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  1. #41
    Warchief Notshauna's Avatar
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    That's a shame because the scaling difficulties has allowed for a massive improvement in pretty much every aspect of raiding. The vast majority of players have a difficulty mode that is sufficiently challenging without being too difficult to complete. To me the only sore spot in the system is that the gap between Heroic and Mythic is too large, where an additional difficulty mode would better meet the needs of most serious raiders.
    Last edited by Notshauna; 2020-01-15 at 07:28 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Most people don't care if there is multiple or 1 difficulty. They don't think further than "Am I having fun?". That's the extent of their logic. They don't say "I only have fun if we have 4 difficulties and unlimited dungeon scaling", do they?

    And I think more people would say they are having fun if the dungeon and raid system was "I do this so I can beat this next boss".
    Ok so, lots of assumptions that are flat out wrong. First, they arnt unlimited scaling. Second, no one would be having fun in LFR if 10 people left and the mobs / bosses didn't scale so they could keep going instead of sitting around waiting for 10 more people. So, yes, scaling is allowing them to have fun since its the only way they can keep raiding in any capacity at times.

    That 15 man guild just lose 5 people? They can still raid as always. So yes, they are having fun still because they can actually raid still that week vs having to call it off due to 5 people.

    Third, there is not "many" players saying it sucks. I've seen you, and only you, complaining about scaling. I have seen nothing but praise from everyone about scaling raids from day 1 since it suddenly meant we can raid vs not being able to at all.

    Fourth, saying "how is it fun to fight the same boss with higher hps/dps" is asinine. What, its somehow more fun to fight the same boss without more hps/dps? If your guild is any good, or you're in lfr, you can't even tell its hps/dps went up. Its literally "im killing the same boss again for X piece of gear" for weeks.

    So, if its not fun to kill the same boss, do blame scaling. Blame RNG and needing gear. Scaling is nothing but a positive. You're the only one who doesn't agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  3. #43
    So you're specifically complaining about difficulty modes, not flexible 10-25 man raiding?

    I mean I get what you're saying. "Getting to see more of the raid" was, but no longer is, a motivator towards gearing yourself up to get further in the raid. Albeit, in my experience from raiding BC-WotLK, that literally never happened, we were stuck on the first 4-5 bosses of one raid for the entire bloody expansion. The only reason I have fond memories is that those were really damn good bosses, Ulduar/Karazhan for life. The mechanic where you can skip ahead if you beat the raid to a certain degree enough times is a good premise, but we never used it because it was easier to grind the bosses we knew than try bosses we sucked at. I never got to see the other 3/4 of those amazing raids until years later doing transmog runs.

    So I'm still in favor of difficulty modes. Other challenges, like Legion's Mage Tower, to drive the gearing process above LFR, are the key.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  4. #44
    So you think less options means there is more fun?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    You should have just said you don't have any arguments on this topic and that you want to act cool cuz you raid the 2nd easiest difficulty in the game and left this comment unposted.
    You don't need to be an asshole just because your opinion is going to be in the extreme minority around here.

    Personally I would not want to play the same game as you. Had they not added scaling difficulty I would have quit a long time ago. I like a challenge and the single difficulty endgame was never engaging past the initial runs.

  6. #46
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    So why have you been playing since wotlk?

    Its been 13 years since that was added, why are you still around, why has it taken you till just now, and why do you think they will suddenly change their mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    I am tired of constantly seeing scaling dungeons and raids. It is a bad and lazy design that completely puts me, and MANY others, off doing it.

    My motivation to do a raid is to "beat it". My motivation to do content before it, is to get gear so I can do the later content.

    Once I beat Illidan in TBC, I quit raiding. I know sunwell came after, but my motivation was set on Illidan. Once I beat Lich King on NORMAL difficulty with a bunch of dumb catch up week stacks in WotLK, I quit raiding. In Cataclysm, I only did 10 man, cuz it's less effort to beat the content. After LFR, I have quit raiding completely.

    This whole M+ system is so unbelieveably unfun. I enjoyed Kara in Legion as a "megadungeon" with only 1 difficulty. How hard is it to keep dungeons being 1 difficulty?

    People started bitching a little in WotLK when there was hard modes in Ulduar, and when it turned to a UI choice in Trail raid, it really started rubbing people the wrong way.

    Classic has no scaling. TBC has only scaling in Dungeons (would have been better without heroics too). These are the best parts of WoW. Coincidence? I think not...

    Shadowlands, same stupid scaling systems.

    How exactly is it fun to do the same boss fight again with higher HP/DPS?

    EDIT:
    Look at games like Dark Souls, being much more enjoyable exactly BECAUSE they don't have a difficulty slider.

