a problem.

    Trying to make them the same with do a big injustice to both of their stories and involve needless homogenisation in an already over-homogenised game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    [SIZE=4]Going Forward

    Nightborne:
    1. Write a return of the Order Elune in ngihtborne culture and use it to show pre-sundering intertwining of the Order with the elven society: Whereas Darnassian night elf culture is the Order operating alongside a druidic culture.
    This I could potentially see, given the comments Oculeth and others make about the ruined temple of Elune outside Suramar- they clearly still see some connection there. Still I'm not sure how that's going to work after the destruction of Teldrassil and the Night Warrior saga, or how Elune will react to the Horde if we do indeed see her in Shadowlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    2. Druidsm should be another thing that gives the nightborne a unique feel to the blood elves they are friends with, and I believe it should be presented in an adapted form. Druids amongst the Darnassians is very healing and feral forms based, the balance side has not been shown.

    3. I will take advantage of this omission and show that side visibly in the nightborne. The Arcan'dor allows this precedence more to develop comfortably while giving an the arcane influenced feel to their druidsm present in the Darnassians but not expanded in lore with overtones of the Darnassian long vigil version, but would feel diffennt as this grop has picked it up in a post vigil world. It would be feel more schorlarly too, and have examples of balance druids and mages collaborating.


    The Nightborne already have a distinct theme to the Blood Elves so there is no need for any of this; they represent the original Highborne culture without all the Light and Sun based additions the Blood Elves have. Plus, as I've already said, the Nightborne have already rejected this path by choosing to maintain their traditions and join the Horde. This shouldn't be surprising- unlike the Shen'dralar they have a thriving Highborne society in Suramar so they have no need to abandon the values that have sustained them for so long, especially now they've removed the worst corruption like Elisande and her ilk.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    This should be the group where you show what a pre-sundering kaldorei culture looks like and essentially night elves would be like on the horde. [/B]
    No. If people want to roll Night Elves they should play alliance. It would add insult to injury for Blizzard to first all but destroy the Night Elves in BfA only to hand over their main themes to the Horde. The two races should remain distinct as they do now, with the Nightborne having a distinct visual theme but cleaving ideologically to the Blood Elves and the Horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Highborne:
    1. The visible development of this in the nightborne would not require blizzard to show much of the highborne development, but it would mirror the nightborne without need for explanation, just a race change and slightly different apperances and night elf leaning attitudes (so more benevolent, and altruistic like Farondis rather than Thalyssra).


    2. No need to show druidsm here, druids exist in the wider Darnassian culture which we all know what their feel is, only the influence of druid philsophies are apparent in the highborne's more balanced approach to using arcane. This allows their portrayal to be entirely arcane (as fits the highborne - as the nightborne is the better setting to define and show a culture.


    3. The only other difference is a way to culturally show how arcane culture works with a druidic based culture.

    This should be the group where you visibly explore what you would have done if you had placed the nightborne in the alliance with the night elves.
    Actually I think the Shen'dralar are far more interesting that you give them credit. They are the only group of Highborne that willingly chose to integrate themselves into post-sundering Night Elf society (even the ancestors of the High Elves eventually rebelled). Exploring the potential reconciliation of limited arcane magic use with the nature-based values of the Long Vigil is far better than just making them carbon copies of the Nightborne. And again I'm against any attempt to have identical races on both sides of the faction divide.
    Last edited by Tharivor; 2020-01-10 at 11:40 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    • Highborne Darnassians: = humbled arcane kaldorei culture in the vein of the pre-sundering era, but pre-invasion era, similar to Farondis highborne in Azsuna - i.e. the hubris prevalent at the end of Azshara's reign gone, Elune and nature reverence evident and involved perhaps in the complex intertwining that existed in the pre-sundering era.
    @Tharivor already covered this quite well, so I'll only add what they missed. And that is how the only Highborne to have joined Darnassus are goddamn Shen'dralar. In what conceivable universe is the group of Elves that went as far as sacrificing each other to Immol'thar just so they could maintain their immortality "humbled" and what do they have to do with reverence of Elune and nature? How are they in the vein of pre-sundering anything?


