Rerolling as BDK for next Expansion: Is it risky with how lackluster they are?

[Wokopoly]

What do you guys think? Risky?

[Cyi]

Nope, I just did the same thing. Why are they lackluster? Still a healers favorite in M+.

What do you guys think? Risky?

[Radaney]

You don't play at the top 0.01% where class choice matters in any reasonable regard for world first raiding or tournament level M+, especially for tanking where typically it matters even less.

Having said that BDK typically aren't 'lackluster'. Except for this one patch where they still aren't lackluster except for the the top 0.01%.

[Th3Scourge]

You don't play at the top 0.01% where class choice matters in any reasonable regard for world first raiding or tournament level M+, especially for tanking where typically it matters even less.

Having said that BDK typically aren't 'lackluster'. Except for this one patch where they still aren't lackluster except for the the top 0.01%.

They are the lowest represented tank in 20+ keys for a reason. They suffer greatly from their spiky health pools and unpredictable incoming damage

[Alaenore]

They are the lowest represented tank in 20+ keys for a reason. They suffer greatly from their spiky health pools and unpredictable incoming damage

Raider.io has a sample size of 9411 timed 20+ run, and 2.9 million timed runs, all difficulties included.
Only 0.3% of the runs.

They're more represented than guardian and vengeance in 15+, and than brewmaster in 10+.

So yeah, Blood are totally fine for most content, and you could even time 20+ keys with it.

[crakerjack]

Play whatever you want. Unless you're trying to be the best in the world, worrying about what you play shouldn't matter. Every class/spec is capable of doing mythic raiding and +15's.

[msdos]

Since this thread will no doubt be min/max compulsion and irrelevant IO representation in a dead game, I'll chime in with actual concrete notes on playing the class:

Playing a BDK feels bad. I wouldn't say it's risky, since they might get AMZ back, which is HUGE for mitigation on yourself, forget about everyone else lol.
But I'll say picking BDK isn't the path of least resistance and it might not even be that fun for you.

BDK is all reactive mitigation other than Rune Tap and IBF. Gaining runic power feels really bad. You have no alternative ways to get it without sacrificing mitigation and you only have one way to dump it single target and 2-3 cleave.
You're really slow, you get RP really slowly, your runes regen slowly, the missle on your mob pull ability travels really slowly, the disease that heals passively ticks really slowly and the talent for it is really shitty (why does the disease exist??), Rune Strike recharges really slowly, you reactively death strike pretty slowly.

The keyword for BDK is: slow, lethargic, unresponsive. It just feels like an outdated relic class out of place in a modern, gogogogogo game, period. I'm about to reroll to something else for tanking purposes lol.

[Radaney]

Since this thread will no doubt be min/max compulsion and irrelevant IO representation in a dead game, I'll chime in with actual concrete notes on playing the class:

Playing a BDK feels bad. I wouldn't say it's risky, since they might get AMZ back, which is HUGE for mitigation on yourself, forget about everyone else lol.
But I'll say picking BDK isn't the path of least resistance and it might not even be that fun for you.

BDK is all reactive mitigation other than Rune Tap and IBF. Gaining runic power feels really bad. You have no alternative ways to get it without sacrificing mitigation and you only have one way to dump it single target and 2-3 cleave.
You're really slow, you get RP really slowly, your runes regen slowly, the missle on your mob pull ability travels really slowly, the disease that heals passively ticks really slowly and the talent for it is really shitty (why does the disease exist??), Rune Strike recharges really slowly, you reactively death strike pretty slowly.

The keyword for BDK is: slow, lethargic, unresponsive. It just feels like an outdated relic class out of place in a modern, gogogogogo game, period. I'm about to reroll to something else for tanking purposes lol.

I agree, I personally find Brewmaster to be the most fun to play.

Guardian also feels pretty sluggish in comparison.

Brew, Vengeance and both Prots both feel pretty great to play in comparison to blood and guardian.

[Sangfoudre]

What do you guys think? Risky?

HOW the fu*k are they lackluster?
They are perfectly fine in MM+, raids, BG and are the best spec EVER for solo.

[Stacie]

Will be fine at the start (always are especially for m+) But then might fall back but never know. Paladin is normally always as ok choice if you want to play it safe, never the worst, sometimes one of the best.

[Aleloron]

The keyword for BDK is: slow, lethargic, unresponsive. It just feels like an outdated relic class out of place in a modern, gogogogogo game, period. I'm about to reroll to something else for tanking purposes lol.

I think that your critique of Blood is mostly fair; however, I would state that even though it does have problems it can be pretty fun. I’ve main’d a DK since Wraith and have been Blood ever since it became the single DK tanking spec. While I am in no way an epic/leet/hardcore player I am at least mostly competent in my favorite class and I wholeheartedly encourage our OP here to give it a shot. Blood DK is as close to authorized, legal cheating as Blizzard will allow. I’m nearly invincible in Blood; hell most of my deaths have come from falling damage! I don’t think that I have ever died to a mob or even a world “rare”, and while I rarely do 5-Mans or Raids I’ve not died much in those either (though I freely admit perhaps more deaths than a better player would suffer) and so leveling through an expansion as a Blood DK is easy-peasy. I’m terrible at PvP, yet it still often takes multiple Alliance to bring my Tauren down; I will never forget doing some Tol Barad back during Cata and it took five Alliance toons to take me out. I felt like a boss, haha!

