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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Another strawman. It's a catch up mechanic for Azerite Power for patches/seasons. Nice try though. We were talking actual skip in quests which are current content while you try to make a point about catch-up mechanics which are here to make so that you don't have to grind AP from 8.0 and up to 8.3. In 8.3 they increased it to 50. In 8.2 it was up to 35. Because they are not letting you get AP to your main's level by default, but to make sure new players and alts isn't more than 1 patch behind and have AK to help them further.
    ...that isn't a strawman. Again, a strawman is, by definition "a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"."

    YOU said, and I quote-
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Should it be so you can skip the assault on alts then get rewarded the AP, gear and essences it gives just because you did it on one char? I don't think that is cool. But to skip story, which I was discussing is something else. Story that gives you no power up is a non-issue. Like introduction scenario to Boralus or Zuldazar for instance. Like listening to Magni for 1 hour when you don't really have to. Which we know by now, is skipable in 8.3 when it's no power for the character attached to it. Which like I said earlier, is the philosophy blizzard has on alts.

    YOU YOURSELF said that Blizzard's philsophy on alts is to be able to "skip story, not power".

    Yet that's literally in stark contrast to their implementation of allowing you to get a free 45 ilvls on your HoA on alts if your main already did the Champions of Azeroth rep.

    And no, it wasn't a catch up mechanic. And yet you're going off on something I'm not even talking about.

    I repeat-
    "a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".".

    You say "they don't allow power skips on alts, only story"
    I point out a situation they allowed power skips on alts by allowing a free 45 ilvl increase on your heart of azeroth if you did it on your main.

    You start talking about Artifact knowledge and heart of azeroth levels instead. Which had nothing to do with what I said.

  2. #182
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Every scenario can be skipped until you obtain your Legendary cloak. If you don't want to invest a little bit of time into the toon then maybe you shouldn't play it alt or not.
    You can't skip Blackwing Descent, any of the assaults or any of the dialogue. You're forced to go through the same boring-ass intro in the same boring ass way for every alt.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You say "they don't allow power skips on alts, only story"
    I point out a situation they allowed power skips on alts by allowing a free 45 ilvl increase on your heart of azeroth if you did it on your main.

    You start talking about Artifact knowledge and heart of azeroth levels instead. Which had nothing to do with what I said.
    What is it you don't get? You don't seem to understand anything I write. What with current content is it that you don't understand? They made scenarios skippable in this patch. They made the Heart of Azeroth ilvl increase in 8.0 as a catch-up mechanic a good few months into BfA. If they did that at start you might have had something. But that had little to do with what I was talking about. And no, blizzard said that in the recent interview about the power/content thing. Read that and you get what I mean. And stop putting words in my mouth.

    "Ion Hazzikostas:
    At its core, when it comes to the question of what is account-bound versus what is character-specific, the line that we’ve always drawn is that access to content is something that we had to unlock across an entire account.

    "But power, and Essences at the end of the day — when you’re getting them by defeating a raid boss, clearing a Mythic+, buying them off a vendor after earning the currency to obtain them — they’re not that different to trinkets, items, or things like the Legendary ring or cloak we’ve had in the past. They’re core player power."

    Scenarios being skippable is one of those things. To get it done quicker on alts, but that you won't get to skip power-ups for alts(Assaults). And in 8.3, access to content is getting characters to assaults, to legendary cloak, to visions.

    Like I said, context. If you don't understand it, don't bother reply. And you don't have to write the definition of a strawman, it's just embarrassing at this point. Reply as you want, but I am done wasting more time.
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    You writing its quite a stretch and me missing the point, then you write the sentence below which was not what I wrote, so I was going to end the discussion because you are not being honest, but then I see you are wrong further down so lets do this.

    I didn't say it's fine it is that long, I said it is fine it is this long to the poster I first quoted because of what he wrote. Context. You can stop putting word in my mouth.


    The bolded part is why I think you are just trying to get a discussion here. Only, as in, at least 80% of all the scenarios in the questline. So stop going around it, you can skip it. I didn't even say every scenario, just that scenarios are skippable. Which they are. So whos strawmanning?

    So why do you put that on me about that time travel when its obviously you whos talking about it? You came here, trying to make a point that scenarios are not skipable, which they are, then go further with the time it takes to go back and forth. Then try to say that I was writing that? I was saying that you take travel time into account, when it was scenarios we talked about. So whos strawmanning?


    When I say easy, I mean fast, don't have to do stuff to power your characters. It is clear that you want to skip all of it, so it's not a strawman. Especially when you try to come here saying that scenarios are not skipable when they are.

