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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I don't think that's a fair generalisation to make because it relies on the assumption that you aren't successfully defeating mythic bosses. So while it may be true in your case that you've got more mythic quality raid gear from clearing heroic every week than from actual Mythic kills, that is only because you haven't done enough mythic kills. Essentially, time and effort put into failing to get kills doesn't count - it just serves to muddy the actual useful data.

    Also, just to put some real data onto the table here: I have 61 heroic boss kills and only 1 piece of mythic quality TF from raiding - and that is pretty typical of people in our guild.

    A successful mythic raider should likely have just about filled every slot with Mythic gear, some of which would be WF/TF as well.
    That's the problem, in reality there needs to be some compensation for the higher amount of time spent progressing.
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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    Because the trinkets are different. Using balefire branch as an example - it blew every raid trinket out of the water for my class for all of uldir and most of BOD.

    I had to not only hope I got that trinket out of the box on tuesday, but also spam waycrest manor and hope for a titanforged version.

    I did that in uldir, and then had to do it again in BOD. In EP, I just do my weekly mythic clear and get the trinket I want. I don't have to go out of my way to farm a key I do not want to do.

    I do not have to play the lottery on Tuesday.
    that was because caster trinkets in uldir sucked ass, they were litteraly hot garbagr

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    Quote Originally Posted by iosdeveloper View Post
    you serious bro?
    titanforging lost them a lot of subs
    they didnt quit because of TF, they were looking for a reason to quit

  3. #203
    No thank you, bye bye TF

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Anyone able to look at the big picture, with strong critical thinking and analytical skills, who isn't overly susceptible to emotional reactions. Sadly such people are in short supply it would seem.

    Honestly, getting upset that someone else got a better reward than you just smacks of immaturity and entitlement. Removing TF isn't going to fix the problem, because the problem is with the attitude that certain players choose to adopt. People have whined and moaned about every reward system in this game since time immemorial, and they will continue to do so no matter how many times Blizzard change their systems in a futile attempt to make these same people happy.

    The fact of the matter is that the complaint that some people get better rewarded for doing the same content is basically nonsense. Sure, when it comes to individual items, but not when you look at it holistically. Over any reasonable period of time, "luck" tends to even out. The problem with players who tend to base their assessments on snapshots of gear acquisition is that they tend to focus on the individual events where they feel hard done by, but then forget about the events where they did fine. In the end you can have 2 players with an identical ilevel and equal performance, both of whom have deluded themselves into believing that the other was unfairly advantaged by RNG because one of them has a TF+Socketed BiS Weapon and the other has a TF+Socketed BiS trinket.

    Seriously, if another person in my guild gets a great raid drop what possible, rational reason do I have to feel bad? No offence, but it's a completely stupid attitude to take to get upset about it. I mean, sure, it would be nice for me to get that item, but that shouldn't interfere with me being able to be happy for my friend. Furthermore, as a raid team we win or fail together. Another dps getting a BiS trinket still puts me one step closer to defeating the next boss.

    If someone is going to feel bad because they didn't get the BiS TF when an item dropped, I am sorry to have to inform them that no system anyone can invent will make them feel good. So, sure, by all means celebrate the end of TF. But don't be surprised when you're still moaning about RNG and gear 6 months later.
    Or we could just have “set” drops again.
    If I put time and effort into something, I should be able to confidently expect the stated reward.
    But I guess that’s immature to hope for.

  5. #205
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    I've never seen a more stark example of why the devs don't listen to the playerbase anymore. It is actually, legitimately hard to believe that sane people would protest the removal of titanforging. Then again, no change in the history of WoW has ever garnered unanimous praise.
    "Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by EbonBehelit- View Post
    I've never seen a more stark example of why the devs don't listen to the playerbase anymore. It is actually, legitimately hard to believe that sane people would protest the removal of titanforging. Then again, no change in the history of WoW has ever garnered unanimous praise.
    We got something worse instead, propably as a ploy by Hazzikostas so that we will beg for titanforging to come back.