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    • Nightborne: Joining the horde should change a lot: Departure from pre-sundering Kaldorei arcane culture, normalisation with high elven culture of the blood elves: Downside is use lose the charm of seeing 'night elves on the horde' and having nightborne and blood elves feel like 2 different races.
    Nightborne still aren't Night Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    • Highborne Darnassians: Go further to the pre-sundering pre-invasion era, an arcane kaldorei urban culture with the order of Elune and druidic philosophy playing a noticeable role but in the long vigil format.
    So which one is it? Pre-sundering culture or long vigil?


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Solution: As nightborne is the race and highborne a faction of race, I would use the nightborne as the template for the highborne and focus on showing them more as a kaldorei arcane culture - I feel this is better as it retains a unique identity from the blood elves they are allied with (otherewise they're just purple blood elves) it also keeps and better defines their identity based on the Kaldorei culture they eshew.
    Nightborne aren't Kaldorei anymore and haven't been for thousands of years.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Nightborne:
    1. Write a return of the Order Elune in ngihtborne culture and use it to show pre-sundering intertwining of the Order with the elven society: Whereas Darnassian night elf culture is the Order operating alongside a druidic culture.
    So homogenizing Nightborne with Blood Elves (which they are by default, they are so similar they even share key historic turns of events that shaped each race) is bad, but homogenizing them with Night Elves despite this requiring a much bigger change is OK?


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    2. Druidsm should be another thing that gives the nightborne a unique feel to the blood elves they are friends with, and I believe it should be presented in an adapted form. Druids amongst the Darnassians is very healing and feral forms based, the balance side has not been shown.
    Farodin still isn't a Druid and he still has done nothing to teach any Nightborne his non-Druidic arts.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharivor View Post

    This is utter nonsense. The Nightborne explicitly joined the Horde because they wanted to preserve their traditions not change them. The Blood Elves, unlike the Night Elves, respect the arcane culture of the Nightborne and have showed no desire to change them. In any case considering how geographically separated the two populations are there is little chance of much mixing- I imagine at most they'll exchange scholars.
    I have never really felt that, as I haven't seen indication of it, or forgotten. I have reason to believe the opposite is true: The nightborne Thalyssra was critical of the Alliance (implying the Kaldorei) in the acceptance dialogue where she says are people will no longer suffer such stagnation again - I interpret this to mean they want a departure from the Kaldorei pre-sundering culture they've been living and stagnating in.

    I'm sure the Shen'dralar would love to return to the pre-sundering situation of ruling over the rest of the Night Elves in opulence and luxury, but I can't see Malfurion or Tyrande being ok with that. On the whole there seems little desire in Darnassus for the restoration of an arcane kaldorei urban culture- from what we've seen new Night Elf mages might have learned the Shen'dralar's magic but they remain part of mainstream long-vigil Night Elf culture rather than adopting old Highborne values.
    I'm sure they will, the Well of Eternity, civilization an unbroken one. But you realise that isn't what I'm saying here.

  5. #5
    Oh, they do not want to suffer such stagnation like Night Elves did with the Long vigil. They want to go further down the arcane route. It is obvious.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Oh, they do not want to suffer such stagnation like Night Elves did with the Long vigil. They want to go further down the arcane route. It is obvious.
    Not ot me it isn't. The nightborne were very slow under the shield. They made advancements, but over a long period of time. Following Occuleth's remarks on the failure to update the telemancy systems in centuries and his indication that this was not uncommon. The quest texts also state they had preserved the culture pristinely over the millennia.. which makes sesnse, as they were in a timeless bubble, stagnating to the extent that so much of the world is able to do so much better with so much less - as they would have witnessed with the tales of victory of primitive races in the horde. Not to mention the high elves who build an extraorindary kingdom - and the eye opener is not the grandness of Quel'thalas, it is much smaller and not as advanced as the Kaldorei empire, it is that they did it with so much less and far many more challenges. Tiny well, handicap from the exile, Troll wars, world wars etc, and they achieved so much - it's far more impressive to them than the kaldorei in comparison who seem to be similar in the sense that, they took a divergent route after the sundering and pretty much did not advance from that state.

