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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Basically anyone that wishes to preserve life, light and hope should have left Sylvanas' Horde about a year and a halve ago. Leave her only with the Forsaken and maybe the Orcs and Goblins.
    Problem is that neither side has really shown they can be trusted to handle maintaining peace.

    Anduin as a leader can't even keep his people in check when they go off to conduct peaceful non-combat missions, and regardless of whatever side people claim to not be on... various leadership still hold grudges they collect on from others.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Problem is that neither side has really shown they can be trusted to handle maintaining peace.

    Anduin as a leader can't even keep his people in check when they go off to conduct peaceful non-combat missions, and regardless of whatever side people claim to not be on... various leadership still hold grudges they collect on from others.
    To be fair though, during that Stormheim attack Anduin barely had become king, had no time to actually establish himself or to get over his grief of Varian's death. That he could not immediatedly control Genn (who was also grieving for his friend and blaming Sylvanas for his death) is understandable and besides, Genn was right. If he had ignored Sylvanas she might have started a war with the Titan Watchers, very bad move.

    By the time of the invasion of the Undercity it is clear that he has evolved and can now even reign in Genn with ONE word.

    But yes, Genn definately carries a grudge for Sylvanas destroying his city, blighting the lands, indirectly forcing the worgen curse upon the survivors and killing his son. I am pretty sure any sane person would, especially since Sylvanas never even attempted to show any remorse over it and instead gloats whenever she can.

    And let us not forget that Sylvanas only used that attack in Stormheim as a convenient example to pull the wool over Saurfang's eyes (not like she gave a damn about the Forsaken that died there). It was not the reason she went to war again, it was an excuse she could use to convince her allies that war was necessary, had that one not happened she'd probably picked up the Purge of Dalaran or something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    He DID get possessed for a short time by the Sha of Hatred
    Was it Hatred? Huh, okay, I must admit I only know that fight from Timewalks and who pays attention there

    However, the article about the Sha does actually state that the Pandaren actively trained to suppress these negative emotions, to limit the power of the Sha, so in general feelings of hate are uncommon up until the appearence of the Alliance and Horde. I guess it is our fault if we infected our new Panda friends with our hatred...

    I mean both sides almost literally tell them: "The other Pandas are now your enemies, no matter if they were your friends, brothers or parents. Kill them! For the Horde/Alliance."

    So if there is hatred in the Pandas it is likely that we put it there or that we at least helped it come to the surface. Hrmmm

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post

    Was it Hatred? Huh, okay, I must admit I only know that fight from Timewalks and who pays attention there

    However, the article about the Sha does actually state that the Pandaren actively trained to suppress these negative emotions, to limit the power of the Sha, so in general feelings of hate are uncommon up until the appearence of the Alliance and Horde. I guess it is our fault if we infected our new Panda friends with our hatred...

    I mean both sides almost literally tell them: "The other Pandas are now your enemies, no matter if they were your friends, brothers or parents. Kill them! For the Horde/Alliance."

