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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    The work of a burger flipper doesn't provide value to the employer commensurate with giving up lavish benefits or a $30k plus salary. There is a reason the "unskilled" job market is called that - and your first tier service industry and retail staff aren't doing anything that require any specialized knowledge or involved training that requires a deeper financial investment.

    Gonna use the example of a small business, a restaurant. Generally speaking, to be profitable at all - like, to have more net money left over after everything running the business cost you, including everything you spend on licenses, taxes, utilities, rents, capital expenditures like the equipment, etc, all these essentially fixed costs - to even be turning a modest profit, like 4-10% - you need to be running your combined food/labor cost between 50-55% of revenue.

    Now I should point out, that 4-10%, if the restaurant does $500,000 in a year in revenue, that profit is $20k-$50k for the year. That's the profit. That's what that small business owner lives on, and pays their own taxes. On average, a new restaurant in its first year across all sectors has revenue closer to $100k. Do that math.

    Now perhaps the owner works and pays themselves a salary, but then they count on their own labor cost and it's really just robbing Peter to pay Paul, if you follow.

    In a single-unit operation, the owner probably works the restaurant as well, nominally for free, to reduce labor costs.

    So here's the thing - if you have this business owner, whose working their own restaurant at 40-50 hours a week and living just on the restaurant's profits, assuming this is a stable and quite successful restaurant, may be living on $40k-$50k a year. She is running F/L at 55%, trying to keep her food costs low to pay her staff enough to retain loyalty. A regulation comes in that requires her to give each of them an hourly wage equivalent to $30k a year and two weeks paid vacation - she'd be out of business, immediately. Best case, she can try to stay open by cutting everyone to part time and hope that they stay at all.

    Now, understand that of all your big national chains like a Domino's or a Chick-Fil-A or a Subway... these are just that small one-unit restaurant owner. One of their fixed costs is the franchising fee and royalties they pay to have the brand value of that chain attached to their business. But they get hit with those burdens because BIG CORPORATION... and she was only ever living on a lower-middle class income in the first place.
    I understand all that, but why would it not be possible in the U.S if it's possible in most European countries? It's not like we have a lack of small-sized businesses who don't go bankrupt because of employee benefits.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And ultimately have a shitty working system, with people being utterly exploited left and right, essentially little more than working drones.
    Then don't shop at those companies, and don't buy their products.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Then don't shop at those companies, and don't buy their products.
    That doesn't work when companies become too big to fail, though. Even if companies such as Google or Facebook started to whip their employees and have their lunch break removed (obviously an illegal exaggeration, but to bring the point across), they are still big enough to go bankrupt even if people boycott them.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    I understand all that, but why would it not be possible in the U.S if it's possible in most European countries? It's not like we have a lack of small-sized businesses who go bankrupt because of employee benefits.
    Well for one thing you also pay more at the point of sale. The cost has to go somewhere; it goes to the customer up to the point it's not hurting the indication to buy. And when everybody's in the same snare and applying the same solution, it's at least a little easier because the effect is universal. Or maybe the government is subsizing them, but that gets paid for how? Probably VAT or similar, which, again, flows directly into the point of sale cost.

    "Cost" isn't, strictly speaking, the same as matter and energy their their respective laws of conservation - but it's not entirely different either. Cost can't just be wished away. It's why even the thing people have declared or want to declare "free" aren't, because all that's changing is who is paying and in what context -- because it still has cost.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    That doesn't work when companies become too big to fail, though. Even if companies such as Google or Facebook started to whip their employees and have their lunch break removed, they are still big enough to go bankrupt even if people boycott them.
    It sounds like you also support a shitty working system, with people being utterly exploited left and right, essentially little more than working drones.

    Have you thought about not using Google and Facebook?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    That doesn't work when companies become too big to fail, though. Even if companies such as Google or Facebook started to whip their employees and have their lunch break removed (obviously an illegal exaggeration, but to bring the point across), they are still big enough to go bankrupt even if people boycott them.
    No company is too big to fail, it's just the state refuses to let them because companies of that size are effectively quasi-governmental operations. In the case of the American auto industry, for example, secured creditors got screwed over in the "managed bankruptcies" so that these companies could carry on as healthcare and retirement planning services for their employees that also happened to occasionally make vehicles. In the finance industry, they weren't allowed to fail mostly because they benefited from political patronage. In both cases, we should have let them take the hit and the economy rebuild.

