Page 11 of 22 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
21
... LastLast
  1. #201
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,479
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Titanforging rewards quantity of loot too highly, although corruption is not much better in that regard. Lower difficulties give a higher quantity of loot if you put in the same skill/effort, because you spend less time clearing the content.
    I don't think that's a fair generalisation to make because it relies on the assumption that you aren't successfully defeating mythic bosses. So while it may be true in your case that you've got more mythic quality raid gear from clearing heroic every week than from actual Mythic kills, that is only because you haven't done enough mythic kills. Essentially, time and effort put into failing to get kills doesn't count - it just serves to muddy the actual useful data.

    Also, just to put some real data onto the table here: I have 61 heroic boss kills and only 1 piece of mythic quality TF from raiding - and that is pretty typical of people in our guild.

    A successful mythic raider should likely have just about filled every slot with Mythic gear, some of which would be WF/TF as well.

  2. #202
    Noo titanforge is just shit. WoW never was loot grind game like Diablo. Too much effort to take a loot and 1 week save made titanforged annoyin as hell.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Of course it makes it less valid because what you're describing is not a problem with the game, it's entirely a problem with your inability to properly process your emotional response appropriately to the situation.
    I don't think this is fair for you to say. This is not some weird emotional response. Of course you measure your own achievements in relation to other peoples achievements. That's completely normal. If you put in more effort you also want to get a better reward.

    It's not unreasonable to expect:

    mythic gear > heroic gear (Always with no exceptions)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Firstly, I agree 100% that rewards should be commensurate with the effort/skill involved. People who raid mythic should be rewarded with better gear than people who raid heroic. But TF doesn't change that. The fact that some heroic raiders will have 445 Razor Coral doesn't even come close to equalising the rewards between heroic and mythic raiding.

    This is one of my biggest criticisms of the anti TF argument: It's built on the fallacy of false equivalence - this idea that if it's possible for equally good gear to drop, that this will somehow magically translate into equally geared players. It simply isn't true.
    I agree when it comes to LFR and normal.

    But it is very common to see heroic raiders that also do +10 keys to have an average ilvl of 445+ and this is due to titanforging in combination with the titan residuum vendor. And this is what I think is wrong. Heroic raids and +10 keys are very easy content. You should not be able to get an average ilvl of 445 by only doing that (before 8.3 of course).

    I love that this changes in 8.3. It's completely fair that Blizzard demand you to complete at least a +15 key (which is also pretty easy) to get 475 ilvl gear from the weekly chest. +10 keys are way too easy to reward that quality of gear.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-01-16 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #204
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    1,041
    I’m happy to see titanforging gone, but this new system is worse purely because of the RNG. Did someone mention a frying pan and fire?

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I don't think that's a fair generalisation to make because it relies on the assumption that you aren't successfully defeating mythic bosses. So while it may be true in your case that you've got more mythic quality raid gear from clearing heroic every week than from actual Mythic kills, that is only because you haven't done enough mythic kills. Essentially, time and effort put into failing to get kills doesn't count - it just serves to muddy the actual useful data.

    Also, just to put some real data onto the table here: I have 61 heroic boss kills and only 1 piece of mythic quality TF from raiding - and that is pretty typical of people in our guild.

    A successful mythic raider should likely have just about filled every slot with Mythic gear, some of which would be WF/TF as well.
    That's the problem, in reality there needs to be some compensation for the higher amount of time spent progressing.
    Monkashuffle
    <Arctic Avengers>
    Ravencrest-EU

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Because the trinkets are different. Using balefire branch as an example - it blew every raid trinket out of the water for my class for all of uldir and most of BOD.

    I had to not only hope I got that trinket out of the box on tuesday, but also spam waycrest manor and hope for a titanforged version.

    I did that in uldir, and then had to do it again in BOD. In EP, I just do my weekly mythic clear and get the trinket I want. I don't have to go out of my way to farm a key I do not want to do.

    I do not have to play the lottery on Tuesday.
    that was because caster trinkets in uldir sucked ass, they were litteraly hot garbagr

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by iosdeveloper View Post
    you serious bro?
    titanforging lost them a lot of subs
    they didnt quit because of TF, they were looking for a reason to quit

  7. #207
    No thank you, bye bye TF

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Anyone able to look at the big picture, with strong critical thinking and analytical skills, who isn't overly susceptible to emotional reactions. Sadly such people are in short supply it would seem.

    Honestly, getting upset that someone else got a better reward than you just smacks of immaturity and entitlement. Removing TF isn't going to fix the problem, because the problem is with the attitude that certain players choose to adopt. People have whined and moaned about every reward system in this game since time immemorial, and they will continue to do so no matter how many times Blizzard change their systems in a futile attempt to make these same people happy.

