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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I see this sentiment echoed a lot. I have yet to see someone who is able to explain why.

    In the big picture, so what if some LFR heroes have the odd piece of mythic quality raid gear here and there? It's not even close to putting them on a par with even normal mode raiders, let alone mythic raiders.

    The idea that somehow TF now gives LFR the same gear as mythic raids is just a massively distorted (and frankly dishonest) misrepresentation of what TF does and thus completely invalidates your complaint.
    The reason why is simple. They want to shove their epeen down your throat and have you thank them for it because you were blessed enough to be able to see their perfect gear.

    It's nothing short of ego.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    If someone is going to feel bad because they didn't get the BiS TF when an item dropped, I am sorry to have to inform them that no system anyone can invent will make them feel good. So, sure, by all means celebrate the end of TF. But don't be surprised when you're still moaning about RNG and gear 6 months later.
    Let me introduce you to Cataclysm/t14. Or really just how loot worked pre-Legion(or pre-t15 if counting the MoP/WoD iteration of RNGforging)
    Last edited by Tradu; 2020-01-16 at 07:53 AM.
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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Are you joking? Such system existed for YEARS before titanforging.
    Dude, every single gearing system in the history of WoW has had it's detractors. Even you think that in the past there was some perfect system, there was always someone out there who had massive problems with it.

    I totally accept that some people have a big problem with TF, but in spite of reading through hundreds of threads on the topic with thousands of posts criticising the feature, I have yet to see a single argument against the feature that actually makes cogent sense. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes to me. Yes, TF is an unpopular feature, but not a bad one.

    Personally I am sad to see TF go because I think it was a good feature and it's getting the boot for the wrong reasons. This is not a victory of reason and logic, it's a victory for populism, and just on principle that's never a good thing.

    For the people who liked the system, we've lost something. For the detractors, it's cause for celebration...until of course you find your next hobby horse to start whining and complaining about. Which should take about a week or so....

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Dude, every single gearing system in the history of WoW has had it's detractors. Even you think that in the past there was some perfect system, there was always someone out there who had massive problems with it.

    I totally accept that some people have a big problem with TF, but in spite of reading through hundreds of threads on the topic with thousands of posts criticising the feature, I have yet to see a single argument against the feature that actually makes cogent sense. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes to me. Yes, TF is an unpopular feature, but not a bad one.

    Personally I am sad to see TF go because I think it was a good feature and it's getting the boot for the wrong reasons. This is not a victory of reason and logic, it's a victory for populism, and just on principle that's never a good thing.

    For the people who liked the system, we've lost something. For the detractors, it's cause for celebration...until of course you find your next hobby horse to start whining and complaining about. Which should take about a week or so....
    Ah yes, painting anybody who has different views to you as a crybaby.
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  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Which should take about a week or so....
    It started weeks ago, since they decided to replace the system with something even dumber. One step forward, two steps back and shit.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Because it shouldn't feel bad to get a baseline mythic item.

    Titanforging was one of the worst things Blizzard ever did to this game.
    As another mythic raider, not all of us are this entitled to having "special loot". Titanforging was appropriately removed because it was bad for the game, period. Nothing to do with mythic raids.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    It started weeks ago, since they decided to replace the system with something even dumber. One step forward, two steps back and shit.
    Yeah, they completely missed the mark on tuning. Corruption should be minor, less than 5 ilevels worth, seeing as they e repeatedly said ilevel should automatically be an upgrade.
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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Let me introduce you to Cataclysm/t14. Or really just how loot worked pre-Legion(or pre-t15 if counting the MoP/WoD iteration of RNGforging)
    And yet at the time I recall people moaning about how Cataclysm was the worst expansion ever. As I said in my last reply, every single gearing system has had its detractors. Just because you think some previous system was perfect doesn't mean that it wasn't equally criticised as the system you are hating on now.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Yeah, they completely missed the mark on tuning. Corruption should be minor, less than 5 ilevels worth, seeing as they e repeatedly said ilevel should automatically be an upgrade.
    Season 4 havent started yet so it's difficult to judge the system (yet). And it would fucking suck if the affix was only worth 5 ilvls considering its annoying downsides. It shouldnt be infinite stars-good, but not void ritual bad either. Middleground, please.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Dude, you are literally using wrong words, there is no "IN GENERAL", and they DID NOT take a step away from it. It's like completely opposite, they went pants on head retarded with RNG:



    Now here is the part when MATH kicks in:

    3 pieces of titanforged gear from 430 -> 450 could not even begin to hope to get close to how big difference would make 3 corrupted pieces.