    At least that's how I view it. More on this later

  7. #7
    And I do not view it like that. And since both of us can't prove anything, what are we doing?

    And the Blood Elves do not want Nature Magic, they also want to go down the Arcane route further. They will go well together.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I have never really felt that, as I haven't seen indication of it, or forgotten. I have reason to believe the opposite is true: The nightborne Thalyssra was critical of the Alliance (implying the Kaldorei) in the acceptance dialogue where she says are people will no longer suffer such stagnation again - I interpret this to mean they want a departure from the Kaldorei pre-sundering culture they've been living and stagnating in.
    From the Nightborne recruitment questline:
    "First Arcanist Thalyssra: On the contrary. This conflict has demonstrated your dedication to your people. I can see that the Horde has allowed you to uphold your traditions--something that is very important to us."

    The part about stagnation is explicitly a reference to Suramar's physical isolation and the fear that the joining the Alliance Night Elves, with their history of isolationism, would just be cutting themselves off from the world all over again. Its not that they want to discard their traditions, but rather they want to maintain them and still interact with the wider world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I'm sure they will, the Well of Eternity, civilization an unbroken one. But you realise that isn't what I'm saying here.
    My point is that there is a big dissonance between Night Elf society as it stands and returning to the pre-sundering era. The former revolves around the Long Vigil values of austerity and nature worship led by druids and priests; the latter a hierarchical urban society with wealthy and decadent arcanist Highborne at the top. Darnassian Highborne can't "return to pre-sundering society" because by accepting the values of the Long Vigil they are rejecting the values that characterised the pre-sundering Highborne.
    Last edited by Tharivor; 2020-01-10 at 04:26 PM.

  9. #9
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    did you created another thread to masquerade of how ou just wish that nightborne should be druid?dude

    those 2 races should stay different, and they should make the differentiation even further, the main thing of the allied races swamping factions is they being different enough to not blur the factions neither undermine the other race fantasy

    you are asking to retroactively make a race look like they did ten thousand years ago, just for the sake to have nightborne druids and other shenanigans, they would do exactly the opposite of their premise, making they uniform, with the same atributes and fantasies

    this will, or at least should never happen, they grown, evolve and become different, night elves are now the druid race, the wood elves, the nature based society with elune, their mages are minor and it not make or should not make a fundamental part in their society, they should not devolve to the past

    Same with nightborne, they are a high magic society, based on the arcane and even fel magic, they should not go back to what they look like in the past, they should change and evolve to the front with their new ties with the blood elves

  10. #10
    @ravenmoon

    Man, I admire your perseverance with keeping those elf threads rolling. Kudos.

    Glory to the Kaldorei!
    Death to the Horde!
    For Teldrassil!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    @ravenmoon

    Man, I admire your perseverance with keeping those elf threads rolling. Kudos.

    Glory to the Kaldorei!
    Death to the Horde!
    For Teldrassil!
    Lol. Go ask Mr Beast to plant another tree for you.

  12. #12
    I think with the shift of the Night Elves towards the Night Warrior and the vengeance aspect of Elune, Night elf Society should in future more focussed around their Warden Aspect, who were always one of the better parts of Night Elf Lore. I also feel like the Night Elf Heritage Armor should be a player Version of the Warden Armor.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    did you created another thread to masquerade of how ou just wish that nightborne should be druid?dude

    those 2 races should stay different, and they should make the differentiation even further, the main thing of the allied races swamping factions is they being different enough to not blur the factions neither undermine the other race fantasy

    you are asking to retroactively make a race look like they did ten thousand years ago, just for the sake to have nightborne druids and other shenanigans, they would do exactly the opposite of their premise, making they uniform, with the same atributes and fantasies

    this will, or at least should never happen, they grown, evolve and become different, night elves are now the druid race, the wood elves, the nature based society with elune, their mages are minor and it not make or should not make a fundamental part in their society, they should not devolve to the past