    So you are pretending. 2 of 5 can be skipped, sure, just that those 1 of 5 are longer than all the other 4 combined. Excellent point you got there, really showed me. And we were not talking about the Assault, they are not skipable. We know that, we were not talking about that. But scenarios. So again, whos strawmanning?


    Seemed to me that it was since you really had to point that out?

    You tell me. You are lying, so for me it's to make you stop doing that so people get to know that scenarios are skippable. Which they are.


    This has actually happened before 8.3. It's not something new. That you don't know this isn't surprising anymore. Every time you could skip, you got that text up when you talked to them to proceed. It happened in the BfA intro questlines and in Legion as well.

    Gonna stop here and pretend this discussion didn't happen. Always fun when someone try to make a fallacy point then do 3 strawmans to get the point out. It's so rich that you try to put a strawman on me when you did it in the first place.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Easy as in not having to do stuff to power up your character. To skip assault when it gives you gear, essences and rewards. Not talking about if stuff should be account-wide or not, different opinions on that, but that people want to skip content to get power-up for their alts. I disagree with that completely. Doing Horrific Vision on alts for instance, should that be account-wide? Should the legendary cloak be upgraded on alts when you do it on main? Should the essence from the mini vision in the Assault be upgraded for all your alts when you do it on the main?

    Should it be so you can skip the assault on alts then get rewarded the AP, gear and essences it gives just because you did it on one char? I don't think that is cool. But to skip story, which I was discussing is something else. Story that gives you no power up is a non-issue. Like introduction scenario to Boralus or Zuldazar for instance. Like listening to Magni for 1 hour when you don't really have to. Which we know by now, is skipable in 8.3 when it's no power for the character attached to it. Which like I said earlier, is the philosophy blizzard has on alts.
    In my opinion, none of the stuff you mentioned should exist. It’s just a grind and barrier to entry for the good stuff.

    But to take a less extreme position: that content does have some minimal value the first time you do it, so fine, mains grind all day!

    But on alts whatever novelty existed the first time through is gone. Perhaps more importantly, the moment you start on an alt, you realize exactly how much shit you are about to wade through because you’ve already done it all. The last time I leveled an alt in Legion, I powered my way to 110, then I sat there, thought about the ap/legendary/class hall grind ahead of me, said, “ fuck that” and never played the char again.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    What is it you don't get? You don't seem to understand anything I write. What with current content is it that you don't understand? They made scenarios skippable in this patch. They made the Heart of Azeroth ilvl increase in 8.0 as a catch-up mechanic a good few months into BfA. If they did that at start you might have had something. But that had little to do with what I was talking about. And no, blizzard said that in the recent interview about the power/content thing. Read that and you get what I mean. And stop putting words in my mouth.

    "Ion Hazzikostas:
    At its core, when it comes to the question of what is account-bound versus what is character-specific, the line that we’ve always drawn is that access to content is something that we had to unlock across an entire account.

    "But power, and Essences at the end of the day — when you’re getting them by defeating a raid boss, clearing a Mythic+, buying them off a vendor after earning the currency to obtain them — they’re not that different to trinkets, items, or things like the Legendary ring or cloak we’ve had in the past. They’re core player power."

    Scenarios being skippable is one of those things. To get it done quicker on alts, but that you won't get to skip power-ups for alts(Assaults). And in 8.3, access to content is getting characters to assaults, to legendary cloak, to visions.

    Like I said, context. If you don't understand it, don't bother reply. And you don't have to write the definition of a strawman, it's just embarrassing at this point. Reply as you want, but I am done wasting more time.
    It's better to be done with it honestly, because you were literally presented with a situation where you quoted someone and argued about something they weren't even talking about, and instead of just backing down and going "Oh okay, you were talking about the ilvl, not the artifact level", you dug down on trying to insist it's a "catch up mechanic" when it wasn't, because you still had to accomplish it on one toon.

    A catch up mechanic is something like Artifact knowledge where it applies to everyone. It's not a "You did this on one toon, you get it on all now". That's like calling Pathfinder a catch up mechanic.

    And again, you're still wrong because you can't skip the scenarios that don't offer any gear (the Halls of Origination ones), they serve just as glorified tutorials which is unneeded.

    You can quote Ion all you want, they already showed that with Shadowlands they're toning back on that by allowing you to instantly have access to a Covenant as soon as your alts step into the expansion, which is the complete opposite to what is being claims there, because they're still core player power things.


