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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by FlasKamel View Post
    A lack of or completely different type of storytelling doesn't automatically make it worse than a story that follows all the rules of good storytelling. The first one brings vague but interesting ideas to the table that let you use your imagination in the world you play in. The latter fleshes out stories with little left for the imagination, and in that case it's much easier to either hate or love the story.

    Maybe people enjoyed what was happening before more, even if it was told differently or even worse. I don't like the current idea everyone has of ''technically good storytelling/writing'' - ''good'' writing doesn't matter if the storyline doesn't appeal to you. Good writing doesn't matter if you don't like the direction or how it's done.

    Personally I enjoyed the story more in older expansions because it felt more like smaller more immersive developments in the world we spent time in, where we and the people we play with are the main characters interpreting and theorizing or daydreaming about what's going on around the world. These days the main stories revolve around the personalities of characters we barely get to meet, and the major moments are about how they feel. Sure that works better in a movie or series or single player game; not in an MMO where the story is updated 2-3 times a year. 2-3 times to be told ''we're here now, and this is how some cartoon character feels about it.''
    The first one also allows you to project what you want onto a character only to get mad when the character is actually fleshed out and it's not what you want.

    As for the "these days the stories revolve around characters we barely get to me" I don't really buy that. The characters we're interacting with have been, for the most part, with us for years. We have Magni going from king under the mountain forging Ashbringer when he thought he lost his brother and fearing for his kidnapped daughter to petrified to the Speaker of Azeroth. We have Anduin from young boy to a teenager in MoP where we get a feel for the kind of person he's growing into, up to the present. Saying we "barely get to meet them" is factually dishonest. We've been watching these characters develop for a decade or more.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  2. #42
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    FlasKamel
    Personally I enjoyed the story more in older expansions because it felt more like smaller more immersive developments in the world we spent time in, where we and the people we play with are the main characters interpreting and theorizing or daydreaming about what's going on around the world. These days the main stories revolve around the personalities of characters we barely get to meet, and the major moments are about how they feel. Sure that works better in a movie or series or single player game; not in an MMO where the story is updated 2-3 times a year. 2-3 times to be told ''we're here now, and this is how some cartoon character feels about it.''
    Just like I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    5) Lore:
    Question is too complicated and I don't think that I have enough qualification to say something concretely, but if we base on theory that we are all just mercenaries and casual passers-by, then Classic still is best with it's quests organization, the rest are on descending (simply because they changed what would have been known earlier or used retcon, and the further the more). If we consider expansions as a "separate story to be told" then Classic didn't have much of it - it didn't impose you, but suggested to understand how world is arranged and where it all goes yourself. I always liked this approach better for this game. "Big story" is typical for a single player game, because it can be passed and it won't become "obsolete". For MMORPG imposition of the plot - is one of nails in coffin of expansions progress system (damage to open world like phasing, global changes etc.) and also partially of role-playing game. I can agree that MoP told us an interesting unattached to anything separate story, but it severely damaged my gameplay. WotLK told generally bad story, very incoherent and not consistent, although it had some little interesting elements. WoD was last expansion I saw, which repulsed all the interest of the game due to introduction of new characters models and judging by tendency to "dictate" the story, which they didn't have time to implement fully - it looked unfinished. Legion (base already on my friends' experience) looked one of the most stupid in terms of plotting (whose baton, judging by introductory events and irresponsible, incalculable allied races themes, will be catched by BfA), but none of them did play further. I can't answer anything specifically on this point more than I did now.
    Devil is in details (also here and(+/+) afore, we discussed partly ideology of this stuff). Same story is in organization of game's quest system, in fact, it's necessary to start criticism exactly from it. Which, however, will lead us to world's organization discussion, automation systems and other stuff that I promised not to touch anymore.
    FlasKamel
    Can't say I fully understood your comment, but appreciated the depth.
    My direct comment was directly in "my post" quoted by me (if you follow original link, then you'll find discussion about "Best WoW expansion"), rest is more likely just a remark ... which, if without using technical details, can be reduced to approximately this: speed and particularity of story/characters presentation would have changed greatly if they had followed a faithful world design.

    Don't believe me? Well, just look at Isle of Kel-Danas (it was their very first and rather timid effort in using phase technology) - with same approach they would now be able to write almost completely whole plot of BC with much more stripped-down content (territories, quests, dungeons) as just one of current patches, leave rest to scaling/phasing/RNG and videos with "spewing fake pathos scary grimacing faces"... but who's need this? children, who lack imagination to fill gaps themselves? "faster-faster" mentality? devs, to reduce cost of production?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-01-28 at 09:18 AM.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The first one also allows you to project what you want onto a character only to get mad when the character is actually fleshed out and it's not what you want.
    I don't understand why this has to be a problem for people in a game that's more about the world than about the characters. Why is it a problem to have our own ideas of who the characters are even if we're wrong? Why is ''this is exactly what the character's like'' necessarily a good thing? Even in the cases where I like the direction they took with characters I prefered not focusing on them and their emotions and rather let us have some of our own fantasy, especially because it's updated so rarely that they don't get to flesh them out enough.

