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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    One would believe that after 15 years people would have all of this figured out.

    Supply and demand

    The market will adjust, people will farm more and reduce the useless consumption when it can be avoided.

    As somebody else mentioned in this thread, it is probably a problem that's getting blown out of proportion. People will probably breeze through the content now that players are more skilled and know how to be more efficient without the need of that many consumables.
    The problem with vanilla is that gear in and even in BWL was a very, very small power creep. You could learn the bosses better and that would help to prevent mistakes, but in terms of actual speed, gearing the raid better didn't help in an exponential manner. If MC took, say, 60 minutes to clear, gearing the raid out in tip top gear might reduce that to 40 minutes. Flasking the entire raid, and using some sort of onyxia buff or something, however, would cut that time down to 20 minutes. Flasks are such a massive buff compared to the actual gear that not using them in many cases doubles the amount of time you spend raiding. It is not a "small" amount.

    This is not the case in today's current game, but for Vanilla, those alchemy buffs were a pretty darn big deal. Tthe reason everyone is flasking is because it makes the farming portion of the game go significantly faster, which is arguably the most boring part of the game and is the most soul sucking. Any way to reduce that portion of the game is a big deal. I think in Classic, people just didn't have this mindset, as I recall what an insane hassle it was just to get an entire raid of 40 to flask, and then what a crazy hassle it was to farm multple flasks each week. Raiding was insanely time consuming and expensive back then due to this. Again as you say, it's probably gotten better these days just simply because people know what to do.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  2. #82
    Thanks for this. Now I'm gonna buy out flasks when I see them, sit on them to drive up demand and sell them to you for 400g each? Or maybe for even more.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    This has nothing to do with it though. These spawn locations are situated for a realm of vanilla's size, so that's what, 2k total? We're seeing realms with 60k people.
    Vanilla realms were around 2.5 to 3.5k concurrent according the devs, not total, total number will be much higher.
    Realmsize is generally spoken about in terms of concurrent users as thats the metric thats important for the performance, not total pop.

    This won't be an issue though, ppl need to get away from the mindset that flasks or full consumes are mandatory. because they are not, they are fun to use from time to time but you don't need flasks or full consumes to clear the content, far from it.
    Last edited by chronia; 2020-01-15 at 06:41 AM.

  4. #84
    There isnt a shortage of lotus and there wont be for aq or naxx. People are sitting on them for later and selling sparingly right now. There really isnt much of a reason to be selling alot of it right now anyways since most players dont bother with flasks just to clear mc or ony. Id wager most of the lotus is in the banks of high end speed running guilds and people playing the AH. I know myself I have a little over 500 in the bank but I know quit a few with a lot more.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaator View Post
    It's the other way around.

    The melee take the least NR possible to maximize dps (and use a stam flask) and you bring good healers, allowing you to burn the boss nearly twice as fast.

    Notice how most guilds are now taking down Rag before 1st submerge with 1.12 talents and itemization? That's because they aren't wearing FR gear. When the content get difficult in AQ40/Naxx, you can still forfeit most NR and Frost R gear by using a Stam flask, consumables and GOOD HEALERS and burn every boss in half the time.

    Stam flasked melee + good heals can do AMAZING THINGS BRO (including an instant dispel on huhuran's wyvern sting pre-enrage)
    Yes but you were strictly talking about Vanilla before and things that were required.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaator View Post
    Vanilla Black Lotus supply doesn't meet Classic demand on modern "medium" and "high" pop servers.

    Hopefully Blizzard will implement the Pserver fix with 50+ BL spawn locations and decreased respawn times.



    --------------------------
    Edit:
    As of right now (when flasks are not necessary), my guild wants to flask to speed clear Molten Snore in 30ish minutes.

    But there's not enough SUPPLY to meet the DEMAND!

    We want to flask...we all have the gold to buy a 150-200g flask...but there' snot enough flasks or lotus on the AH to make this possible...even though we all have the gold to buy it...

    this is the problem.


    (also we want to flask for WSG premades...we got the gold...but there's nothing on the AH).
    Surely if your guild notices a lack of black lotus the solution is to buy when you can and bank until content where you actually want to use them rather then burn them on doing MC in 30 minutes?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaator View Post
    Melee dps use flask of the titans to survive Naxx mechanics and C'thun mechanics as well. Nature Protection pots won't cut it.
    Don't worry. Everyone and their grandma will be able to waltz into Naxx and take down every single boss in under 5 tries without as much as a single consumable.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    One would believe that after 15 years people would have all of this figured out.