  7. #27
    I'd look for answers in history. For some reason, a proper workers party never took root in the US as they did in Western Europe.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Then don't shop at those companies, and don't buy their products.
    Why? Big companies are all soulless disgusting things, but I have zero sympathy for people, who willingly subject themselves to them, aka crying for the free market. So if those people want to be exploited so bad and turn up their nose at any possibility to better their situation, they deserve a shitty stressful life.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Why? Big companies are all soulless disgusting things, but I have zero sympathy for people, who willingly subject themselves to them, aka crying for the free market. So if those people want to be exploited so bad and turn up their nose at any possibility to better their situation, they deserve a shitty stressful life.
    Then, why do you suddenly have sympathy for the employees?

    That's some pretty blatant hypocrisy right there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It sounds like you also support a shitty working system, with people being utterly exploited left and right, essentially little more than working drones.

    Have you thought about not using Google and Facebook?
    I don't support it, I'm just saying boycotts don't work on big companies. That's why we need governmental intervention to make sure that employees aren't exploited.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Then, why do you suddenly have sympathy for the employees?

    That's some pretty blatant hypocrisy right there.
    I have sympathy for employees, who don't want to be exploited and do something for it, for the rest I have none.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    I don't support it, I'm just saying boycotts don't work on big companies. That's why we need governmental intervention to make sure that employees aren't exploited.
    So, you are saying you are lazy, and want the government to do everything for you... got it.

    Or, you could stop spending money at those companies

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I have sympathy for employees, who don't want to be exploited and do something for it, for the rest I have none.
    Maybe, they should get different jobs.

    Maybe you should stop giving those companies your business.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post

    Maybe, they should get different jobs.
    Or force the big companies to pay them what they are owed. They are after all the main reason there is profit to begin with.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Or force the big companies to pay them what they are owed. They are after all the main reason there is profit to begin with.
    They are being paid what they are owed. People are worth exactly what they agree to be paid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Maybe, they should get different jobs.

    Maybe you should stop giving those companies your business.
    When all jobs are run the same, there is no choice in job. "Do I want to be exploited at a construction job or as a desk jock today?" Your anarcho-capitalist dystopia is a future I'm glad won't exist.
    Expansion leak claiming Legion is the last expansion
    Quote Originally Posted by golds
    NO it will be me laughing at how you doubted this....
    Quote Originally Posted by golds
    I was right

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    When all jobs are run the same, there is no choice in job. "Do I want to be exploited at a construction job or as a desk jock today?" Your anarcho-capitalist dystopia is a future I'm glad won't exist.
    How would all jobs be run the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, you are saying you are lazy, and want the government to do everything for you... got it.

    Or, you could stop spending money at those companies

    - - - Updated - - -



    Maybe, they should get different jobs.

    Maybe you should stop giving those companies your business.
    Not lazy, just realistic. How many boycotts in the past have shut down any mid-sized and up business? Not many.

    I'm just for protecting the weak against the strong. The weak need more protections over those with the advantage. Stuff like 4 weeks vacation, paid sick days and employment protections are good for the workforce. Happy employees, who love their job, bring more profit than sad and stressed out employees do. It's not cheap bringing in new employees either.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    They are being paid what they are owed. People are worth exactly what they agree to be paid.
    First lesson, you are never paid enough for your job and if your employer is unwilling to pay you more, while getting most of the profits, meaning he has cash to burn, there is a very easy solution, slack on the job, but not extremely obvious.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    Not lazy, just realistic. How many boycotts in the past have shut down any mid-sized and up business? Not many.

    I'm just for protecting the weak against the strong. The weak need more protections over those with the advantage. Stuff like 4 weeks vacation, paid sick days and employment protections are good for the workforce. Happy employees, who love their job, bring more profit than sad and stressed out employees do.
    Once again, complacency and laziness isn't someone else's fault.

    As a consumer and employee, you have power. Don't blame others, because you refuse to exercise that power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    First lesson, you are never paid enough for your job and if your employer is unwilling to pay you more, while getting most of the profits, meaning he has cash to burn, there is a very easy solution, slack on the job, but not extremely obvious.
    Of course you are paid enough. If you weren't, then get a different job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by johnrolla View Post
    Useless Europeans wish they made what U.S citizens make in a year. I make easy $117k a year without a sweat. You on the other hand have to pay 50% taxes or more because of your social security programs.

    The EU is more of a retirement home than actual job growth or economy growth place.
    Oh noes whatever will I do now, enjoying my retirement home before retirement I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Of course you are paid enough. If you weren't, then get a different job.
    Why? The goal of your employer is to exploit to the absolute maximum, any employee should see their employer in exactly the same light, trying to get as much as possible in return for their service.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-01-12 at 06:02 PM.

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