    Also dislike the way you go about it. ''Project' and ''get mad'' - I don't. I just prefered not knowing the characters the way we do now.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    As for the "these days the stories revolve around characters we barely get to me" I don't really buy that. --- Saying we "barely get to meet them" is factually dishonest. We've been watching these characters develop for a decade or more.
    For a decade in real-time, yes. If you see how much time we get to see them in-game it's a few hours at most, and again; only with short updates a few times a year. It works in a single-player game where you spend time with the characters constantly. In an MMO it feels more like meeting someone you went to school with, ''so what are you up to these days?''.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Just like I saidevil is in details (also here and(+/+) afore, we discussed partly ideology of this stuff). Same story is in organization of game's quest system, in fact, it's necessary to start criticism exactly from it. Which, however, will lead us to world's organization discussion, automation systems and other stuff that I promised not to touch anymore.
    Can't say I fully understood your comment, but appreciated the depth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    Why yes, Blizz sure is a bunch of happy fellas!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by FlasKamel View Post
    I don't understand why this has to be a problem for people in a game that's more about the world than about the characters. Why is it a problem to have our own ideas of who the characters are even if we're wrong? Why is ''this is exactly what the character's like'' necessarily a good thing? Even in the cases where I like the direction they took with characters I prefered not focusing on them and their emotions and rather let us have some of our own fantasy, especially because it's updated so rarely that they don't get to flesh them out enough.

    Also dislike the way you go about it. ''Project' and ''get mad'' - I don't. I just prefered not knowing the characters the way we do now.



    For a decade in real-time, yes. If you see how much time we get to see them in-game it's a few hours at most, and again; only with short updates a few times a year. It works in a single-player game where you spend time with the characters constantly. In an MMO it feels more like meeting someone you went to school with, ''so what are you up to these days?''.



    Can't say I fully understood your comment, but appreciated the depth.
    Take a look at the user BreadIsFunny if you want a good example of why this is bad. This person has spent the last 20 some odd years since WC2 came out building up the character of "Alleria Windrunner" in his head. When we actually found out what Alleria was like in Legion, he flipped his shit and his sig is accusing Blizzard of "assassinating" Alleria's character and every one of his posts is ranting about it. In short, people get mad when their headcanon is jossed.

    Sorry your memory is bad, I guess? Maybe you should go onto wowpedia and re-acquaint yourself with the lore if you're having trouble understanding how characters have developed the way they have.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Take a look at the user BreadIsFunny if you want a good example of why this is bad.
    I don't see how this one user you brought up has anything to do with my personal preference on storytelling in an MMO...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    Why yes, Blizz sure is a bunch of happy fellas!

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by FlasKamel View Post
    I don't see how this one user you brought up has anything to do with my personal preference on storytelling in an MMO...
    "I don't understand why this has to be a problem for people in a game that's more about the world than about the characters. Why is it a problem to have our own ideas of who the characters are even if we're wrong?" This is what you said. I'm telling YOU the bad the that happen when people create headcanon about characters and become toxic assholes on the forums when their illusions are jossed. Sorry if you keep missing the point. Some people cannot deal with headcanon being jossed.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    "I don't understand why this has to be a problem for people in a game that's more about the world than about the characters. Why is it a problem to have our own ideas of who the characters are even if we're wrong?" This is what you said. I'm telling YOU the bad the that happen when people create headcanon about characters and become toxic assholes on the forums when their illusions are jossed. Sorry if you keep missing the point. Some people cannot deal with headcanon being jossed.
    That can be a problem with anything. People are people, and some people are crazy.
    Using that as an argument against mine isn't fair; whether I'm in the minority or not, you shouldn't write a story based on how people will react to it. I still stand by my idea of what I prefer no matter if other people overreact or not.

    You also ignore my other points. My main issue isn't the characters personalities, but that the main focus is on some characters and their feelings.
    Last edited by FlasKamel; 2020-01-17 at 03:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    Why yes, Blizz sure is a bunch of happy fellas!

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by FlasKamel View Post
    That can be a problem with anything. People are people, and some people are crazy.
    Using that as an argument against mine isn't fair; whether I'm in the minority or not, you shouldn't write a story based on how people will react to it. I still stand by my idea of what I prefer no matter if other people overreact or not.

    You also ignore my other points. My main issue isn't the characters personalities, but that the main focus is on some characters and their feelings.
    I'm not talking about writing a story with what people will say about it in mind, that's only you.

    Sorry you hate character drven plots, I guess?
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I'm not talking about writing a story with what people will say about it in mind, that's only you.

    Sorry you hate character drven plots, I guess?
    I said: ''The first one brings vague but interesting ideas to the table that let you use your imagination in the world you play in.''
    You said: ''The first one also allows you to project what you want onto a character only to get mad when the character is actually fleshed out and it's not what you want.''
    I respond: ''I don't understand why this has to be a problem for people in a game that's more about the world than about the characters.''
    You respond: ''This is what you said. I'm telling YOU the bad the that happen when people create headcanon about characters and become toxic assholes on the forums--''

    So if your problem with my first take is how ''people react to it'', then how are you not saying they should write the story with peoples reaction in mind? That was you only argument; how people react.

    And stop with the sass, putting words in my mouth with a question mark after it, just discuss it normally smh. I, again, am just sharing my opinion and you're completely ignoring the context and reasoning I gave. I don't hate character driven plots, I just don't feel like it works properly in a rarely updated MMO.

    If your opinion is different I don't mind, of course I don't, but you're not making sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    Why yes, Blizz sure is a bunch of happy fellas!

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