    Who could have guessed that Blizz devs are petty children.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I see this sentiment echoed a lot. I have yet to see someone who is able to explain why.
    You should be rewarded by the amount of effort you put in, not by chance or luck.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    You should be rewarded by the amount of effort you put in, not by chance or luck.
    If you believe that the TF system rewards luck, that simply means you don't understand statistics.

    It seems that a lot of people place far too much stock in the importance of individual pieces of loot. What actually matters is how your gear translates into performance, and that is a function of your gear as a whole. To that end you need to look at the bigger picture. The gear you get over the period of a month matters much, much more than whether you got lucky with a TF roll.

    The luck factor introduces a bit of noise into the process, but at the end of the day it's consistency and effort over a long period of time which really determines how much you're rewarded.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Are you arguing for Titanforge or against Corruption?

    Personally I would like both systems to be removed. We don't need these RNG procs on our gear. Sockets and Warforge is more than enough.
    Corruption is garbage, even if they nerf infinite stars. It will be worth more than +40ilvl upgrade anyways.
    Titanforging was actually capped at +25 for heroic/m+ and +10 for mythic raids.
    Corruption has no such cap as it simply adds tons of damage.

    And it is BECAUSE people whined about TF, which, in your wildest dreams could give you +1.2% upgrade.
    It was OK system and for casuals 1000x better than corruption because it was simpler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    For me it's not about LFR. I couldn't care less about LFR. It's more about Heroic. I hate seeing a Heroic raider with a 445 Titanforged Razor Coral without ever having been even close to kill Mythic Ashvane. Maybe it hurts my ego or whatever, but that doesn't make it less valid. That's my personal opinion. In my eyes there should be a very very clear balance between effort/skill and reward. Killing heroic Ashvane should NEVER be able to give the same reward as killing mythic Ashvane. No RNG should change that.
    Then its a personal problem and jealousy. Honestly we need less people like you to make game less toxic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    That's the problem, in reality there needs to be some compensation for the higher amount of time spent progressing.
    Higher amount? No lol, for heroic raiders and m+ players they had to spend MUCH more time to get to the same ilvl as mythic raider. Remember, statistics and math. You are not gettting titanforges left and right, and you can't pick the slot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    We got something worse instead, propably as a ploy by Hazzikostas so that we will beg for titanforging to come back.

    Who could have guessed that Blizz devs are petty children.
    I did guess it. TF was Ok system, we are getting something much worse instead. Great job guys, great job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    You should be rewarded by the amount of effort you put in, not by chance or luck.
    And they do. Do the actual math.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    That's the problem, in reality there needs to be some compensation for the higher amount of time spent progressing.
    By my estimation, a mythic raiding guild might need to spend twice as much time in a week to progress at the same rate through mythic as a heroic guild progresses through heroic. The value of mythic raiding gear is easily compensation enough.

    If it's taking you the same amount of effort to get 1 piece of mythic raid loot as it's taking me to get 60 heroic kills, the problem isn't with TF, it's with the fact that you're not good enough to defeat mythic bosses.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Preferred the days of farming for BiS and not farming 5 types of the same item... If there's anything Classic - Cata got right was the way gear worked. Nothing more boring than farming for the same item again and again just so you can get a higher level item of that same item you already have... It makes the effort feel cheap and it doesn't feel satisfying in the least.

    I like the idea of having to find where the best gear is go there collect and feel like I completed something by having it all. Not be giving more RNG on top of RNG and be constantly farming until I die of an anxiety attack. It just makes getting that gear seem mundane and pointless.
    Pretty much this. The one thing that kept me going at level 60 in Classic for a few weeks was having a list of BiS items I could finish. Then I quit anyway because having items means nothing unless they're means to an end and there are no ends worth pursuing in Classic and the gameplay is trash. If they just inserted the gearing system from Classic (with some adjustments) into modern WoW, it would be so great.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    I don't understand the hate titanforging got. It's so boring going into a m+ or raid knowing it's impossible now to get an upgrade. It's gonna be so lame getting the same item level every run and you gear out your character in a few nights of m+.