    The fact of the matter is that the complaint that some people get better rewarded for doing the same content is basically nonsense. Sure, when it comes to individual items, but not when you look at it holistically. Over any reasonable period of time, "luck" tends to even out. The problem with players who tend to base their assessments on snapshots of gear acquisition is that they tend to focus on the individual events where they feel hard done by, but then forget about the events where they did fine. In the end you can have 2 players with an identical ilevel and equal performance, both of whom have deluded themselves into believing that the other was unfairly advantaged by RNG because one of them has a TF+Socketed BiS Weapon and the other has a TF+Socketed BiS trinket.

    Seriously, if another person in my guild gets a great raid drop what possible, rational reason do I have to feel bad? No offence, but it's a completely stupid attitude to take to get upset about it. I mean, sure, it would be nice for me to get that item, but that shouldn't interfere with me being able to be happy for my friend. Furthermore, as a raid team we win or fail together. Another dps getting a BiS trinket still puts me one step closer to defeating the next boss.

    If someone is going to feel bad because they didn't get the BiS TF when an item dropped, I am sorry to have to inform them that no system anyone can invent will make them feel good. So, sure, by all means celebrate the end of TF. But don't be surprised when you're still moaning about RNG and gear 6 months later.
    Or we could just have “set” drops again.
    If I put time and effort into something, I should be able to confidently expect the stated reward.
    But I guess that’s immature to hope for.

  9. #209
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    290
    I've never seen a more stark example of why the devs don't listen to the playerbase anymore. It is actually, legitimately hard to believe that sane people would protest the removal of titanforging. Then again, no change in the history of WoW has ever garnered unanimous praise.
    "Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by EbonBehelit- View Post
    I've never seen a more stark example of why the devs don't listen to the playerbase anymore. It is actually, legitimately hard to believe that sane people would protest the removal of titanforging. Then again, no change in the history of WoW has ever garnered unanimous praise.
    We got something worse instead, propably as a ploy by Hazzikostas so that we will beg for titanforging to come back.

    Who could have guessed that Blizz devs are petty children.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I see this sentiment echoed a lot. I have yet to see someone who is able to explain why.
    You should be rewarded by the amount of effort you put in, not by chance or luck.

  12. #212
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,479
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    You should be rewarded by the amount of effort you put in, not by chance or luck.
    If you believe that the TF system rewards luck, that simply means you don't understand statistics.

    It seems that a lot of people place far too much stock in the importance of individual pieces of loot. What actually matters is how your gear translates into performance, and that is a function of your gear as a whole. To that end you need to look at the bigger picture. The gear you get over the period of a month matters much, much more than whether you got lucky with a TF roll.

    The luck factor introduces a bit of noise into the process, but at the end of the day it's consistency and effort over a long period of time which really determines how much you're rewarded.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Are you arguing for Titanforge or against Corruption?

    Personally I would like both systems to be removed. We don't need these RNG procs on our gear. Sockets and Warforge is more than enough.
    Corruption is garbage, even if they nerf infinite stars. It will be worth more than +40ilvl upgrade anyways.
    Titanforging was actually capped at +25 for heroic/m+ and +10 for mythic raids.
    Corruption has no such cap as it simply adds tons of damage.

    And it is BECAUSE people whined about TF, which, in your wildest dreams could give you +1.2% upgrade.
    It was OK system and for casuals 1000x better than corruption because it was simpler.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    For me it's not about LFR. I couldn't care less about LFR. It's more about Heroic. I hate seeing a Heroic raider with a 445 Titanforged Razor Coral without ever having been even close to kill Mythic Ashvane. Maybe it hurts my ego or whatever, but that doesn't make it less valid. That's my personal opinion. In my eyes there should be a very very clear balance between effort/skill and reward. Killing heroic Ashvane should NEVER be able to give the same reward as killing mythic Ashvane. No RNG should change that.
    Then its a personal problem and jealousy. Honestly we need less people like you to make game less toxic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    That's the problem, in reality there needs to be some compensation for the higher amount of time spent progressing.
    Higher amount? No lol, for heroic raiders and m+ players they had to spend MUCH more time to get to the same ilvl as mythic raider. Remember, statistics and math. You are not gettting titanforges left and right, and you can't pick the slot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    We got something worse instead, propably as a ploy by Hazzikostas so that we will beg for titanforging to come back.

    Who could have guessed that Blizz devs are petty children.
    I did guess it. TF was Ok system, we are getting something much worse instead. Great job guys, great job.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    You should be rewarded by the amount of effort you put in, not by chance or luck.
    And they do. Do the actual math.

  14. #214
    Immortal
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    7,479
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    That's the problem, in reality there needs to be some compensation for the higher amount of time spent progressing.
    By my estimation, a mythic raiding guild might need to spend twice as much time in a week to progress at the same rate through mythic as a heroic guild progresses through heroic. The value of mythic raiding gear is easily compensation enough.