The rotation is fairly mind-numbing, I won’t insult your intelligence by claiming otherwise. All in all I do not believe that the negatives outweigh the positives and I don’t see myself changing my main to another class any time soon.

[Alaenore]

Since this thread will no doubt be min/max compulsion and irrelevant IO representation in a dead game, I'll chime in with actual concrete notes on playing the class:

Playing a BDK feels bad. I wouldn't say it's risky, since they might get AMZ back, which is HUGE for mitigation on yourself, forget about everyone else lol.
But I'll say picking BDK isn't the path of least resistance and it might not even be that fun for you.

BDK is all reactive mitigation other than Rune Tap and IBF. Gaining runic power feels really bad. You have no alternative ways to get it without sacrificing mitigation and you only have one way to dump it single target and 2-3 cleave.
You're really slow, you get RP really slowly, your runes regen slowly, the missle on your mob pull ability travels really slowly, the disease that heals passively ticks really slowly and the talent for it is really shitty (why does the disease exist??), Rune Strike recharges really slowly, you reactively death strike pretty slowly.

The keyword for BDK is: slow, lethargic, unresponsive. It just feels like an outdated relic class out of place in a modern, gogogogogo game, period. I'm about to reroll to something else for tanking purposes lol.

I don't really agree.
- Generating PR isn't really an issue, since Marrowrend is used to refresh bne shield anyway and has to be over 5 stacks to reduce DS cost ;
- If you're ressource starved you can switch to heartbreaker in AOE or Rune Strike to smooth things, in exchange to some damages ;
- You usually pull in ST with Blooddrinker or cross the Dc with a taunt ;
- Since we're getting Death Coil back, it'll give an alternative RP spender for when we won't be in melee ;
- The disease exists because in multitarget it's a great source of self heal and damage, in which case if healing isn't the main focus, can prove to be more DPS than Hemostasis ;
- Haste does wonder for rune regen.

I've been tanking most bossed in EP, and we're far from the sluggish gameplay you're describing.

[Nnyco]

Since this thread will no doubt be min/max compulsion and irrelevant IO representation in a dead game, I'll chime in with actual concrete notes on playing the class:

Playing a BDK feels bad. I wouldn't say it's risky, since they might get AMZ back, which is HUGE for mitigation on yourself, forget about everyone else lol.
But I'll say picking BDK isn't the path of least resistance and it might not even be that fun for you.

BDK is all reactive mitigation other than Rune Tap and IBF. Gaining runic power feels really bad. You have no alternative ways to get it without sacrificing mitigation and you only have one way to dump it single target and 2-3 cleave.
You're really slow, you get RP really slowly, your runes regen slowly, the missle on your mob pull ability travels really slowly, the disease that heals passively ticks really slowly and the talent for it is really shitty (why does the disease exist??), Rune Strike recharges really slowly, you reactively death strike pretty slowly.

The keyword for BDK is: slow, lethargic, unresponsive. It just feels like an outdated relic class out of place in a modern, gogogogogo game, period. I'm about to reroll to something else for tanking purposes lol.

You sound like you played dk with green gear once and then never again.

[msdos]

I agree, I personally find Brewmaster to be the most fun to play.

Guardian also feels pretty sluggish in comparison.

Brew, Vengeance and both Prots both feel pretty great to play in comparison to blood and guardian.

I'm eyeballing Prot, I have a guardian, but I'm also messing with a pally. Just feeling up the tanking field.

I think that your critique of Blood is mostly fair; however, I would state that even though it does have problems it can be pretty fun.
The rotation is fairly mind-numbing, I won’t insult your intelligence by claiming otherwise. All in all I do not believe that the negatives outweigh the positives and I don’t see myself changing my main to another class any time soon.

Good post. I mean if you're satisfied with lackluster talents, then no one can change your mind. All I'm saying is BDK could be so much better, it was already so much better, don't understand how anyone could argue with me on that point.

As for these other posts, I'm just ignoring them. They're just counter-attack nitpicks, they don't offer anything of value to the discussion at hand.

Feel free to list all the positives about playing BDK compared to the other tanks.

[Moonsorrow]

I totally agreed with @msdos. At the moment BDK is definitely not fun to play. Mained BDK in BfA until end of CoS befor switiching to BrM.

BDK feels slow and spiky in most relevant PvE content (high M+ and Mythic raids) compared to other tanks. And honestly I don't know where you heard that BDK are a healer favorite in M+, the spikiness of their HP pool gives them a heart attack. Truth is that they can be very selfsuficient in low damage situations but on the other end in high damage situations you feel like a wet noodle.

In addition almost all class specific azerithe traits for BDK are weak and you prefer the generic ones, which is definitely not fun.

At the current state I'd not recommend to switch to BDK. Sure you can time your +10 Mythics and probably raid Mythic as BDK but there is no good argument to switch to BDK over another tank.

[schwank05]

They are a joke since Blizzard destroyed the class at the end of Wrath with the pre CATA patch. When they killed Blood DPS they killed DK's.

[Kendros]

Super risky youll be safer on a war probably.

- - - Updated - - -

Raider.io has a sample size of 9411 timed 20+ run, and 2.9 million timed runs, all difficulties included.
Only 0.3% of the runs.

They're more represented than guardian and vengeance in 15+, and than brewmaster in 10+.

So yeah, Blood are totally fine for most content, and you could even time 20+ keys with it.

That beacuse after you overgear something, which is easy by ths point of the patch for 15s, it becomes extremely trivial and you require pretty much no healing. When you actualy need to be healed to stay alive blood is garbage, the worst tank easily.

[Sithalos]

We have no idea what class design is going to look like in Shadowlands. Any early main swapping is risky.

[Raisei]

I mained a BDK in Uldir and part of Dazar and was mostly enjoying. Then came the nerfs and it became really frustrating. Basically a Tank needs 3 things to be viable and fun: Mitigation, Mobility and Utility. I'll try to show in a few points why DK falls sadly behind atm.

1) Mitigation
Playing a "Tank" that can get nearly one-shot by a bosses hit through mitigation is quite annoying. Fetid Devoured was quite painful to tank after the nerfs. You were just constantly stressed to make enough RP to heal up after the next of his hits and cycle though all your CDs. I imagine the same goes for Orgazoa's first attacks in EP now.

Meanwhile my Brewmaster yawns and sips some Iron Brew when the squid attacks, basically reinacting the scene of Neo fighting two Agents with one hand in Matrix 2.

It would already help if you could apply Bone Shield at range so you are not basically naked for the first second the boss melees you or if you would actually start with a full RP bar that allows you to immediately use Deathstrike if needed instead of requiring 2-3 globals before you can. I also hate that the healing of Deathstrike is based on damage received in the last 5 seconds. Sooo easy to miss that window if you are low on RP or away from the boss for mechanics.

2) Mobility
The mobility of the DK is a friggin joke. I get that the Pulls are somewhat of a replacement for this and that the class fantasy is of a slow unstoppable Juggernaut of Death, but both of these things do not help you if a raid bosses mechanic forces you to run as far away as possible very often. This was actually what broke it for me. The spikyness I could deal with, just meant I had to play better, but mobility was nothing I could improve myself and the fights were not designed with a class as slow as the DK in mind.

During Dazar'Alor progress on Rastakhan he constantly forces you to run away and explode away from the group. Doing that with a 60 second mobility CD and another much weaker one on 45 seconds was close to impossible and again very stressful.
And this is not an isolated case. Many bosses require you to run away to do things or stand at certain points. The Loa guys, Kelp elemental and Jaina all had such things attached, In EP you have Za'quul that requires a lot of repositioning and evading of tentacle slaps. It is possible, but certainly not made easy with the DKs toolkit.

As a Brewmaster I can torpedo over the entire map every 10 seconds or so with a speed buff afterwards on top, or I can get a second mobility CD that I can even give to someone else if I want.

3) Utility
Utility wise the DK is pretty mediocre. You got a single target stun, your pulls and that is about it. Sure the pulls are awesome and very unique, but they have very little use in raids and the aoe pull has a brutally long CD, of course you have super strong self-healing, maybe even beating healer, this does make the DK very self-sufficient.

Brewmasters have an aoe stun, aoe pushback (talented, incredible for the small adds on Azshara), aoe taunt (talented, bit clunky), speed boost for yourself or allies, dispell for diseases (Gunker in Mechagon is a joke with a Monk in the party, can just dispell the bots or allies), Magic-dispelling CD, Teleport, a heal that can be cast on allies or yourself and a CC.

4) Conclusion:
I did compare it mostly to Brewmasters who are pretty much the strongest Tank atm, but not only because of their incredibly good mitigation, they also bring super mobility and utility. People will wrongly tell you that Brewmasters are easy mode tanks, but those usually have no idea how the class works.

On all 3 points I find the DK lackluster in comparison, I could also compare it to other Tanks, but it is usually behind, especially on Mitigation and Mobility. It is quite paradox that one of the plate wearing tanks has the lowest armor of all tanks. The only Tanks I find even worse are Druids and DHs.

So while you CAN certainly play the game as DK and surely get your Ahead of the Curve you will always have to work a lot more then other Tanks.

[therealbowser]

If you're genuinely concerned, wait until the alpha/beta and then see how the class/spec is doing. I don't think they are doing that badly now, and I think they will be okay in Shadowlands. However, I may be being a bit optimistic, but the same time, we have no information yet, anyways.

- - - Updated - - -

We have no idea what class design is going to look like in Shadowlands. Any early main swapping is risky.

This basically. And the new expansion will be a fresh start anyways, so there's no need to fret about switching mains right now.