    Supply and demand

    The market will adjust, people will farm more and reduce the useless consumption when it can be avoided.
    You can't farm more black lotus, all black lotus is farmed within 60 seconds of being spawned and it's not enough.

  9. #89
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Don't wanna be that guy, but why?

    Are you in APES or SALAD BAKERS? If not, there is 0 chance you get world first, and that's the only prestige there is in Classic, even server first no one cares. And if you aren't in those guilds and is not going for world first, then why care, no rush to kill the bosses and you will oneshot everything (slower than with flask ofc) anyway.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaator View Post
    Vanilla Black Lotus supply doesn't meet Classic demand on modern "medium" and "high" pop servers.

    Hopefully Blizzard will implement the Pserver fix with 50+ BL spawn locations and decreased respawn times.



    --------------------------
    Edit:
    As of right now (when flasks are not necessary), my guild wants to flask to speed clear Molten Snore in 30ish minutes.

    But there's not enough SUPPLY to meet the DEMAND!

    We want to flask...we all have the gold to buy a 150-200g flask...but there' snot enough flasks or lotus on the AH to make this possible...even though we all have the gold to buy it...

    this is the problem.


    (also we want to flask for WSG premades...we got the gold...but there's nothing on the AH).
    thats solely your own problem .

    plenty of normal guilds around who dont nolife.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaator View Post
    Two resto ruids roll the hots on 10 wyverns, priests have use a downranked shield, the 10 wyverns are players with high NR...now dispel. Can't dispel wyvern during the bezerk, but it's easily dispeled and healed through with downranked rejuvs, shields and renews for the first 70% of the fight.

    And yes, Stam flask is preferred to Chrom Flask here (resist flask) for this very purpose so dps has near 100% uptime. Would it upset you too that we did with a 31/20 fury prot tank with very little NR?
    Now you talk about a completely different tactic that has exactly nothing to do with using restorative potions, which you couldn't use when you are afflicted by the wyvern sting nor can you time the 30 second window of such a potion to be of any use, apart from the ticking window of 5 seconds in which you could safer be manually dispelled - while a nature potion would directly negate 2k raid damage of any source in that encounter.

    The dispellable wyvern sting also hits any random target in the raid, and not just the 10 NR berserk soakers.

    I also don't think we had any real prot tank in any state of our progression, so I would be neither surprised nor (and why even?) upset.

    And again we came full circle, when we didn't need any flask to beat the encounter 15+ years ago and the people are already doing more dps now than what people did then 2 tiers later, you won't need a flask now.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Surely if your guild notices a lack of black lotus the solution is to buy when you can and bank until content where you actually want to use them rather then burn them on doing MC in 30 minutes?
    by the time Naxx release most servers will be below 1k people anyway -_-

    so who cares

  13. #93
    That’s why it is/was/will be expensive.

  14. #94
    I certainly hope so, was hoping to make more gold from my stash.

    Also my guild is starting to be try hards and want to flask in MC once a month for speed runs, so if they become extremely rare it will stop that pointless crap.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaator View Post
    We get each run done in 14-16 minutes, one was sub 12 when we all went balls to the wall with ony buff.

    Also ret has the added bonus of wipe protection when shit goes wrong. And don't underestimate a bear druid's dps with might buff + battleshout.

    We have a Brez, innervate, LoH, BoP, DI, ret aura (which adds up over the dungeon run), thorns (good with ret aura and oil of imm), gift, leader and might/wisdom.

    How does a third fury warrior complement this? If I had my way I'd bring a marksmen hunter instead of a second fury. WOAH
    Look, I'm not saying what you're doing is slow. I'm sure it's fast and we're being nit picky about minutes or seconds that barely matter. But you got up in there with this min/maxer bravado yet your group has to pay a DPS taxe (ret pally) to get pally buffs. If you really want to max, these buffs need to come from the healer. Priest brings nothing that speeds up a run. This change alone completely eclipses the bonus you get from flasks, this is why it's silly to talk about the use of consumables when there's a much bigger gain to get from a different source.

    You also talk about defensive things )brez, DI, LoH), those are great for progression but a speed run is supposed to be perfectly under control, it's not like the mobs change place from one run to another, it's basically a choreography. Unless you have a strat that involved someone dying to speed up the process, these things don't have much value in a speed run.