    Also this means the ONLY way to get a decent weapon is mythic raid. Which means I have to commit to the time schedule of others which is an out dated practise in 2020. I'm not 14 anymore who can stay up all night.

    Yea yea this forum will be full of "git good" "join a mythic guild noob" and all that bullshit but I much prefer m+ because you only need 4 more people and can do it whenever which suits me as a full time worker on a weird time zone and your mythic loot still gets the cool xmogs and mounts ffs. Now I have to raid mythic to be competitive in content I wanna do. Lame
    Because people have that stupid tryhard mentality. While normal people would just login to play the game and run instances for fun and enjoy random rewards for playing the content, the tryhards can't tolerate that shit. In their head there must be a list of BIS and a method to farm them and to get them before anyone else. The game sucks eversince blizzard tried to make these tryhards happy.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    By my estimation, a mythic raiding guild might need to spend twice as much time in a week to progress at the same rate through mythic as a heroic guild progresses through heroic. The value of mythic raiding gear is easily compensation enough.

    If it's taking you the same amount of effort to get 1 piece of mythic raid loot as it's taking me to get 60 heroic kills, the problem isn't with TF, it's with the fact that you're not good enough to defeat mythic bosses.
    You're arguing based on the assumption that gear is a reward. Many players like myself and pretty much everyone I know do not think of gear as a reward in any way. Gear is only a tool you need in order to get actual rewards.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Corruption is garbage, even if they nerf infinite stars. It will be worth more than +40ilvl upgrade anyways.
    Titanforging was actually capped at +25 for heroic/m+ and +10 for mythic raids.
    Corruption has no such cap as it simply adds tons of damage.

    And it is BECAUSE people whined about TF, which, in your wildest dreams could give you +1.2% upgrade.
    It was OK system and for casuals 1000x better than corruption because it was simpler.

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    Then its a personal problem and jealousy. Honestly we need less people like you to make game less toxic.
    I'm not saying corruption is good but Titanforging sucked. You should just get the reward fitting for the level of content you do. End of story.

    It's not jealousy when I have the same or better items than them. Why would I be jealous on someone who got less than me. But I want a fair balance between effort/skill and reward. Heroic raids are piss easy and should not give good gear. End of story.

    Fortunately Blizzard agree with people like me and have realized that casuals like you just want to feel "special" without having to put in any effort. You want to feel equal to a mythic raider when the reality is that you are not. You should not have the same gear as a mythic raider and Blizzard should not baby you by giving you some fake sensation that you are better than you are. You're a casual pleb that does heroic raiding and will never be better than that. You deserve the shit gear you get. Be happy with what you get or put in more effort. Drop the loser mentality.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-01-16 at 02:31 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    Because people have that stupid tryhard mentality. While normal people would just login to play the game and run instances for fun and enjoy random rewards for playing the content, the tryhards can't tolerate that shit. In their head there must be a list of BIS and a method to farm them and to get them before anyone else. The game sucks eversince blizzard tried to make these tryhards happy.
    You mean since launch? Because Blizz always tried to make these "tryhards" happy. Game started to suck once they started dogpiling RNG upon RNG.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    By my estimation, a mythic raiding guild might need to spend twice as much time in a week to progress at the same rate through mythic as a heroic guild progresses through heroic. The value of mythic raiding gear is easily compensation enough.

    If it's taking you the same amount of effort to get 1 piece of mythic raid loot as it's taking me to get 60 heroic kills, the problem isn't with TF, it's with the fact that you're not good enough to defeat mythic bosses.
    Heroic raiders should not get good gear because they are not doing hard content. Be happy with your mediocre gear, because that is what heroic raiders are.. mediocre. Titanforging is gone and let's be happy about that.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    I don't understand the hate titanforging got. It's so boring going into a m+ or raid knowing it's impossible now to get an upgrade. It's gonna be so lame getting the same item level every run and you gear out your character in a few nights of m+.

