Wrong Game Philosophy - Still OP classes...

[bagdawoolin]

Clearly you have no idea what you are even referring about.

Yeah? Bring arguments against my statement.

[Echocho]

So you want homogenization? No thx, it's too much already.

[Tiwack]

The rollercoaster-ride is part of the experience for those who stick around and settle with whatever fantasy it is they like to play or whatever the new fotm is.

[iosdeveloper]

Hunters don't deserve to be happy

[AwkwardSquirtle]

It's hilarious that of all the classes they could nerf into oblivion Blizzard chose shadow priests, because they were doing well in two raid encounters.

It looks like they'd be pretty broken on the last couple of bosses too. Aff Locks were similarly nerfed because there's just so many tentacles to DoT.

[bakibuki]

Yeah? Bring arguments against my statement.

Yes, you are a new user, cos you are a TROLL. BANNED and what not. Any answer to ANY question you have is written on the previous pages. Read all and sit down kid.

[arkanon]

2. If you enjoy the game like this, don't bother commenting, go play.

Ladies and gentleman, i give you a literal request for an echo chamber. You are not interested in a discussion, you just want everyone to agree with you. There are players out there much better than you who disagree, what would you say to them?

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Fights are different which is why you'll never achieve "balance". Some classes are good at some things, less good at others. What the op really wants to see is a game where it doesn't matter what you play as they all play mostly the same because they are "balanced." So homogenize the shit out of the game and rob it of any interest whatsoever. OP is noticeably absent on ideas on exactly how to balance all specs and classes for every fight.

Bingo. The only way to achieve what is requested here is to literally give every single class in the game an identical toolkit. Because the gap between the best and worst dps is relative, so if its 50%, ppl will cry. if its 5%, ppl will cry.

[Trend]

Ladies and gentleman, i give you a literal request for an echo chamber. You are not interested in a discussion, you just want everyone to agree with you. There are players out there much better than you who disagree, what would you say to them?

I don't totally disagree with the overarching point that there are some specs that over-perform (or under-perform) over too many content types to too great a degree and that seems fixable, but yeah, this clearly isn't a person with whom to have a rational conversation. Too much of what he says is stupid and/or rude and he clearly doesn't want to have a conversation anyway, as you have pointed out.

[arkanon]

I don't totally disagree with the overarching point that there are some specs that over-perform (or under-perform) over too many content types to too great a degree and that seems fixable, but yeah, this clearly isn't a person with whom to have a rational conversation. Too much of what he says is stupid and/or rude and he clearly doesn't want to have a conversation anyway, as you have pointed out.

Agreed. But there is an interesting perspective that is not mentioned too much here that is the ENJOYMENT of the classes is also an extremely important factor for a huge chunk of the player base - i would go out on a limb and suggest the majority of the player base. There is a perspective that is lost when we are all mythic raiding and high end pvping - we are the absolute minority here - a tiny, tiny percentage of the playerbase - and i would even suggest there are more people who dont have a dmg meter installed than do.

I have stated numerous times that trying to have every spec be competitive in every form of content is what has killed the enjoyment of classes for me personally. This was driven by the community, but ultimately the buck stops with Blizzard. Sometimes people look to MOBAS as proof that multiple specs can be balanced, but, that is for ONE content type - and the classes are not balanced with everyone else, they all specialize in one aspect of game play, and are balanced against other 'specs' that are designed with a similar philosophy.

So for some players, a 5% difference in dps is totally unacceptable. To some, a 25% difference is fine, so long as they enjoy their class and content gets cleared.

[jzhbee]

kek

[kaminaris]

The only thing that blizz needs right now is someone (one person should be enough) capable of performing math equations, understanding statistics and we would be good. Not everything needs to be balanced perfectly but hot damn, some NUMERICAL balance sucks.

And lets say 1-2 week balancing SMALL hotfixes, to buff what is rock bottom by up to 3% and nerf what is insanely OP. Eventually after a couple of weeks we would have some steady balance.

[ImpalerEU]

(lets clarify that im a 2.2k iO & MultiClass Multi Glad player - since Cata - so yes, I have an idea of what im talking about).