    What we need is some raids being easy (early ones) and some being hard (last raid of the expansion). Then guilds can get stuck at whatever skill level they are at. It's completely OK that Method beats the early raids in a week.
    You know Darksouls has a feature called New Game +, where it makes the game harder every time you beat it? Not exactly a difficulty slider, but the option for a harder game is there for those who want it.

    Much like WoW. You beat LFR Darksouls and stopped there because you're lazy, and that's fine, but tons of people love doing Normal, Heroic, and Mythic Darksouls. I got to NG+6 last time I played it.

    And M+ is one of the best things ever added to this game. Single difficulty dungeons are used for like 1-2 weeks tops then they're abandon on all but fresh alts. M+ makes them all a challenge for any level.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2020-01-16 at 02:26 AM.

  8. #48
    Mechagnome Mask's Avatar
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    I actually agree with the original poster. Seeing challenges that are unattainable at first is motivating to get better so you can overcome them. When everything can just be scaled down to the easiest difficulty it kills my motivation to care about the content. And I haven't particularly cared about the content in a long long time now because of all the scaling.

    So why have you been playing since wotlk?

    Its been 13 years since that was added, why are you still around, why has it taken you till just now, and why do you think they will suddenly change their mind?
    Because I also am able to find fun things about the game BESIDES dungeons and raiding. I collect transmog, pets, mounts, play through all the new zones and quests, chat with friends. All of that is still fun. It is just enough to keep me playing.

    2004-2009 I was in a server first raiding guild. I raided 18 hours a week every week. Rarely took a day off. Have the achievements to prove it. I loved raiding. I loved the challenge and camaraderie. But once scaling came it felt like everything changed. The motivation to work towards challenges was gone... Why bother when you can just lower the difficulty. Pressing on wasn't fun anymore.
    Last edited by Mask; 2020-01-16 at 02:41 AM.

  9. #49
    These whine threads are getting more stupid, honestly.

    And funny thing is that OP doesn't even mean what he wrote. He just burned out of wow and thinks that "going back in time" will somehow bring back his youth and memories back.

  10. #50
    Unsure if it was mentioned prior to this post but, M+ is highly profitable which is exactly what Blizzard is going for right now (no cheap shots, they're a business, they do what the shareholders and investors want them to do within reason). There's also the eSport aspect which is another earner on top of the high replay-ability on live servers resulting in more consistent subscriptions. I've been toying with a similar system for raids in my head and while I absolutely despise the idea, I can see Blizzard doing something like that in the future.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mask View Post
    I actually agree with the original poster. Seeing challenges that are unattainable at first is motivating to get better so you can overcome them. When everything can just be scaled down to the easiest difficulty it kills my motivation to care about the content. And I haven't particularly cared about the content in a long long time now because of all the scaling.
    Except that that is 100% a YOU problem and not a Content problem. Same with the OP's leading post: It's entirely about him, in a game played by MILLIONS of people.

    If you chose to look at a system with 5 different difficulty options, and stop playing / progressing because you picked the lowest one an beat it, that is ENTIRELY on you. It does not magically remove the rest of the difficulty options or the challenge they provide.

    And since this is an MMO game, played by millions of people, having a single, fixed, difficulty curve is basically guaranteed to lock a fair chunk of the players entirely out of content. There is absolutely nothing wrong with allowing players to see ALL of the content while simultaneously providing multiple tiers of difficulty so people who want a challenge can get it (and maybe earn some slightly better rewards than the people who chose the lower difficulty in the process).

    Having a fixed difficulty curve makes no sense. It would be like having a rule in chess where you are not allowed to use specific pieces move sets unless you can rank at a specific level in tournaments. Want your queen to be able to move diagonally as well a horizontally? Sorry, only people who have won a national level tournament can do that.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    No. I do LFR because that is the path of least resistance to beat all the content. I would love it if there was only 1 difficulty that forced me to raid in a serious guild and the raids were heroic/mythic level difficulty.

    I don't want to, however, play mythic raids, when I can just beat it all in LFR.

    And Blizzard seem to think just because LFR is "popular" it's fun? It's not. It's just not hard at all and when you finally beat LFR it just feels like "finally". No excitement what so ever.
    Are you serious?

    You don't find it fun, but you do it because Blizzard isn't forcing you to do more fun content? You're either too lazy or too stupid to decide to do that content yourself without Blizzard literally forcing you to do it?

    Honestly sounds like maybe WoW isn't a good game for you, I think you're better off with single player games that tell you exactly where to go to experience the story.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire n7stormreaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post

    EDIT:
    Look at games like Dark Souls, being much more enjoyable exactly BECAUSE they don't have a difficulty slider.
    Couldn't ask for a worse comparison here, as in Dark Souls you go through your character's entire development by killing each boss once.
    Space magic.