    Assuming you do 40k while having 430+ ilvl. each 450 titanforge (+20ilvl) gives you a WHOPPING 0.9% upgrade.
    So instead of doing 40.00k dps you will be doing 40.36k.

    Now a single stack of Infinite stars gives you 3.8k dps which equals ~8.5% dps. Of course, layered after a RNG wall.
    Weakest corruptions are comparable to +20 ilvl titanforge.

    If you multiply your luck to maximum,
    3x +20 ilvl titanforge gave you ~2.7% dps increase
    3x Infinite stars gives you ~26% dps increase
    Are you arguing for Titanforge or against Corruption?

    Personally I would like both systems to be removed. We don't need these RNG procs on our gear. Sockets and Warforge is more than enough.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Ah yes, painting anybody who has different views to you as a crybaby.
    Now you're strawmanning.

    What I am saying is that people who like to whine and complain will continue to be people who like to whine and complain. It has bugger all to do with holding a different view to me.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Season 4 havent started yet so it's difficult to judge the system (yet). And it would fucking suck if the affix was only worth 5 ilvls considering its annoying downsides. It shouldnt be infinite stars-good, but not void ritual bad either. Middleground, please.
    Of course the downsides should be proportional to some extent, but yeah, the main issue is the insane range of power between IS/EV and avoidance based on haste or whatever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And yet at the time I recall people moaning about how Cataclysm was the worst expansion ever. As I said in my last reply, every single gearing system has had its detractors. Just because you think some previous system was perfect doesn't mean that it wasn't equally criticised as the system you are hating on now.
    Yeah, people complained about Cataclysm, but not because of how loot worked. They complained about rehashed content, LFR(which was an abomination in Cata, to be fair), nothing to do outside of raids(as always). And even if they did complain about how loot worked, they hadn't yet experienced the abortion of a system that titanforging was.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2020-01-16 at 08:16 AM.
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I see this sentiment echoed a lot. I have yet to see someone who is able to explain why.

    In the big picture, so what if some LFR heroes have the odd piece of mythic quality raid gear here and there? It's not even close to putting them on a par with even normal mode raiders, let alone mythic raiders.

    The idea that somehow TF now gives LFR the same gear as mythic raids is just a massively distorted (and frankly dishonest) misrepresentation of what TF does and thus completely invalidates your complaint.
    For me it's not about LFR. I couldn't care less about LFR. It's more about Heroic. I hate seeing a Heroic raider with a 445 Titanforged Razor Coral without ever having been even close to kill Mythic Ashvane. Maybe it hurts my ego or whatever, but that doesn't make it less valid. That's my personal opinion. In my eyes there should be a very very clear balance between effort/skill and reward. Killing heroic Ashvane should NEVER be able to give the same reward as killing mythic Ashvane. No RNG should change that.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-01-16 at 08:19 AM.

  14. #194
    With the removal of tier sets, Blizz needed to have something to make mythic raid loot attractive again. Seriously, I was BIS for the tier 3 bosses into Eternal Palace.
    Instead of re-introducing special raid sets, they just removed Tforging, so that mythic once again boasts the iLvL ceiling. I love that. Mythic is once again rewarding.

    Now of course M+ players like OP are whining, because they can't have the shiniest loot in the game anymore. They whined so much that they can now also attain 475 loot in the weekly chest for a +15 and rival mythic once again. So I guess they should be happy about that.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    I don't understand the hate titanforging got. It's so boring going into a m+ or raid knowing it's impossible now to get an upgrade. It's gonna be so lame getting the same item level every run and you gear out your character in a few nights of m+.