And once 8.3 did hit, I came back on retail and tried it... it was the worst feeling ever. The Major contents in game today are M+, Arena / pvp, Raids. I find absurd how still the game is not balanced and ALL classes are not sort of equal... equal in terms of not being ridiculous once you are Qing for a M+ without being a TOP class who does by defoult x2 more DPS than you and its not 2 times more useful... I had this feeling once I logged again my hunter and realised it was HORRIBLE on M+, this made me think that first of all I won't bother playing retail again, and secondly that for sure I won't make a new class just because mine sucks for the content I want to play.

I'm writing this hoping that someone from blizzard will bother reading this, and understanding the real frustration that its really leading me and probably a huge % of players to don't bother with wow, just waiting for a patch where your class its not totally a joke compared to the TOP ones for the type of content you like the most. Keep in mind, I wouldn't mind to even reroll, IF making a top geared character to compete, wouldn't force me to lose my entire life.

So the real solutions would be:
1. Put a real focus on making SURE ALL classes of every talent are EQUAL for specific contents. PVP and PVE % are separated, so it would be extremely easy to balance. You don't need a genius to understand how M+ for example its FULL of Rogues & DH on the top ladder. Use your brain and you will understand this is just a total depression for all other classes / players.

2. Stop thinking people are willing to reroll and reroll until the class won't be good anymore. Simply by making all classes equal, you will obtain players who are x10 times more willing to put effort and enjoy the game.

For the people who will say that this post its not sensed because obviously there are always people on this forum who love to simply point fingers and still provide 0 concrete solutions other than flaming others, I want to remember them, that talking here, there is a guy who cares about this game being decent enough to get people like me keep playing it. We all invested an incredible amount of time in WoW and I would like it to AT LEAST be balanced and stop with this no sense that destroy all my willingness to keep giving wow a try.

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EDIT: CLARIFICATIONS
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after reading some answers I've got, lets clarify:

1. Obviously I don't mean that hunter does 50% DPS compared to other classes... lets be more precise --> 30% ISH overall, that is one of the key elements why hunter like MANY OTHER CLASSES can't enjoy the game.

2. If you enjoy the game like this, don't bother commenting, go play. Im talking for the people that obviously don't feel in the same way as you do. I'm happy for you, if you like the game to be unbalanced and not being able to compete at high levels just doing the "best as you can" with your class.

3. IO score, gives an idea of what lvl you did compete in the game on the M+ content. Its better than nothing. Generally talking, its very efficient. All the people that say that it is useless, are just players who don't know what they are talking about, or who are mad because they can't get it high enough for the M+ lvl they want to join. Don't complain the score, argue about the people that don't understand that a guy with 2k iO CAN prove to be worth more. It has nothing to do with the score itself, it has to do with the mentality of the PLAYERS who think that a 2k player is worst than a guy with 2100.

4. Seems most of the people didn't get the point of my post, but its normal, as I said I expected it I'm one of the players that points out the fact, it's very unfair to set for a specific content like M+ some classes FAR above everyone else. It makes TONS of people to lose all the motivation to keep playing. It affects the majority of the players when they try to do QUE and ENJOY the game. On top of that, WHY progressing when your class will be considered too crap to compete at high lvl content? My points are VERY solid and easy to understand, if you don't, no wonders why this game is at this stage. We are not playing LOL where you must play another 20-50h to master another champion... we are talking about a game where you MUST invest HUNDREDS of hours to GEAR and lvl up. Thats why the balance on such a game its vital. In LOL I can simply change champ and deal with it (they must balance 120+ heroes...)

People that cried for classes to be equal are the reason retail went down the drain.

[Carl Jensen]

People that cried for classes to be equal are the reason retail went down the drain.

Classes are EVERYTHING except balanced and equal which by the way seems to be the reason of the post... so according to your quote, retail should by defoult be a perfect game....

[Nurvus]

I don't want to be one of those guys pointing fingers but I feel like making every spec equal is easier said than done.

That statement would make sense if the scaling flaws weren't so inconsistent across specs and racials.

Look at Survival Hunters - Wildfire Bomb doesn't interact with Mastery in any way - not even indirectly through Talents or Traits.

The fact that Wildfire Bomb base damage as well as Wildfire Infusion and Guerrila Tactics are overtuned helps hide this problem while simultaneously making Mastery our worst stat.