    Also this means the ONLY way to get a decent weapon is mythic raid. Which means I have to commit to the time schedule of others which is an out dated practise in 2020. I'm not 14 anymore who can stay up all night.

    Yea yea this forum will be full of "git good" "join a mythic guild noob" and all that bullshit but I much prefer m+ because you only need 4 more people and can do it whenever which suits me as a full time worker on a weird time zone and your mythic loot still gets the cool xmogs and mounts ffs. Now I have to raid mythic to be competitive in content I wanna do. Lame
    Well Raiders have to do Mythic+ to stay competetiv. Raiding is the backbone of MMORPGs. Stop making it worse. And stop wanting to get stuff people worked hard for. If someone killed all mythic bosses he deserves something special like transmogs and a mount. I am not high end. We stopped at council mythic. And i am fine with it. I raid two evening a wekk from 20 to 22:30.... so not that much.

    The only thing i am annoyed by in this regard is, that PvP sets are completly removed after the season, while you can get everything from PvE afterwards.

    On topic of TF: It was horribly annoying. Running the same boss 10000 of time hoping for an upgrade for an item you allready have... Now at least at some point you are done. because corruption resistance is finite. At some point you are done. And this will happen faster than TF maxed out with sockets.

    And the whole "out of date practice"... what? Why? It is an MMORPG! That is the core of the game. If you want to play with strangers go to destiny 2 or use PUGs. You won't really get far into Mythic but hero is easy clearable.
    Also you don't NEED the Mythic Wepaons. Are they the best? Propably. But it is the prestige tier. Like Gladiators in PvP

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    You mean since launch? Because Blizz always tried to make these "tryhards" happy. Game started to suck once they started dogpiling RNG upon RNG.
    No. At launch some shity guilds had thunderfury while some hardcore never got the see the bindings drop. Today tryhards would shit their pants if it would happy so instead they are giving everyone a fuckin cloak legendary. RNG is good.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I don't think this is fair for you to say. This is not some weird emotional response. Of course you measure your own achievements in relation to other peoples achievements. That's completely normal. If you put in more effort you also want to get a better reward.
    Yes, measuring your own achievements relative to other people's achievements is normal.
    Yes, expecting to get a better reward if you put more effort in is normal.

    But someone getting a 445 coral from a heroic raid does not mean they got the same reward as you for your raiding achievement, because the reward you get from mythic raiding isn't about 1 item, it's about the collective items you have in total.

    So, no, getting angry because some heroic raider got a 445 trinket from a boss is neither rational nor justified. It's your issue which you need to learn to manage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    mythic gear > heroic gear (Always with no exceptions)
    Nonsense. There is zero problem with the occasional heroic item titanforging to mythic level. The collective gear quality is what matters and the rate of TF drops is easily low enough to ensure that no heroic raider progressing at the same rate (measured week/week) as a mythic raider will come close.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    As a casual, this. Glad to see it go.
    u mean hardcore players love that they have less than 0.001% chance to get best gear (we counting max titanforge, also that was average during Legion, did they buff it in BFA?) from any given boss?
    Seriously titanforge is worst for anyone, as long it exist, u know that item is sh8t since there is still full 25 ilvl higher than it, meaning that in order to feel u got best gear, u need a chance that will take literally years of clearing same raid on same character to get the best gear that is the reason why u raid in first place... even Vanilla u could count average time to get the best gear u want (also probably u'll never get best gear in every slot, since it was 40 men, but at least u can save dkp and count the 10-25% chance drop from boss to know when u'll get that chest u really want)
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Shaman tank. Max level dungeons.

    Yeah I dont believe you. People stopped accepting shaman tanks after uldaman
    also i was pure alliance in vanilla, i don't remember even once blizz gave any hint about shaman tanks, at best they were tanky healers but actual tanks? in mail?
    shamans were off tank due to their survival, but never even once i heard someone talk about a shaman tank, and i started horde at TBC btw
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