    Also this means the ONLY way to get a decent weapon is mythic raid. Which means I have to commit to the time schedule of others which is an out dated practise in 2020. I'm not 14 anymore who can stay up all night.

    Yea yea this forum will be full of "git good" "join a mythic guild noob" and all that bullshit but I much prefer m+ because you only need 4 more people and can do it whenever which suits me as a full time worker on a weird time zone and your mythic loot still gets the cool xmogs and mounts ffs. Now I have to raid mythic to be competitive in content I wanna do. Lame
    Titanforging was bad, corrupted is even worse.. best was old times fixed item level with fixed gem slots (Wrath of the Lich King). If you need to have best gear, you have to raid, if you are enjoying m+ do only m+ and be ok you will never have best gear.. Mythic raiding is quite easy if you are not totally noob and there is plenty of guilds with 2 nights raiding with CE. I am not 14 anymore, I have wife, job etc.. and I can raid 4 nights/week.

    My hope for Shadowlands is, they will return tu fixed ilvl as earlier.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I hate seeing a Heroic raider with a 445 Titanforged Razor Coral without ever having been even close to kill Mythic Ashvane. Maybe it hurts my ego or whatever, but that doesn't make it less valid. That's my personal opinion.
    Of course it makes it less valid because what you're describing is not a problem with the game, it's entirely a problem with your inability to properly process your emotional response appropriately to the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    In my eyes there should be a very very clear balance between effort/skill and reward. Killing heroic Ashvane should NEVER be able to give the same reward as killing mythic Ashvane. No RNG should change that.
    Firstly, I agree 100% that rewards should be commensurate with the effort/skill involved. People who raid mythic should be rewarded with better gear than people who raid heroic. But TF doesn't change that. The fact that some heroic raiders will have 445 Razor Coral doesn't even come close to equalising the rewards between heroic and mythic raiding.

    This is one of my biggest criticisms of the anti TF argument: It's built on the fallacy of false equivalence - this idea that if it's possible for equally good gear to drop, that this will somehow magically translate into equally geared players. It simply isn't true.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-01-16 at 09:09 AM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Of course it makes less valid because it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with you.



    Firstly, I agree 100% that rewards should be commensurate with the effort/skill involved. People who raid mythic should be rewarded with better gear than people who raid heroic. But TF doesn't change that. The fact that a some heroic raiders will have 445 Razor Coral doesn't even come close to equalising the rewards between heroic and mythic raiding.

    This is one of my biggest criticisms of the anti TF argument: It's built on the fallacy of false equivalence - this idea that if it's possible for equally good gear to drop, that this will somehow magically translate into equally geared players. It simply isn't true.
    It actually does get pretty close between heroic raiders who do their weekly M+ and mythic raiders(who also do their weekly M+), much closer than the 15 ilevel gap there should be thanks to the base ilevel difference (although a decent part if that is thanks to mythic azerite and near-mythic gear from M+ weekly chest). And the reason is that people clear heroic much earlier and get to farm the entire thing, while on mythic a lot of time is spent progressing and getting little to no loot.
    In BoD my shaman was 415 before I did any mythic on it maybe a month before CoS opened, while my priest was maybe 418 from raiding mythic from day 1. All my alts ended BoD around 415-420, most without any mythic raiding, meaning there wasn't room for a 15 ilevel gap from that to mythic raiding characters(because loot capped at 425).
    In Legion, all my characters were 940+ at the end of ToS, with my 2 mythic characters only being 5 ilevels ahead of the heroic characters.
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  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It actually does get pretty close between heroic raiders who do their weekly M+ and mythic raiders(who also do their weekly M+), much closer than the 15 ilevel gap there should be thanks to the base ilevel difference (although a decent part if that is thanks to mythic azerite and near-mythic gear from M+ weekly chest). And the reason is that people clear heroic much earlier and get to farm the entire thing, while on mythic a lot of time is spent progressing and getting little to no loot.
    I am not seeing a problem with TF in what you're describing. You've basically identified why the gap is close and it sounds fair given the kind of gap between the effort and skill involved. If the underlying requirement for how good your gear should be is a function of skill and effort, then a high performing heroic raider, who also maxes out M+ should be a lot closer to a low performing mythic raider than an average heroic raider should be relative to an average mythic raider.