    Same with nightborne, they are a high magic society, based on the arcane and even fel magic, they should not go back to what they look like in the past, they should change and evolve to the front with their new ties with the blood elves
    Thanks for at least answering the question and giving your reason, I'll respond more thoroughly later. For now however :

    1. I am talking about exploring how we can differentiate highborne kaldorei and nightborne more sharply, not the Darnassian night elves and the nightborne - the thalassian equivalent would be a topic on how different should high elves and blood elves be, rather than blood elves and void elves.

    2. This is not a nightborne should be druids topic,, there is already one running that potentially explores that obviously.

    Why am I posting this? Hard to believe it maybe, but I want to constructively explore how the two would be different. They could be identical, but I love depth, so I go deeply into things even when they have little definition...in wow, perhaps even moreso where most things have little definition, it gives me room to I imagine and gives my mind work to draw on existing clues to paint a more elaborate tapestry than the one we are given. This is intentional in this type of game, they want you to make your own world within a framework - I tend to take this beyond my character because I am also drawn to their make believe races and cultures - more through past attachment than anything.


    @Mehrunes didnt care to focus on the topic with his thoughts, just to criticise what he felt was wrong with mine, which while acceptable in any discussion, I wish those who disagree with anything I write or prefer to attack me would at least give their opinions on the subject matter requested so it doesnt descend into a fight but can overall be constructive.


    @Tharivor thanks for your input, give me time to properly respond and share my thoughts, as it is a topic I have lots to say on and tried to keep the OP brief, I want to give a detailed response

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    @ravenmoon

    Man, I admire your perseverance with keeping those elf threads rolling. Kudos.

    Glory to the Kaldorei!
    Death to the Horde!
    For Teldrassil!
    Haha thanks man, night elves dint garner half as much attention as Thalassian elves despite still being popular enough for discussions.

    Furthermore the arcane parts of them exemplified in thenightborne andnightborneusually take backseat to their hero discussions or the druid and sentinel ones, so I tend to be one of the few sources of all things to do with night elven genre and the arcane... I obviously make topics about them because I like them, it's nice to see I am not the only one. Sometimes it feels like I am the love fighter, I step out with something and have a lack of wolves waiting to tear me down quickly enough.

    It does feel like warcraft even on this theatre

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhidana View Post
    I think with the shift of the Night Elves towards the Night Warrior and the vengeance aspect of Elune, Night elf Society should in future more focussed around their Warden Aspect, who were always one of the better parts of Night Elf Lore. I also feel like the Night Elf Heritage Armor should be a player Version of the Warden Armor.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on that, I like those parts if the night elves too, just as much as I like the arcane parts too for its silver purple starlit night theme it brings to the arcane magic culture inhwow, it also brings the high magic side of the night elves I also like and I have never felt I had to choose between one or the other.

    I have felt both are part of the race and it is good the race has both, it makes them feel diverse, and rich like a full race rather than 1 thing only culture or small country which too many "races" in fantasy worlds especially on video games end up feeling like, with humanity the only one that actually feels like it has enough depth.

    I loved warcraft races because they all hard several aspects to them, their elves are so rich and diverse, each elven group, the night group and the Thalassian group feel like rich diverse nations with many different parts to them where typically they are q thing only in fantasies.


    But back to the topic, while I appreciate your response, you didnt really comment on what the topic was about: looking at potential trial differences or good ways to distinguish the nighborne night elf group from the nightborne (not the Darnassian druids and priests v nightborne)

  14. #14
    You are severely unrelenting in your barrage of threads to reach for your Nightborne druids and whatnot, aren't you?

    First of all, why do Nightborne need to be similar to Highborne? They're more similar to Blood Elves at this point, magical mutations and so on (difference: Arcane, not Fel). Why should they be druids? They do not care for Nature and Balance, they care for the aesthetic. That doesn't make them druids, I've explained this further in the other thread of yours.