  14. #54
    Should have been:

    "TLR I don't mythic raid so I have no idea what I'm talking about"

    difficulties exist so people can play at the level they want. There is a giant canyon between the difficulty level of a heroic raid to mythic, and an even bigger canyon between the players that participate in it. If we just had one difficulty level today, the player base would be a fraction of what it is today.

  15. #55
    It's definitely bad design to rely so heavily on repeated content/grinds (IMO, anyways), but it's core MMO design. It's core hook is to try and get people doing something over and over so they pay a monthly fee longer, and MMO designers want to put the sort of content out that requires as little effort as possible to design for the maximum return on profit.

    To people who want to finish things, and or don't want to buy into tactics meant to put you on timesink treadmills, MMOs probably aren't the best genre for you. They're designed to get you to keep paying a monthly fee, and have fun second. (Usually, chasing after the promise of future fun if you keep playing!)

    There's NOTHING WRONG with having this mindset. You can even blame Blizzard for catering to wildly different markets that don't gel with one another and setting up weird expectations with certain parts of it playerbases over the years. Just don't be a jerk about it, and realize it's never going to change in a pay-to-play game.

    Personally, I think scaling is awesome. I think an overuse of repeated content isn't.
    Last edited by Otimus; 2020-01-16 at 04:56 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Notshauna View Post
    That's a shame because the scaling difficulties has allowed for a massive improvement in pretty much every aspect of raiding. The vast majority of players have a difficulty mode that is sufficiently challenging without being too difficult to complete. To me the only sore spot in the system is that the gap between Heroic and Mythic is too large, where an additional difficulty mode would better meet the needs of most serious raiders.
    To me that's the huge issue. For most of us who've been playing for a while, heroic is easy. It takes like 3 weeks to outgear it and the whole thing is done within a month. But the next level up, mythic, which seems to be the difficulty driving most design decisions, is expressly designed for a very small slice of the populace.

    If gear acquisition were a LOT slower and heroic was tuned more around gear checks and less around mechanics, the whole thing would be a lot more fun. But my impression is it's mostly thought of as a speed bump for mythic guilds to blow through in week one of raid release, so there's not a whole lot of thought put into what would work best for that community (which is far, far larger than the mythic one).
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  17. #57
    Pit Lord msdos's Avatar
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    Retail has so much sh going on currently. I actually have to watch guides now on content patches, otherwise I get overwhelmed and log off. Thank god for Dratnos and crew.

    M+ reminds me of a straight up math problem and Method Dungeon Tools is the graph for your math.
    "How much sum of this mob will add to the percent and how much of this death subtracts from the timer and how much time gained if this is skipped, divided by doing this oh and subtract that if we take this route oh and this guy's HP is multiplied oh and this guy's nuke is scaled 1000000 billion% and how much time do we gain if we lust on this pull and ummmmm"
    Yeah bro, that's really fun, gee, no wonder only the brightest and sharpest most dedicated mathematicians playing the most meta comp are able to push 20 keys lmao. You basically have to be the prodigy of Ion Hazzikostas to be a part of the MDI.

    Also retail is becoming something that forces you to exclusively play it otherwise you fall behind in it or in some aspect of it. Like if you're not getting the chest each week you're falling behind, not clearing the lockout, not doing the vision thingies, failing the vision, not rep grinding so you never get anything, not gathering AP so you're gimp, etc, etc.
    I got other games and other shit to do, I'm sorry. They need to dial down the involvement. Pruning classes and upping mechanics and APM and involvement was a stupid move. Shoulda kept it the opposite, which was keep classes involved, then you can have more diverse raid encounters that are more than just enrage soak burn downs with thousands of adds and a lieutenant appearing intermittently (this is like every fight now).
    I really miss fights like Chess in Kara or Eonar from Antorus. They insist every fight is just a boss and adds punishing you the entire time.

  18. #58
    Is this another of those posts where the OP tries to make a point to hide the fact that mythic is too much for him so he wants the game dumbed down even more?

  19. #59
    High Overlord Aleloron's Avatar
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    LFR is a curse upon Humanity. I never got my Deathwing Mount because every single group I got placed in wiped to the Lich King. Every. Single. One. Over and over and over again. So I gave up.

    Such is life, I suppose. If you don’t enjoy something then just don’t do it. Go collect mounts or pets or level an Alt. /shrug
    Don’t ask me to explain my idiocy; I’m in my early 40’s and still don’t understand it myself.

  20. #60
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    So ignoring every thing else you do know dark souls has scaling difficulty right? After you beat the game you unlock new game plus which adds new enemies boss ability’s and scales every thing up just like going from heroic to mythic.

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