    Take the scenario of an average heroic guild clearing the instance a month before the next raid comes out with a mythic guild progressing at the same rate, and you'll see a decent ilevel gap. As it should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    In BoD my shaman was 415 before I did any mythic on it maybe a month before CoS opened, while my priest was maybe 418 from raiding mythic from day 1. All my alts ended BoD around 415-420, most without any mythic raiding, meaning there wasn't room for a 15 ilevel gap from that to mythic raiding characters(because loot capped at 425).
    In Legion, all my characters were 940+ at the end of ToS, with my 2 mythic characters only being 5 ilevels ahead of the heroic characters.
    I am not very clear on what you're trying to prove here? Snapshotting where your character landed up by the end of the tier isn't illustrative of anything really. Because with the way TF works, if you keep farming for long enough, eventually everyone does land up with the same gear (ie all TF to the maximum level). But it's arbitrary because that will be long after it's actually useful.

    A far more useful comparison would be my guild - average heroic raiding progress - with some members doing a significant amount of M+ to others doing hardly any. We ended BoD with an average ilevel across the guild of 407, with raiders ranging from 402-414. Clearly your anecdote is of a significantly better performing heroic raider, so it makes sense that you would have been closer to mythic raiding gear.

    This just really seems to be a big problem in these discussions. A lot of people will cherry pick data in order to suit their narrative, whereas what you really should be doing is trying to understand what the data actually means, which involves looking at your data in context (and a desire for understanding rather than just trying to prove that you're right).
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-01-16 at 10:41 AM.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I am not seeing a problem with TF in what you're describing. You've basically identified why the gap is close and it sounds fair given the kind of gap between the effort and skill involved. If the underlying requirement for how good your gear should be is a function of skill and effort, then a high performing heroic raider, who also maxes out M+ should be a lot closer to a low performing mythic raider than an average heroic raider should be relative to an average mythic raider.

    Take the scenario of an average heroic guild clearing the instance a month before the next raid comes out with a mythic guild progressing at the same rate, and you'll see a decent ilevel gap. As it should be.




    I am not very clear on what you're trying to prove here? Snapshotting where your character landed up by the end of the tier isn't illustrative of anything really. Because with the way TF works, if you keep farming for long enough, eventually everyone does land up with the same gear (ie all TF to the maximum level). But it's arbitrary because that will be long after it's actually useful.

    A far more useful comparison would be my guild - average heroic raiding progress - with some members doing a significant amount of M+ to others doing hardly any. We ended BoD with an average ilevel across the guild of 407, with raiders ranging from 402-414. Clearly your anecdote is of a significantly better performing heroic raider, so it makes sense that you would have been closer to mythic raiding gear.

    This just really seems to be a big problem in these discussions. A lot of people will cherry pick data in order to suit their narrative, whereas what you really should be doing is trying to understand what the data actually means, which involves looking at your data in context (and a desire for understanding rather than just trying to prove that you're right).
    Titanforging rewards quantity of loot too highly, although corruption is not much better in that regard. Lower difficulties give a higher quantity of loot if you put in the same skill/effort, because you spend less time clearing the content.
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  20. #200
    I mean this season if you do m+15s you'll be basically the same ilvl as mythic raiders, and consider m+15s are way easier than mythic that already seems pretty broken.

    It might take a few more weeks, but doing one m+15 a week will get you just as geared as mythic raiders in a significantly shorter play time. Not to mention m+ has already been the best (only) way to gear up characters this entire expansion. And Titanforging was the main problem there, I mean why do mythic raids if you can spam +10s for 455 gear?

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