    Secondly, I must ask - how important is Elune for Nightborne anyway? Wowpedia lacks mention of their religion, and I do remember them forsaking Her in favour of Arcane. Why write Order of Elune into a culture that does not care about Elune any more, or at least, doesn't hold Her to the same regard? If you want the Order of Elune as in the ruling order, that can happen under a different name, but how many of the Nightborne are even there? Don't they have similar numbers to, let's say Void Elves? This is about the Horde-aligned Nightborne, of course. What is there even to govern, minuscule amount of Nightborne?

    Thirdly, I wouldn't want to use Nightborne as a template for any other race than Nightborne. Why should they be? There is a template for Highborne already. There is a template for an arcane culture in the Darnassian culture already. Darnassian implying Night Elven.

    Lastly, a more interesting idea would be to compare the Farondis-style Highborne and the Highborne of Eldre'thalas, really. I feel like there are more nuanced cultural differences there than in obvious Nightborne/Highborne comparisons.

    quick edit: What do you even mean with Nightborne night elven group? There isn't one. There's Nightborne that allied with the Horde and Nightborne who allied with Elisande. Neither are a night elven group...
    Last edited by Illusions; 2020-01-11 at 11:20 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    You are severely unrelenting in your barrage of threads to reach for your Nightborne druids and whatnot, aren't you?

    Not a thread about nightborne druids,. I know you might think so because druidsm is mentioned in there, but the subject heading and content I think sufficiently clarify the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    First of all, why do Nightborne need to be similar to Highborne? They're more similar to Blood Elves at this point, magical mutations and so on (difference: Arcane, not Fel). Why should they be druids? They do not care for Nature and Balance, they care for the aesthetic. That doesn't make them druids, I've explained this further in the other thread of yours
    .
    Your first question. This is what the topic is about discussing, and exploring. I am assuming you are aware that the Nightborne are the highborne kaldorei culture brought to the present in its pristine state - it is the Suramar from the war of the ancients story where Tyrande, the Stormrages, the Shadowsongs are all from in a time when the arcane was paramount but the night elf leadership had fallen to addiction, abuse and recklessness with it.

    It is not about why they should be druids, mentioning druidsm or the role it can play in distinguishing the two is valid as it relates to the topic, but if that's you're premise, for this point, then I will point you to the other topic. Please read the topic for what it is without prejudice. In other words, don't approach thinking it is a thread about nightborne druids, base it purely on what it is saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Secondly, I must ask - how important is Elune for Nightborne anyway? Wowpedia lacks mention of their religion, and I do remember them forsaking Her in favour of Arcane. Why write Order of Elune into a culture that does not care about Elune any more, or at least, doesn't hold Her to the same regard? If you want the Order of Elune as in the ruling order, that can happen under a different name, but how many of the Nightborne are even there? Don't they have similar numbers to, let's say Void Elves? This is about the Horde-aligned Nightborne, of course. What is there even to govern, minuscule amount of Nightborne?
    The simple answer is we don't know, but the topic does beg an exploration of the very question you ask. As we don't know, we ask should it be? How much of it? Would it be a good thing? Can it serve a purpose? Should it be relevant? In the topic I bring up Elunism and the effect it could have in both nightborne and highborne groups and how its influence can help distinguish the two. The order of ELune in a night elf civilization hasn't been shown yet in game. (it had some depth in the War of the Ancients trilogy), but the Order of Elune amongst the Long vigil night elves the Darnassians from from is more a sentinel based group then a temple based priest order - because we haven't been shown the latter. This provides an opportunity for exploration. In the nightborne who are the example of pre-sundering kaldorei culture during the invasion era, the Order was heavily intertwined with the arcane culture, the more magical priest side of the order we only catch glimpses of when night elf priests use arcane spells like Starfall and others was far more prevalent and the major side of the priest.).