    But the more you have to stoop to mocking and berating it just shows that you're more and more losing the point you're trying to make anyway. The only one here who was misreading is you, as shown by your attempt to talk about artifact knowledge and heart of azeroth levels when I specifically referred to the +45 ilvls you got from the Champions of Azeroth rep.

  6. #186
    Honestly, no it didn't.

    I just went through it with my first alt, and you can skip all the scenarios that take ages. It's quite quick.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    In my opinion, none of the stuff you mentioned should exist. It’s just a grind and barrier to entry for the good stuff.

    But to take a less extreme position: that content does have some minimal value the first time you do it, so fine, mains grind all day!

    But on alts whatever novelty existed the first time through is gone. Perhaps more importantly, the moment you start on an alt, you realize exactly how much shit you are about to wade through because you’ve already done it all. The last time I leveled an alt in Legion, I powered my way to 110, then I sat there, thought about the ap/legendary/class hall grind ahead of me, said, “ fuck that” and never played the char again.
    I do understand you and others with that opinion, I have no problem seeing the issues. For 8.3, they seem very slack on the grind, comparably speaking. Though 8.2 was rough for many because of essence system upon a broken system so we had to like reset in a way, midway in an expansion, but still go all out to power up our characters with the new stuff. If we had Essences from day 1 and no Azerite Armor the grind and the tedious farm it is for many players to get power now, aka essences would be better received because it would calm down after a while. The grind in Legion was very frontal, it was there from the start and of course I can see why it could discourage people to play alts. Not to mention stuff like off-specs, which I think should have been done better in Legion.

    For me personally though, I think it's fine to have to do some stuff on the alts that is very rewarding, while being very boring to do again. Some is ok, but I also get sick of doing boring stuff a lot. So I do get the other side of it, and when it comes to 8.3 it seems to me that they have done some slack, but I am afraid that could have been too much. Because now I am on my main, finding it hard to do stuff after the daily shit in the "new" zones. Though that will change next reset luckily with the new season
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

    Best Mage ever lived!

  8. #188
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    I can't wait til Blizzard releases TBC Classic and people re-live the attunement chains. :3
    As for this patch, the first day was brutal. Took me many hours, but that's mostly because I watched every cut scene and did every single daily. Now when I go through on alts I skip all cutscenes and the big dungeon scenarios and all dailies except assaults. Does anyone remember Nazjatar/Mecha day one without flying?
    Mecha was fun for me on day 1, I got lucky with the jetpack schematic!

    Now day 1 Nazjatar, that's a different animal >.<

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    But the more you have to stoop to mocking and berating it just shows that you're more and more losing the point you're trying to make anyway. The only one here who was misreading is you, as shown by your attempt to talk about artifact knowledge and heart of azeroth levels when I specifically referred to the +45 ilvls you got from the Champions of Azeroth rep.
    When people are trying to be so clever like you tried to and then proceeds to put words in my mouth and accuse me for strawman when that person does it himself three times over I tend to react. Sorry if you feel offended, but there was no better man in our discussion.
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

    Best Mage ever lived!

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    When people are trying to be so clever like you tried to and then proceeds to put words in my mouth and accuse me for strawman when that person does it himself three times over I tend to react. Sorry if you feel offended, but there was no better man in our discussion.
    I thought you said you were done?
    At no point did I try to act clever, this all started because I simply pointed out half of the scenarios aren't skippable, to which it was argued to death was is considered "half".

    The scenarios don't let you skip story, as shown.
    You tried to argue that I said I wanted things done "easy" or "instantly", neither of which I said which I called a strawman. Which again, you have still not been able to show that I said I want things "easy" or "instant". You confuse discussions with desire. Discussing something does not mean I want it. Don't mistake the two. And that is why I said it was a strawman, because you started to argue with me about wanting it "easy" or "instant", neither of which I claimed.

    And again, I did not put words in your mouth, I quoted you to ensure that you would see where I am coming from. Putting words in your mouth would be more along the lines of making things up, like, for example, saying you want something to be "easy" or "instant". /shrug

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I thought you said you were done?
    With the discussion yes. This was about behavior. But you can't stop it seems.
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

    Best Mage ever lived!

  12. #192
    I have done with my main and two alts. I'm telling you this for ALTS, not def worth it and it's pretty stressful and tedious only if they could gone "I have done this before" Dialogue. That would be great but i'm doubting it will happen.
    Last edited by trapmaster; 2020-01-18 at 07:21 AM.

  13. #193
    I'd say 8.2 content is killing alts mroe than 8.3 is.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by alosiboy View Post
    This won't be as big of a problem, considering they're timegating the max rank of the cloak. That way if you do 2-3 visions every week you'll already catch up next week.
    But in order to do that you have to farm 10.000k of Coalescent Visions (7k from lesser visions + 3k from olther sourcers) for just ONE run. If you fail is gone. Also you need Mementos...