    So if there is hatred in the Pandas it is likely that we put it there or that we at least helped it come to the surface. Hrmmm
    Or maybe, he is a smug hypocrite.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    To be fair though, during that Stormheim attack Anduin barely had become king, had no time to actually establish himself or to get over his grief of Varian's death. That he could not immediatedly control Genn (who was also grieving for his friend and blaming Sylvanas for his death) is understandable and besides, Genn was right. If he had ignored Sylvanas she might have started a war with the Titan Watchers, very bad move.
    Well.. we already have gone to war with titan watchers multiple times. Pissing off Odyn isn't certain because we might have just as easily won his favor still through the events of the trials and how he tossed aside other noteworthy pawns of his. Overall this is a very poor argument to validate preemptive self defense when it was already a convenient plothole that avoids the immediate war state that an assassination attempt should have resulted in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    By the time of the invasion of the Undercity it is clear that he has evolved and can now even reign in Genn with ONE word.
    Yes well he was finally getting his all out assault on Sylvanas' nation and done a fine job rendering the lands north of the capitol to mulch under boot and hoof and tread. Nevermind that one line of Talk no Jutsu BtS had
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    But yes, Genn definately carries a grudge for Sylvanas destroying his city, blighting the lands, indirectly forcing the worgen curse upon the survivors and killing his son. I am pretty sure any sane person would, especially since Sylvanas never even attempted to show any remorse over it and instead gloats whenever she can.
    Genn isn't the only factor showing poor diplomatic methods. Alleria sweeping up to Quel'thalas instigating events because she can't be arsed to learn a damn thing about recent history. Jaina with her ever shifting stances from permanent death grudge to depressed self reflection... I mean she nearly wipes out a city and calls for her own citizens to be purged and still lays blame on parties who weren't even directly responsible... Then Anduin's personal spy network has NEVER worked in a 'good' manner. It all meshes together for a setting that really seems like you either toe the alliance line and bend over backwards for Stormwind... or you die. See) Dazar'alor
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And let us not forget that Sylvanas only used that attack in Stormheim as a convenient example to pull the wool over Saurfang's eyes (not like she gave a damn about the Forsaken that died there). It was not the reason she went to war again, it was an excuse she could use to convince her allies that war was necessary, had that one not happened she'd probably picked up the Purge of Dalaran or something else.
    Any competent leadership would use an assassination attempt on leadership as justified grounds to condemn and pursue the nation responsible. They'd do that even if it wasn't their own leadership targeted. It was also not the only reason used, which is really more damning cause all the reasons she used would still be true regardless of whether she (sylvanas) cared about those involved or not.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Or maybe, he is a smug hypocrite.
    Maybe. but he does not appear that way to me. He is grim and gruff and can smear you all over the walls with his pinky but he just doesn't feel like a hater. He is distrustful for sure, but you would be too if two nations suddenly invaded your island and started a war in your towns and lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Well.. we already have gone to war with titan watchers multiple times. Pissing off Odyn isn't certain because we might have just as easily won his favor still through the events of the trials and how he tossed aside other noteworthy pawns of his. Overall this is a very poor argument to validate preemptive self defense when it was already a convenient plothole that avoids the immediate war state that an assassination attempt should have resulted in.
    Maybe so or maybe Genn has through the years been the only one seeing Sylvanas for what she is and has correctly deduced that whatever she was doing in Stormheim would not be helping anyone but herself.
    Sylvanas simply could not and cannot be trusted, she just has done too much shit in her unlife (especially to Genn) that anyone with a brain would turn their backs to her and let her do what she wants. It is outright baffling to me that the Horde let her stick around.

    Genn did the right thing and in hindsight even more then anyone ever assumed now where Sylvanas has been unmasked. I will never understand why people still defend her viewpoints and reasoning, knowing that it was all fake and her only objective was to kill as many people as possible. I suppose the Horde would like one war where they are the victim of an unjust attack, but this one is simply not it.

    Besides, even if we have beaten several Watchers, I still don't think it is a good idea to turn them against us during a Legin Invasion, just so Sylvanas can steal immortality for herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Genn isn't the only factor showing poor diplomatic methods. Alleria sweeping up to Quel'thalas instigating events because she can't be arsed to learn a damn thing about recent history. Jaina with her ever shifting stances from permanent death grudge to depressed self reflection... I mean she nearly wipes out a city and calls for her own citizens to be purged and still lays blame on parties who weren't even directly responsible... Then Anduin's personal spy network has NEVER worked in a 'good' manner. It all meshes together for a setting that really seems like you either toe the alliance line and bend over backwards for Stormwind... or you die. See) Dazar'alor
    Alleria wanted her people to return to her side, nothing really bad about that. Hardly the first time the Alliance has tried to bring the Belfs back, the first being unknowingly sabotaged by Jaina, though for a good reason.
    However before that, Jaina was probably a paragon of diplomatic skill. She had excellent contacts to the Horde, so much so, that Thrall officially sanctioned Theramore's place on Kalimdor for ever.
    It is hardly a failure of Jaina's diplomatic skill that an insane warmonger with daddy issues threw a bomb at her city and killed her friends. You'd have to be a saint to not go murderous after that. It is quite hillarious to blame Jaina for her shifting stances when every time one of those happened it was the direct result of the Horde commiting another crime against her personally or the Alliance in general. It took immense willpower to not wipe out Orgrimmar and see reason, only a blithering idiot would think that using Dalaran mages to transport another WMD to the said madman with daddy issues would not illicit a fitting response from Jaina.