    So, we can have an example of this to see what that is like, and its presence also gives a different feel and look to the nightborne making them more distinct than the blood elves. I wouldn't know why anyone would want the nightborne to be blood elf copies, when they are a night elf based group with a particular side of the Kaldorei we haven't seen before - we already have blood elves, having a carbon copy with a different skin serves no purpose and is of no interest to a person like me who loves depths and appreciates differences.

    We contrast this on what it must be like amongst the highborne, and a potential difference that distinguishes them arises (I've written all this in the OP) the current highborne have no city civilization atm, and the priesthood there is still very martial (based on what we are shown - they could be magical, and we know that they are magically based from the books, but we haven't seen that shown in-game - we don't assume it's not there because of that, but we can use the more martial aspect as the main thrust in this exercise).

    In other words, concering the Order of elune, Highborne = magical group with a martial priesthood involved in a rural setting, Nightborne = magical group with a magical priesthood involved in an urban setting. (and don't you dare skim this reply only quoting this part without taking in the context it is given in, I obviously mean Highborn should/can be/become, nightborne should/can become - this is what the context should tell you.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Thirdly, I wouldn't want to use Nightborne as a template for any other race than Nightborne. Why should they be? There is a template for Highborne already. There is a template for an arcane culture in the Darnassian culture already.
    Nightborne are nightborne, and it is bringing out what this means, and clarifying it. Please tell me which of my assertions about the nightborne are wrong. . why do I get the feeling that what you are saying here is entirely because you are making assumptions on what I want with nightborne rather than what actually is. I can't ehlep but feel that when you say "I wouldn't want to use nightborne as a template for any other race" - I feel like, ,this is what he thinks I am doing, he's got it wrong. if mentioning the night elf root and base of the nightborne is what leads you to this conclusion, or reading Mehrunes completely skewed or rather twisted interpreations of me has led you here, or perhaps memories from my previous posts, please, take this as a fresh canvas, make no asumptions, assume I am a completely new person, and mtreat the topic as such, without re-supposition or agenda, as I replied in the post above, this is really about exactly what it says.

    Nightborne and Highborne are very similar, they are the most similar group. They are kinda like high elves and blood elves. [Yes, nightborne are more similar to highborne night elves than they are to blood elves both culturally (as anyone who's read night elf lore in WotA or Chronicles and played Suramar would see) and also physically (you only need to look at the models and appearance, and if you follow the story of the change both groups underwent, nightborne are closer to the original kaldorei than the high/blood elves are] Failure to see that is surprising in any warcraft lore fan who knows elven lore. Now differences are around, lets find them (that's what I am exploring here), and think of more potential ways they can be distinguished. Whiles making them carbon copies of blood elves is one, albeit a bland one, at least show how they will drift more towards that and become ugly looking purple blood elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Darnassian
    implying Night Elven.

    Of course Darnassian implies night elven but not ALL night elves, atm it is the Alliance aligned Kaldorei with a heavy druidic and Elune aspect, it also has highborne aspect incorporated now in it. Darnassian is actually different from long vigil Kaldorei because it is a new culture in a post-vigil era for the Kaldorei as particularly part of the Alliance. Darnassus was destroyed at the start of the Battle of Azeroth. This is expected to further define the night elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Lastly, a more interesting idea would be to compare the Farondis-style Highborne and the Highborne of Eldre'thalas, really. I feel like there are more nuanced cultural differences there than in obvious Nightborne/Highborne comparisons.
    Okay, that has its place, at another time you can make that post. It would be interesting especially when the Farondis highborne became a playable group or are actively shown to have involvement in world affairs outside the Azsuna and Legion expansion setting, it is less appealing as a topic currently (although I'm happy to expand there), but it is very much worthy of mention here. Nightborne and Highborne are active and playable portions, and are very much involved in world affairs through their factions and allies. The nightborne are the most visible example of that arcane kaldorei culture that both the Shen'dralar and Farondis highborne are about but have little to show of its original context. Suramar 7.0 shows this quite well. Substitute the Nightwell for the Well of Eternity, Suramar is Zin'Azsharai, and Elisande is Azshara. Night elf city, night elf cutlture in 7.0 this is what they show.. now at the end of the nighthold, a significant change has occurred. the highborne kaldorei era ends, just like the long vigil era for the night elves ends with WC3. They have enough changes, like the Arcan'dor, the blood elves and horde, draining of the nightwell to become something different. Highborne now are Shen'dralar led, but not shen'dralar exclusive, they are the remaining highborne including those who were part of the long vigil culture that switched to druidsm or just upheld the Long vigil ban, returning after it was lifted (this was mentioned in both Wolfheart and Cataclysm and the twins in Azsuna are examples, other examples are the lorekeeper highborne in Azshara zone the horde hero fights). The Highborne incorporate all of this, if the Farondis became playable is as simply restored night elves or an allied race on the alliance, it is likely they would be merged with this group or the group merged with them.