    This week we got 3 Items to enter in the Vision quite for free...

    The dailys by now are mostly bugged, take long time due to low drop rate and low mobs respwan time. Considering the fact that the zone are not new, like Nazjatar and Meccagon was, this is a very lazy design for the last patch of this expantion.

    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Why play an alt if you don't want to play the same content on a different character? That's kinda what alts are, a "new game". WoW isn't a game with 36 specs for your character, it's a game where you choose your class.
    Because after 15 years you wanna play different classes... and if you are a collectors, you need at last one char per Factions: mount, pets, achievements, trasmog.

    Also WoW is designed having the Alts in mind: Legion, Allied Races, Shadowland and the 4 Covenants...

    So, if Blizzard consider the Alts as a part of the game and they wanna you invest your time in them (more you play, more you pay)... they have to think a better game design around them.
    Argus in 2018 My prediction failed in part... But I'm still a Spacegoat

  15. #195
    I'm sure this has been said already on this thread a bunch of times, but essences not being account wide killed alts. I would gladly do this quest chain if I had all of my essences. But ya know, Blizzard hates common sense and logic when it comes to our sanity.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by pkusa View Post
    I'm sure this has been said already on this thread a bunch of times, but essences not being account wide killed alts. I would gladly do this quest chain if I had all of my essences. But ya know, Blizzard hates common sense and logic when it comes to our sanity.
    I miss the days when gear was the only thing required.

  17. #197
    You guys can not care about people who want skips for their alts if you want, but when you think to yourself "why aren't there any tanks or heals" I want you to remember your stance on alt skips. Some people are going to flat out not play their alts because of the length of the quest chain and you can "that's on them" if you want and you'd be right but it will also affect others as well
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by alosiboy View Post
    This won't be as big of a problem, considering they're timegating the max rank of the cloak. That way if you do 2-3 visions every week you'll already catch up next week.
    Until you get to the high ranks where you need more than 1 week's worth of keys, and once cloak rank maxes out at 15 there's no catchup at all for the upgrades from N'zoth.
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    As you said, it might take an hour. A normally functional adult can not spend 5 hours a day just on alts in wow, for example, and 5 alts in a pretty average now a days I ´d say.
    No it's not average at all. I'd litterly say that spending 45 - 60 minuts on new content a day is pretty god damn good. Any less would be pathetic. U having been able to maintain 5 alts untill now, would not hurt u in 8.3 at all. you'd have the time to maintain them. If not. thank freaking god. If these daillies took about 10 minuts, that would be a big fat flop. You want alts? You work for it. It's realy that simple. If you can't, just don't. A game, should be a game at the end of the day. If you want free stuff with minimal effort. go play candy crush or something. Blizzard is already letting alts skip alot of the legendary quest line. And if you only do the lesser visions and greater assualt on your alt. you'll be able to do 2 visions a week. and that pretty much all your need, you won't even be able to progress your legendary cloak beyond 1 1 rank per week from next week onwards.

  20. #200
    Dreadlord Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I suppose with the world first race, we will see how people actually do have alts to test mechanics.

    Now...sure, those are maniacs...but on the other hand: If every one else has this problem with catching up alts...then certain you can raid with a group of catch up altoholics.

    Unless ofc your goal is to bring your alts into the latest content so they can be as geared as your main.

    Which opens up the debate of what is a main, what is an alt. Maybe I am more in the "I don't care" camp, because ever since Classic and in TBC I just could never bring an alt (gear / attunements). WotLK actually was the greatest time. my main raided progressively and my alts were in 10 man normal groups or did Naxx. At no point did I expect my alts to ever be able to enter the progression raid.

    Sure, there were times when we lost important members and somebody geared an alt to take the role - but then the raid helped (and if sometimes means losing painful weeks of progression)

    So...I guess most of all I am curious what exactly y'all are doing on your alts and expecting them to be able to do?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Seeing that you joined in 2012, you must be aware that the very same thing was regularely said about Ghostcrawler. Seeing I joined here in 2008 (and was a lurker before), I can tell you the same thing was said about the lead devs before Ion and GC.

    "Blizzard - killing the game since 2005 thanks to their "lack of vision and horrible game design" - sincerely your forum posters ^^
    It's more true now than it was then to be honest. Ghostcrawler i thought did a good job but it was Activision's interference that screwed it all up. Ion just isn't a game developer. He's a lawyer posing as one.

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