    It really sounds like you are blaming the Alliance for reacting when the Horde starts shit. If anything the Alliance is too PASSIVE. Always giving the Horde the benefit of the doubt only to be brutally reminded that they do not deserve it.
    Jaina did, Anduin did and see what happened? Two cities wiped of the map. Genn is the only one not having this bullshit (and now so is Tyrande) and immediately they are turned into excuses for all the crimes the Horde commits.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    -more alliance apologism-
    Why am I not even surprised. Well whatever. You win, Horde is gone, there is only Anduin now.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Or maybe, he is a smug hypocrite.
    Taran Zhu was definitely a smug hypocrite. Most of pandaland's "philosophies" were shallow crap that fell apart if you applied two brain cells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Why am I not even surprised. Well whatever. You win, Horde is gone, there is only Anduin now.
    Explaining Alliance perspective is "apologism"? Then can I safely assume you'd apply that same label to posts explaining Horde perspective?

    Also, welcome to the feeling of your original faction identity being gone. For us, it started in Wrath with High King Dipshit I.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2020-01-16 at 10:17 AM.

  8. #28
    horde pandaren make so little sense at this point that they are basically non canon. the horde nearly killed their leader, raped pandaria, and the horde philosophy of fascism and unquestioning obedience to your tyrant leader is directly contrary to the huojin philosophy of taking direct action against evil and crises

    granted most horde races don't actually make sense anymore due to inept writing
    they hated sillag because he told them the truth

  9. #29
    Last post here, because we are derailing from the topic quite heavily at this point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Why am I not even surprised. Well whatever. You win, Horde is gone, there is only Anduin now.
    You have, probably on purpose, misinterpreted my post. The Alliance does not require "apologism", because it is not the guilty party in those instances.

    What I did was explaining causality to disprove the Horde apologism happening, i.e. that Stormheim is the cause for the Blood War. Every bit of Alliance agression has followed an attack from the Horde or Horde members at least.

    Genn did not attack Sylvanas because he is an evil warmonger that wants to wipe out the Horde, he attacked her because she is an evil monster that wants to wipe out all life on the planet and has demonstrated this goal by repeatedly murdering innocents with bio-chem weapons and blighting their lands. There is no need to make apologies for this, because he was right and the end of BFA has PROVEN this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
    Genn is not guilty of starting a war by attacking a war criminal, just because said war criminal hides behind the Horde. If you have lived your unlife as Sylvanas has you do not get to play the innocent victim of a brutal attack by an evil worgen.
    It is the Horde's own failure to let someone like that lead them and drag them into another war. If they want to die for an undead war criminal and be the evil faction that is their buisness, but stop trying to find reasons and justfications why the Alliance made you murder a tree full of civilians. It is just silly at this point.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    -snip-
    Yes, we get it, Anduin rules all. You and Golden can be happy now.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post

    Maybe so or maybe Genn has through the years been the only one seeing Sylvanas for what she is and has correctly deduced that whatever she was doing in Stormheim would not be helping anyone but herself.
    Considering it ended with him doing a petty potshot at the end? Prolly it was mostly him being petty for revenge not some wise insight about other issues
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Sylvanas simply could not and cannot be trusted, she just has done too much shit in her unlife (especially to Genn) that anyone with a brain would turn their backs to her and let her do what she wants. It is outright baffling to me that the Horde let her stick around.
    And this would be fine and dandy except for the part where 7th legion troops under strict orders were made to IGNORE their orders and pursue a different objective with no stated evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Genn did the right thing and in hindsight even more then anyone ever assumed now where Sylvanas has been unmasked. I will never understand why people still defend her viewpoints and reasoning, knowing that it was all fake and her only objective was to kill as many people as possible. I suppose the Horde would like one war where they are the victim of an unjust attack, but this one is simply not it.
    highlighted for emphasis... the attack genn made was unjustified when he made it. The pointless lives lost (on both sides) because of his grudge are still pointlessly lost because of his actions. Running around and learning more information doesn't change that and the fact that he didn't go for the kill in the end is even made worse cause THEN he had a real reason to do so.