    We can explore that. They don't have to throw off their past completely, it would rather be their past selves because they've been like this for nearly 15k years not just 10k years (or from however long Suramar was built to present), rather other things get introduced that can allow them to be a little different. Elune can play a role, or alternative, Elune can only be a part of the highborne and can serve as one of the distinguishing factors. Elune doesn't have to play a role in the nightborne, I just mention my preference, you would be very valid in saying, no you prefer the nightborne to take a different route, and this Elune Order play a apart in the highborne like it did in the pre-sundering era or in a different way. As we've never seen how the elune order played a role (it was only described), it would be something worth showing in one of the communities.

    But it is things like this, (not limited to them) that makes this topic interesting. So if you're gonna say they should be more like blood elves, are you saying anything that is kaldorei related shouldn't be a part of them? Do you view their arcane culture as not kaldorei ? because it is, so only the things present in the Darnassians (like Elune and druidsm) should be absent in the nightborne, and they should only retain the pure arcane kaldorei aspects? If you are saying this then what exactly is that, and how would you show it different from the blood elf one - because it is different, but how will you bring this out.. as much as nightborne are no longer Kaldorei, they are even less so Sin'dorei - you make that point, so if your solution is to just make them indistinguishable from the sin'dorei then that's rather lame and un-interesting.



    You had big new player night elves, and the big new ancient bad, their arch nemesis the Burning legion, you also had the Scourge undead with tis powerful new leader and the twists and turns of a story that at first is a mystery turned zombie movie turned fantasy turned supernatural as one thing excitingly leads to the other and you meet so many cool things, night elves were quite cool with their magical and immortal background (I read the manual first, and allowed the manual to frame my definition of the race which sometimes causes me to be at odds with other posters on night elves who tend to ignore written content on only base their assessment on in game visuals), then the creepy undead scourge, and while undead or zombies aren't new, he fit them into his universe in very good way, especially with a magical Undead king, the Lich King.. then the new evil, the demons, not being single agents but part of an invading force, with cool new models that were horribly terrifying, they felt evil and you had this night elf race who had fought em off once before facing a dire threat that had marked their lives for the last 10k years in a state they couldn't move on from because of this enemy their last 10k years existence was designed to prevent ever returning -- it was exciting and touching - how anyone expected the night elves to remain in wood elf mode after the Legion returns knowing the backstory is incredibly beyond me, I can only assume those people didn't know the backstory or never bothered to factor the race beyond - but as you can see from my posts - I am the sort of player that doesn't wait till blizzard expands the lore, I start imagining and planning the what next, what might it look like - it is exactly this that gives me passion to keep playing - it is looking ahead - for any who wonder why I seem a bit obsessed with it - this is the aspect of the franchise I am drawn too.)
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-01-11 at 12:44 PM.