    If it's taking you the same amount of effort to get 1 piece of mythic raid loot as it's taking me to get 60 heroic kills, the problem isn't with TF, it's with the fact that you're not good enough to defeat mythic bosses.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Preferred the days of farming for BiS and not farming 5 types of the same item... If there's anything Classic - Cata got right was the way gear worked. Nothing more boring than farming for the same item again and again just so you can get a higher level item of that same item you already have... It makes the effort feel cheap and it doesn't feel satisfying in the least.

    I like the idea of having to find where the best gear is go there collect and feel like I completed something by having it all. Not be giving more RNG on top of RNG and be constantly farming until I die of an anxiety attack. It just makes getting that gear seem mundane and pointless.
    Pretty much this. The one thing that kept me going at level 60 in Classic for a few weeks was having a list of BiS items I could finish. Then I quit anyway because having items means nothing unless they're means to an end and there are no ends worth pursuing in Classic and the gameplay is trash. If they just inserted the gearing system from Classic (with some adjustments) into modern WoW, it would be so great.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    I don't understand the hate titanforging got. It's so boring going into a m+ or raid knowing it's impossible now to get an upgrade. It's gonna be so lame getting the same item level every run and you gear out your character in a few nights of m+.

    Also this means the ONLY way to get a decent weapon is mythic raid. Which means I have to commit to the time schedule of others which is an out dated practise in 2020. I'm not 14 anymore who can stay up all night.

    Yea yea this forum will be full of "git good" "join a mythic guild noob" and all that bullshit but I much prefer m+ because you only need 4 more people and can do it whenever which suits me as a full time worker on a weird time zone and your mythic loot still gets the cool xmogs and mounts ffs. Now I have to raid mythic to be competitive in content I wanna do. Lame
    Because people have that stupid tryhard mentality. While normal people would just login to play the game and run instances for fun and enjoy random rewards for playing the content, the tryhards can't tolerate that shit. In their head there must be a list of BIS and a method to farm them and to get them before anyone else. The game sucks eversince blizzard tried to make these tryhards happy.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    By my estimation, a mythic raiding guild might need to spend twice as much time in a week to progress at the same rate through mythic as a heroic guild progresses through heroic. The value of mythic raiding gear is easily compensation enough.

    If it's taking you the same amount of effort to get 1 piece of mythic raid loot as it's taking me to get 60 heroic kills, the problem isn't with TF, it's with the fact that you're not good enough to defeat mythic bosses.
    You're arguing based on the assumption that gear is a reward. Many players like myself and pretty much everyone I know do not think of gear as a reward in any way. Gear is only a tool you need in order to get actual rewards.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Corruption is garbage, even if they nerf infinite stars. It will be worth more than +40ilvl upgrade anyways.
    Titanforging was actually capped at +25 for heroic/m+ and +10 for mythic raids.
    Corruption has no such cap as it simply adds tons of damage.

    And it is BECAUSE people whined about TF, which, in your wildest dreams could give you +1.2% upgrade.
    It was OK system and for casuals 1000x better than corruption because it was simpler.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Then its a personal problem and jealousy. Honestly we need less people like you to make game less toxic.
    I'm not saying corruption is good but Titanforging sucked. You should just get the reward fitting for the level of content you do. End of story.

    It's not jealousy when I have the same or better items than them. Why would I be jealous on someone who got less than me. But I want a fair balance between effort/skill and reward. Heroic raids are piss easy and should not give good gear. End of story.

    Fortunately Blizzard agree with people like me and have realized that casuals like you just want to feel "special" without having to put in any effort. You want to feel equal to a mythic raider when the reality is that you are not. You should not have the same gear as a mythic raider and Blizzard should not baby you by giving you some fake sensation that you are better than you are. You're a casual pleb that does heroic raiding and will never be better than that. You deserve the shit gear you get. Be happy with what you get or put in more effort. Drop the loser mentality.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-01-16 at 02:31 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    Because people have that stupid tryhard mentality. While normal people would just login to play the game and run instances for fun and enjoy random rewards for playing the content, the tryhards can't tolerate that shit. In their head there must be a list of BIS and a method to farm them and to get them before anyone else. The game sucks eversince blizzard tried to make these tryhards happy.
    You mean since launch? Because Blizz always tried to make these "tryhards" happy. Game started to suck once they started dogpiling RNG upon RNG.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    By my estimation, a mythic raiding guild might need to spend twice as much time in a week to progress at the same rate through mythic as a heroic guild progresses through heroic. The value of mythic raiding gear is easily compensation enough.

    If it's taking you the same amount of effort to get 1 piece of mythic raid loot as it's taking me to get 60 heroic kills, the problem isn't with TF, it's with the fact that you're not good enough to defeat mythic bosses.
    Heroic raiders should not get good gear because they are not doing hard content. Be happy with your mediocre gear, because that is what heroic raiders are.. mediocre. Titanforging is gone and let's be happy about that.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •