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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    no worries, archimonde is still there to take charge!
    Didn't we kill him in the Nether?

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    no worries, archimonde is still there to take charge!
    I thought the devs said he was dead?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Aggramar was weakened by both his original "death" at Sargeras' hands, then his long torture as he was psychologically broken down and made to serve the Legion as an enforcer. Basically put, what we fought was just a portion of the Aggramar that once was - effectively an avatar. The Legion and Sargeras were also bent toward the conquest of Azeroth, evidenced by the fact that Sargeras himself was almost entirely focused on Azeroth and the bulk of the Legion's forces were en route (as can be seen in Argus' skybox there are mass Legion dreadnoughts moving toward it). Basically, our strike on Antorus was done while the Legion was otherwise occupied, and following on the heels of the loss of Kil'jaeden (capitalizing on a hierarchical shakeup in their leadership).

    Antorus was what I like to think of as a hit-job, basically. A powerful breaching force sent to sneak through Antorus while it is otherwise busy with the invasion of Azeroth and liquidate high-value targets like the High Command, Portal Keeper Hasabel (Legion logistics), Kin'garoth (development), the Shivarra Coven, and finally Aggramar and Argus themselves. Basically removing what was left of the Legion's leadership and its most powerful weapons. This caused the invasion of Azeroth to break down, especially after Sargeras himself was imprisoned in the Seat of the Pantheon by the remaining Titans.

    I think it was believable, if somewhat far-fetched. I think we needed a bit more build-up and some exposition to more fully explain what we were doing on Argus.
    So you don't think the fact we were fighting world souls instead of the actual beings makes a significant difference? or you already factored that in?

  4. #24
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Didn't we kill him in the Nether?
    I thought that too.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Also @Bethanie but the Legion is only the legion because someone as cosmically powerful as Sargeras could unite them into a fighting force, no single demon or armies of demons could defeat the titan, without him, the demons descend back into myriads of chaotic beings all seeking their own odds. He was the one that systemically we around containing and imprisoning them, removing them from the Great Dark beyond so life could flourish in the cosmos before he changed his goal to start his mission.

    And this is not including the normal beings like Eredar and others (Dread Lords) whom Sargeras demonised after seducing/enticing them into his cuase.

    In other words, there is nothing like the Legion anymore..that's not tos ay there won't be demons to fight or a smaller organised force of demons by someone powerful enough to control or dominate large numbers of them.

    But the myriad united host with a burning crusade should effectively be gone, and I won't like to see it back. Demons ofc neeed to play a role (i.e. to be defeated and as scary monsters requiring brave heroes to fell, but not like the legion.
    Look at the example of Draenor. The legion didn't even fully set out on it and still damn near decimated the planet as it was. Cultists drawn to power divided the groups existing there and turned them on each other to consolidate into the force that invaded another world. This feat is still possible among the remnant hordes of demons still out there roaming. Likewise the vacuum left with the departure of the leadership could still be filled by another demon not unlike Mannoroth.

    Yeah the legion as it existed before is gone, but that doesn't make what's left harmless

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Then you shoulda played the warlock class campaign. There it was revealed he became entranced with Azeroth. Seemingly in love with the titan, so he wished to corrupt her into fel like him so they could slay the universe and the void lords together.
    I'm all for the classes having their own story and so on, but things like this, that's the primary motivation on what had been the primary villain for a decade, surely they could have had the Warlock NPC representative mention this in a cutscene, or even just gossip/flavour text when spoken to so we could find out about that. :/

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Properly deal with the legion threat? cause imo taking out Sargeras in a patch is a bit of a let down.
    Sargeras isn't taken out in any way, shape or form. The titans temporarily locked him up. The titans couldn't even handle properly locking up the old gods, who all leaked out of their prisons prior to us killing them (or freeing them).

    Sargeras will 110% escape, probably during late Shadowlands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    We literally took down their entire military command. They're mostly fucked.
    No one was taken down. Demons regenerate in the twisting nether. Everyone "beaten" in Antorus will be back eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    That would've actually been dumb...
    That's the joke.jpg
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Didn't we kill him in the Nether?
    Are we sure that's not from the Titans' perspective?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  9. #29
    Stood in the Fire EntertainmentNihilist's Avatar
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    Although many people (like they did with Argus, only more so) would complain "but muh high fantasy!", I always thought dealing with the Legion should be two expansions, one that was like 7.0 - 7.2, where we defend Azeroth from and invasion that leaves us devastated.

    Then after that, knowing that whether it be tomorrow or millennia from now, the Legion will return, the last of Azeroth takes off on an interdimensional ship (Exodar, Vindicaar, Tempest Keep, whatever) to take the fight to the Legion. But it wouldn't just be Argus, the heroes know they would be swatted like flies.

    Instead, the expansion would involve hopping between various worlds throughout the Great Dark and the Twisting Nether. Gathering new races as allies, making quick in-and-out strikes against key Legion strongholds, and collecting various powerful artifacts to use against the Legion.

    For variety sake, not every world would be dealing with the Legion threat, some we may be visiting simply to get the natives on our side or to get some super-weapon artifact. And because this would be a vast array of alien worlds, you wouldn't have to deal with an entire expansion of fel-green and black rocks.

    Then, for the final patch of the expansion, you would have Argus. But this time being invaded by a combined anti-legion army of Azeroth, Draenor, Ethereals, and a good 5-10 other worlds we've made friends with over the expansion. But from there you can have the conclusion of Argus play out more or less the same, though after 2 expansions of the Legion, it would really end with Sargeras as the final raid boss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Didn't we kill him in the Nether?

    No, in the mythic-mode phase you fight him in the Nether, but he still dies on Draenor for the cinematic. So even if mythic is canon, he died on Draenor.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I think the way blizzard handled defeating Sargeras was acceptable enough, how else are you going to defeat someone like that? It felt believable enough given the whole journey of the expansion, the titan artifacts etc, an impossible chance, made possible in an acceptable way.

    The way they used the titans etc, what could have used more explanation however was us defeating Argus form. Were we enhanced by the titans and by how we were transported to the seat of the Pantheon? Also a bit dodgy was Aggramar's defeat.. was he weakened by the bosses we defeated earlier? We certainly weren't fighting his full form, yet it was him! so what were we fighting? His soul I guess, and we have no idea what that means in terms of power or defeatability, because it is so vague how can we say it was impossible for us to defeat them?

    How we powered up:

    1. Artifact weapons - we gained immense power from them
    2. Netherlight Crucible - a fusion of a light and void godling to enhance
    3. The Army of the Light
    4. The Pillars of Creation
    5. The Nightwell
    6. The vindicaar seriously empowered.
    7. Illidan
    8. Eonar
    9. Legendaries

    Did we get any titanic or kaldorei power from the Tomb of Sargeras/Cathedral of Eternal Night.

    Most of these weren't used inside Antorus, they got us to there, but we had the artefact weapons, legendaries and Eonar after her encounter to help the rest of the fight.

    The thing is most of the bosses we defeated weren't necessarily aiding or boosting the power of the bosses, so it's not like Antorus was weakened the further we progressed and the more we fought.




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    Ig uess we fought the titans' souls, and not them actually.. This is one of the reasons how and why the victory is believable enough.

    The titans at the seat of the pantheon, their greatest seat of power are able to use their power to defeat Sargeras, or at least suck him back from Azeroth and somehow contain him. Not sure how that works, but he obviously couldn't use his body to destroy the seat, perhaps because they got his soul first.

    It's acceptable enough if you ask me.
    In my opinión we should have lost when we fought archimonde at the end of wod

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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Although many people (like they did with Argus, only more so) would complain "but muh high fantasy!", I always thought dealing with the Legion should be two expansions, one that was like 7.0 - 7.2, where we defend Azeroth from and invasion that leaves us devastated.

    Then after that, knowing that whether it be tomorrow or millennia from now, the Legion will return, the last of Azeroth takes off on an interdimensional ship (Exodar, Vindicaar, Tempest Keep, whatever) to take the fight to the Legion. But it wouldn't just be Argus, the heroes know they would be swatted like flies.

    Instead, the expansion would involve hopping between various worlds throughout the Great Dark and the Twisting Nether. Gathering new races as allies, making quick in-and-out strikes against key Legion strongholds, and collecting various powerful artifacts to use against the Legion.

    For variety sake, not every world would be dealing with the Legion threat, some we may be visiting simply to get the natives on our side or to get some super-weapon artifact. And because this would be a vast array of alien worlds, you wouldn't have to deal with an entire expansion of fel-green and black rocks.

    Then, for the final patch of the expansion, you would have Argus. But this time being invaded by a combined anti-legion army of Azeroth, Draenor, Ethereals, and a good 5-10 other worlds we've made friends with over the expansion. But from there you can have the conclusion of Argus play out more or less the same, though after 2 expansions of the Legion, it would really end with Sargeras as the final raid boss.

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    No, in the mythic-mode phase you fight him in the Nether, but he still dies on Draenor for the cinematic. So even if mythic is canon, he died on Draenor.
    Pretty sure blizzard said he is dead.

  11. #31
    I honestly felt that the whole Argus section of the xpac was the worst part. Argus was an annoying zone, hard to get around, no flying. The 5-man dungeon was lame. The raid entrance was really oddly placed and annoying to get to.

    The raid itself was the worst raid of the xpac, horribly designed where you were bouncing around from portal to portal instead of just progressing through a zone. Random fights like Eonar in the flower garden felt out of place.

    The last boss was underwhelming. Suddenly we're fighting with a bunch of random titan ghosts or something against a guy named Argus. Is he the planet? Why do we care? Didn't feel like it had much to do with "legion".

    Maybe if you read all the books and watched all the cutscenes and all the little short web movies it made sense somehow, but to me, the casual player who's been on and off since vanilla, it was like "what is this?".

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by phattsao View Post
    I honestly felt that the whole Argus section of the xpac was the worst part. Argus was an annoying zone, hard to get around, no flying. The 5-man dungeon was lame. The raid entrance was really oddly placed and annoying to get to.

    The raid itself was the worst raid of the xpac, horribly designed where you were bouncing around from portal to portal instead of just progressing through a zone. Random fights like Eonar in the flower garden felt out of place.

    The last boss was underwhelming. Suddenly we're fighting with a bunch of random titan ghosts or something against a guy named Argus. Is he the planet? Why do we care? Didn't feel like it had much to do with "legion".

    Maybe if you read all the books and watched all the cutscenes and all the little short web movies it made sense somehow, but to me, the casual player who's been on and off since vanilla, it was like "what is this?".
    Is not Blizzard's fault if you are not paying attention.

  13. #33
    Over 9000! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Quote for this. The first, second, and third in charge were all wiped out and we all spent a good chunk of out legion storylines hounding down various other ranks among the leadership. That is all.

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    I wouldn't have minded this idea over BFA's faction war, to be enitrely honest....