  16. #16
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    1. I am talking about exploring how we can differentiate highborne kaldorei and nightborne more sharply, not the Darnassian night elves and the nightborne - the thalassian equivalent would be a topic on how different should high elves and blood elves be, rather than blood elves and void elves.
    differentiate? it looks like you are wanting to make then look alike, making then go back what they were once is a bad idea, its not museun they have to go to the future, not the past
    2. This is not a nightborne should be druids topic,, there is already one running that potentially explores that obviously.
    and its not what it looks like either
    Why am I posting this? Hard to believe it maybe, but I want to constructively explore how the two would be different. They could be identical, but I love depth, so I go deeply into things even when they have little definition...in wow, perhaps even moreso where most things have little definition, it gives me room to I imagine and gives my mind work to draw on existing clues to paint a more elaborate tapestry than the one we are given. This is intentional in this type of game, they want you to make your own world within a framework - I tend to take this beyond my character because I am also drawn to their make believe races and cultures - more through past attachment than anything
    .

    yeah but hit the brake with the fanfic cause that is different from the actual lore, that would be more suit to the roleplay area

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    differentiate? it looks like you are wanting to make then look alike, making then go back what they were once is a bad idea, its not museun they have to go to the future, not the past
    I am disappointed if this is the conclusion you reached from actually reading the original post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yeah but hit the brake with the fanfic cause that is different from the actual lore, that would be more suit to the roleplay area
    Then the lose the arrogant contempt too, and you would realise this topic requires you to be creative. You can call that creative input fanfic, but the topic is about build something that isn't currently lore based on what the currently lore. As any "what if/what should be" topic is. Coming on it and being pissed off that it does exactly that is a bit silly - no one knows exactly what highborne and nightborne culture are and could be become - so if someone asks for how they could potentially be further distinguished in time, don't be surprised if the potential future they predict isn't proven lore.. off course it isn't going to be - but fan fic as you put it, that is inappropriate to lump there sneeringly. I might use the ideas that get refined in here for the basis of a fanfic story, but that is not what this is.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire Odintdk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Lol. Go ask Mr Beast to plant another tree for you.
    I mean why not? Those demolishers could always use some more firewood to chew on.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhidana View Post
    I think with the shift of the Night Elves towards the Night Warrior and the vengeance aspect of Elune, Night elf Society should in future more focussed around their Warden Aspect, who were always one of the better parts of Night Elf Lore. I also feel like the Night Elf Heritage Armor should be a player Version of the Warden Armor.
    I disagree on the heritage armor part! But I have to say, its hard to pin down whats the most fitting heritage armor for nelfs. They have like 3-4 different armor styles that all are iconic for them.
    Personally I don't think we will focus specific on Wardens. From little that we know from shadowlands we will see more of a shift, something that started with 8.1 ... but this time they may resolve the question of immortality, maybe it gets shifted to reincarnation, at least thats what Ardenweald is about and whats the role of Elune in all of that. Sure revenge story could continue in Shadowlands, but knowing that all their dead people are stuck in the maw should shift that focus a bit.
    In a granter scheme (certainly not during 9.0), I think blizz will double down on the notion that Kalimdor is filled with ferocious races and unconstrained nature and wildlife. Bringing the Saberons and the Botani with the Mag'har to Kalimdor was a deliberate choice.

  20. #20
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I am disappointed if this is the conclusion you reached from actually reading the original post.
    is what you are implying, its not just me who had the impression , so its on how you make the thread

    Then the lose the arrogant contempt too, and you would realise this topic requires you to be creative. You can call that creative input fanfic, but the topic is about build something that isn't currently lore based on what the currently lore. As any "what if/what should be" topic is. Coming on it and being pissed off that it does exactly that is a bit silly - no one knows exactly what highborne and nightborne culture are and could be become - so if someone asks for how they could potentially be further distinguished in time, don't be surprised if the potential future they predict isn't proven lore.. off course it isn't going to be - but fan fic as you put it, that is inappropriate to lump there sneeringly. I might use the ideas that get refined in here for the basis of a fanfic story, but that is not what this is.
    be creative is one thing, the other is being delusional, lore will not bend 180° towards one side because you wish so, or think it make sense, when the already established lore is against the very thing

    thats why i said hit the break not stop entirely

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