However, comparing to other specs with abilities that scale off 3 or all 4 secondaries, Wildfire Bomb will fall behind.
And even if you don't focus on Mastery, as your gear improves your Mastery-scaling abilities like Mongoose Bite and Butchery will improve considerably faster than Wildfire Bomb.

[Gaidax]

So the real solutions would be:
1. Put a real focus on making SURE ALL classes of every talent are EQUAL for specific contents. PVP and PVE % are separated, so it would be extremely easy to balance. You don't need a genius to understand how M+ for example its FULL of Rogues & DH on the top ladder. Use your brain and you will understand this is just a total depression for all other classes / players.

2. Stop thinking people are willing to reroll and reroll until the class won't be good anymore. Simply by making all classes equal, you will obtain players who are x10 times more willing to put effort and enjoy the game.

kekw...

Yo Blizzard, come on, just make them specs all equal it's so easy! What were you doing all these years???

All praise, the solution is here!

[Marrilaife]

You are right, but there's gonna be endless tears from people who "hate homogenization" if classes actually had any parity. Just look at warlock: OP in mythic raiding, OP in rated pvp, trash tier in m+. Balanced? Nope. But make it more toned down in OP areas and buff their aoe and you'll hear screeches how "warlock is now mage with different colours of spells".

I hate the state of the game too. It's alt unfriendly but on the other hand you wanna heal competitive m+? Need a resto druid. Wanna also raid at cutting edge levels? Sorry, druids not allowed, only palas, disc priests and maybe shamans.

And then you have specs like enhancement that are unwanted in any pve, no idea if they fare any better in pvp at least.

[Seranthor]

I'm writing this hoping that someone from blizzard will bother reading this,

Have you considered actually posting this on the official forums... just sayin'

[ImpalerEU]

Classes are EVERYTHING except balanced and equal which by the way seems to be the reason of the post... so according to your quote, retail should by defoult be a perfect game....

All classes have crowd control, all classes have interrupts, all classes have self healing, all classes have reliable defensives, all classes have damage overtime effects, all classes have AoE effects, all melee classes have gap closers...etc. Not equal enough for you?.

As far as balanced is concerned, classes will never be balanced and are not meant to be either. That has been an ongoing argument since I started playing in January 2007. All classes are pretty much the same/equal nowadays, that wasn't the case back when the game was actually fun and back when communities meant something.

[Beefkow]

Numbers wise, it will never be balanced.

But utility on the other hand, demon hunter, prot warriors, rogues, and druids have it all. Other classes are viable ofc.

[Kralljin]

I hate the state of the game too. It's alt unfriendly but on the other hand you wanna heal competitive m+? Need a resto druid. Wanna also raid at cutting edge levels? Sorry, druids not allowed, only palas, disc priests and maybe shamans.

At this point, WoW is old enough that different developers repeat the same mistakes of their predecessors.

I read an interview with Rob Pardo from 09 regarding WoW recently, one of the key things he said in there:
Arena was a mistake, the concept of a competitive E-Sport mode was completely underestimated by the team in terms of balance and that it's big trouble for the class team because they have to change classes for the sake of that mode.

We're now at a point where a lot of PvP balance has become entirely separated from PvE, while Blizzard cannot simply remove certain abilities from PvP, they can reduce damage / healing / manareg / etc. entirely independant from PvE.

So while they did manage to seperate raiding from PvP, they introduced M+ and decided that this is their new E-Sport thing, now Resto Druid got the middle finger in terms of raiding because M+ in 8.3.
We're just repeating history here.

The unpopular opinion is simply that Blizzard needs to take the bullet and separate M+ from raiding (which would be a total shitshow) in terms of class balance or needs to pick a lane where they want to design and balance their game around, while relegating the other modes to side activities.
The attempt to please everybody just makes the game worse for everybody.

In PvP, Blizzard also straight up said: The Game is balanced around 3v3, while the remaining PvP activities (Casual,2v2, RBG) aren't as relevant.
I'm not saying that 3v3 is super fun, but that's perhaps because that sort of game mode isn't such a huge fit for a PvP Mode in an RPG such as WoW, unless you design your entire game around it.