    Properly deal with the legion threat? cause imo taking out Sargeras in a patch is a bit of a let down.
    Oh I would have absolutely preferred World of Warcraft: Argus to World of Warcraft: My Faction can beat up Your Faction.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    We literally took down their entire military command. They're mostly fucked.
    Tichondrius is still around, so is Mal'ganis, Anatheron, Mephistroph, et al. Literally the only two named dreadlords we've actually permanently killed were Balnazzar and Varimthras. All the other high level dreadlords are still alive and well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tankbug View Post
    Sure, I just didn't understand anything when they pulled Sargeras out of clound surrounding Azeroth or wtf happened.
    Way I see it Sargeras converted himself into that cloudlike form so he could sneak through the portal between Argus and Azeroth while we were busy assaulting Antorus. If you'll look into the skybox of the raid you first see the cloud during the mercenary bomber demon fight, then see it spread around the planet during the Aggramar and Argus fights. On mythic Argus you see cloud Sargeras speak to and empower Argus.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  15. #35
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    So you don't think the fact we were fighting world souls instead of the actual beings makes a significant difference? or you already factored that in?
    I don't think we were fighting world-souls in their fullness of their power, no. We fought an avatar of Aggramar, and then we fought the diminished (but still insanely powerful) world-soul of Argus, albeit with the aid of the Pantheon. In the end it also killed us, but Eonar revived us and the other Titans funneled their power into us allowing us to fight the Titan Argus to a standstill so he could be imprisoned as well.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    I'm all for the classes having their own story and so on, but things like this, that's the primary motivation on what had been the primary villain for a decade, surely they could have had the Warlock NPC representative mention this in a cutscene, or even just gossip/flavour text when spoken to so we could find out about that. :/
    Don't worry, the man is lying, nothing like that happens in the warlock campaign. And I think that he is also wrong, sargeras wasn't in love with azeroth, azeroth is corrupted, so he wanted to just destroy her, only she is so powerful that this time he decided to try something different, he tried to "cure" her so she would be reborn as a dark Titan (not Dark=void). Sargeras was trying to create his own dark pantheon of corrupted titans, he didn't wanted to kill azeroth, he wanted her "cured" from the void and "corrupted" by him

  17. #37
    Elemental Lord HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Sargeras isn't taken out in any way, shape or form. The titans temporarily locked him up. The titans couldn't even handle properly locking up the old gods, who all leaked out of their prisons prior to us killing them (or freeing them).

    Sargeras will 110% escape, probably during late Shadowlands.

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    No one was taken down. Demons regenerate in the twisting nether. Everyone "beaten" in Antorus will be back eventually.

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    That's the joke.jpg
    Okay, demons die either in Fel saturated areas, or in places in the Nether or in places that are connected to the Nether. Argus is both the first and third in terms of being a Legion capital. This has been stated on way more than 1 occasion.

    So no, they will not come back. Also, I hate not getting jokes.

  18. #38
    Wasn't believable in the slightest. The Legion is supposedly infinite demons that have wiped out millions of planets...

    Would have been easier to swallow for me if "Argus is the Legion's forward teleportation hub. If we destroy the citadel there, it will take them 10,000 years to travel through deep space back to it before they can start attacking Azeroth again".

  19. #39
    We didn't defeat shit, demons will 100% return under some resurrected character
    lol it's just a video game plot guys, wake up

    Legion is a metaphor for machines of our reality. Machines have already won, we are doomed
    Shadowlands is real world
    The Maw is China
    The Jailer is China government
    Sylvanas is Blizz

  20. #40
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephys View Post
    Don't worry, the man is lying, nothing like that happens in the warlock campaign. And I think that he is also wrong, sargeras wasn't in love with azeroth, azeroth is corrupted, so he wanted to just destroy her, only she is so powerful that this time he decided to try something different, he tried to "cure" her so she would be reborn as a dark Titan (not Dark=void). Sargeras was trying to create his own dark pantheon of corrupted titans, he didn't wanted to kill azeroth, he wanted her "cured" from the void and "corrupted" by him
    Actually they are correct, although this information is contained in the Artifact description text for the Scepter of Sargeras and not really a part of the Warlock Order Hall campaign so to speak.
    Originally Posted by Tome of Blighted Implements
    Soon after the War of the Ancients, Sargeras had a vision: the Well of Eternity imploded once again, but this time, it dragged him down to the very core of Azeroth. He was there for only an instant, but in that moment, he saw Azeroth's slumbering world-soul--and in that moment, the world-soul opened one eye and gazed at the Dark Titan. He was enraptured.

    Since then, the eye of Azeroth's world-soul has not been far from his thoughts. He commanded the eredar who forged the scepter to crown it with that lone, wondrous orb. Next to it, the eredar placed two nathrezim wings, a testament to Sargeras's conception of the world-soul: corrupted, demonic, and most importantly, his. (Source)
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

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