    Like I normally will say... Preemptive Self Defense isn't self defense, it's just assault. I don't quite understand why you think a blind ambush while under a treaty in the face of a larger invasion is justified in any sense of the word. "they're doing... something...." isn't a plausible justification for attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Besides, even if we have beaten several Watchers, I still don't think it is a good idea to turn them against us during a Legin Invasion, just so Sylvanas can steal immortality for herself.
    The highlighted part is my thoughts in general. You seem to think it's perfectly fine to turn on and provoke hostilities between the factions. Honestly provoking the factions seems far more plausible... well I guess I'm biased because that is exactly what happened anyways.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Alleria wanted her people to return to her side, nothing really bad about that. Hardly the first time the Alliance has tried to bring the Belfs back, the first being unknowingly sabotaged by Jaina, though for a good reason.
    The problem is Alleria is selectively aware of information that should bring up a lot of red flags...
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post

    It is hardly a failure of Jaina's diplomatic skill that an insane warmonger with daddy issues threw a bomb at her city and killed her friends. You'd have to be a saint to not go murderous after that. It is quite hillarious to blame Jaina for her shifting stances when every time one of those happened it was the direct result of the Horde commiting another crime against her personally or the Alliance in general. It took immense willpower to not wipe out Orgrimmar and see reason, only a blithering idiot would think that using Dalaran mages to transport another WMD to the said madman with daddy issues would not illicit a fitting response from Jaina.
    clearly the daddy issue warmonger... not at all the premier diplomat allowing their city to be used to support a land and sea campaign against said warmonger's nation and allies.

    Yes it took immense willpower to not wipe out Orgrimmar... on behalf of Thrall and Kalecgos who managed to stave off Jaina and talk her down... don't act like she wasn't out for blood trying to KILL Thrall and everyone in Orgrimmar.

    And as for The Purge... Jaina abused her power as a member of the Council and ignored the rest of the council acting on her own to butcher up her own subjects and called out for another party to vent their anger as well. The hilarious part? The people targeted were largely not involved. Good Girl Jaina, calling for the murder of her subjects cause she was angry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    It really sounds like you are blaming the Alliance for reacting when the Horde starts shit. If anything the Alliance is too PASSIVE. Always giving the Horde the benefit of the doubt only to be brutally reminded that they do not deserve it.
    Jaina did, Anduin did and see what happened? Two cities wiped of the map. Genn is the only one not having this bullshit (and now so is Tyrande) and immediately they are turned into excuses for all the crimes the Horde commits.
    It really sounds like you're fine white washing every less than good alliance deed and accepting the blank check they have because some alliance character was wronged in the past.

    The reason Stormheim, Dazar'alor, Dalaran Purge, and some of the Before the Storm bullshit keeps coming up as foul for the alliance is because they were wrong and overbearing. The only excuse you can really muster is "well Sylvanas/Garrosh turned out way worse later so they're justified" or "The Alliance was acting in retaliation for [insert]" ... those are very poor justifications and in some cases not even involving the same parties. Flip this logic around and the Bilgewater Cartel is entirely justified in nuking Stormwind, I mean how else do we wash out that past attempt get wiped out?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisisvacant View Post
    I don't think the factions which joined the Horde and Alliance are particularly representative of pandaren on the Wandering Isle even though that is, ostensibly, where they're from.
    There were plenty of mainland Panderans who joined with the Horde and Alliance. As Horde, you free Panderan from the Alliance and the join the Horde much in the way the Taunka in Northrend.

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