    =/ No one said consumables are useless, but claiming it's for min/maxing when many other aspects of what you do are not min/maxed, it's kind of silly don't you think? Do a bunch of runs with flasks, then a bunch without flasks. You'll be amazed and how little time difference there is, if any.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    N
    The dispellable wyvern sting also hits any random target in the raid, and not just the 10 NR berserk soakers.
    Moron detected:

    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Princess_Huhuran
    Wyvern Sting - AoE sleep effect on a random area within melee range that affects up to 10 targets. If cleansed it deals 3000 nature damage.

    https://steemit.com/gaming/@sanctus/...strategy-guide

    Wyvern Sting - Puts the target to sleep. Deals 3000 nature damage if cleansed. Effects 10 random targets within melee range. Also targets pets.
    So if you want you're melee to have 100% uptime, they need flask of titans so string can be insta dispelled without them dying while wearing minimal NR gear (less NR = more dps). Each melee dps must have a downranked (rejuv + renew + shield) combo. Renew rank 3 + shield rank 5 is sufficient from a priest with +1k healing (or more).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    by the time Naxx release most servers will be below 1k people anyway -_-

    so who cares
    YOu've been saying that before classic released. Still strong and will remain so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Look, I'm not saying what you're doing is slow. I'm sure it's fast and we're being nit picky about minutes or seconds that barely matter. But you got up in there with this min/maxer bravado yet your group has to pay a DPS taxe (ret pally) to get pally buffs. If you really want to max, these buffs need to come from the healer. Priest brings nothing that speeds up a run. This change alone completely eclipses the bonus you get from flasks, this is why it's silly to talk about the use of consumables when there's a much bigger gain to get from a different source.

    You also talk about defensive things )brez, DI, LoH), those are great for progression but a speed run is supposed to be perfectly under control, it's not like the mobs change place from one run to another, it's basically a choreography. Unless you have a strat that involved someone dying to speed up the process, these things don't have much value in a speed run.

    =/ No one said consumables are useless, but claiming it's for min/maxing when many other aspects of what you do are not min/maxed, it's kind of silly don't you think? Do a bunch of runs with flasks, then a bunch without flasks. You'll be amazed and how little time difference there is, if any.

    I do more than you think, while my group is killing the current pack, I wand pull/kite/gather the next pack straight into them (while placing pain on each mob) and press fade. Also having the paladin for wipe prevention during these mass monogloid pulls and bezerk clears ultimately saves time for that one time something goes (I'd say every 4 dungeon runs, something goes wrong).

    This creates a giant meat grinder where each pack rots + dies to melee cleave in a matter 5-10 seconds per pack. Supplemented by innervate and wisdom and cheap greater mana pots. A third fury warrior wouldn't do much more than to reduce the kill time per pack, as you said, we're already splitting hairs over seconds/minutes per run.
    Last edited by Shalaator; 2020-01-15 at 04:25 PM.

  17. #97
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalaator View Post
    Moron detected:

    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Princess_Huhuran
    Wyvern Sting - AoE sleep effect on a random area within melee range that affects up to 10 targets. If cleansed it deals 3000 nature damage.

    https://steemit.com/gaming/@sanctus/...strategy-guide



    - - - Updated - - -



    YOu've been saying that before classic released. Still strong and will remain so.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I do more than you think, while my group is killing the current pack, I wand pull/kite/gather the next pack straight into them (while placing pain on each mob) and press fade. Also having the paladin for wipe prevention during these mass monogloid pulls and bezerk clears ultimately saves time for that one time something goes (I'd say every 4 dungeon runs, something goes wrong).

    This creates a giant meat grinder where each pack rots + dies to melee cleave in a matter 5-10 seconds per pack.
    Yeah I wasn't imagining you sit in the back and wait in a speed run lol, that kinda goes without saying.

  18. #98
    Why would anyone use FLASKS in MC?

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by George Costanza View Post
    Why would anyone use FLASKS in MC?
    People think doing speed runs in MC is a show of how pro you are.

    Speed runs with no consumables should be made popular!

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    No ty. That would be an uneeded change for the sake of change. Leave it how it is. If we do this change you speak of then maybe we should do other changes that are less of an impact like pallies getting taunt. Maybe hunters should get steady shot.
    That’s just plain idiotic. Your comparing an actual gameplay change to one that merely mirrors the scale change that is ALREADY part of Classic.

    If Classic has significantly larger server populations than vanilla but the same amount of resources, then players are not getting a vanilla experience.

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