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  1. #61
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    She is Horde but was honored by Varian, as well as Anduin. Seemingly respected by Shaw as well, and thus permitted to venture to Stormwind too.
    She's a Blood Elf; not Horde. Hell, the Horde didn't even interact with her until Legion, unlike the Alliance which have interacted with her since Wotlk.

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  2. #62
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    We could say the same for most Alliance that was there.

    And dare I remind you that in the early day of Wow, it was Alliance that was more or less considered the "aggressor" while The Horde was seen as the scapegoat trying to survive. All this shifted at Wotlk.
    It's quite funny that Horde was depicted as the aggressor in WotLK, since it was Varian who declared war on the Horde. Which btw had little to nothing to do with Putress' shenanigans.
    "This world is a prison!"

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    Also what make her look more in place with the Horde, is the whole color of her clothes, red + green are not really Alliance colors
    she doesnt like the alliance more, she was a friend of varian and is loyal to andiun only now, if anduin ever was to leave the alliance she would follow

  4. #64
    Old God Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    she doesnt like the alliance more, she was a friend of varian and is loyal to andiun only now, if anduin ever was to leave the alliance she would follow
    She specified that she's loyal to the Wrynn family, so the royalty, is true that she doesn't care that much about the faction per se, but as a direct follower of the king of a faction, is silly to say that she's not part of that faction

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    She was Anduins dad's arena buddy, so she's just looking out for Varian's kid now.

    Not every character has to be so ignorantly faction bent they are incapable of forming alliances across the lines, something I get the impression some here have never understood
    What alliances did Valeera form across the lines? She worked with the Horde when Anduin commanded her to. Because she's sworn to House Wrynn.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Valeera for next speaker of Azeroth. Kinda tired of that dwarf now.

    And man, she looks so good.
    Why would we even need a speaker of Azeroth after BfA?


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And I explained how Sylvanas commited various heinous crimes way before that.
    And Jaina's forces reignited the faction war at the start of the Cataclysm by invading the Barrens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    You don’t get more true blue then serving the leader of the alliance as a personal spy she’s alliance all the way until anduin dies which isn’t gonna happen.
    And she's not only serving as Anduin's, she outright swore fealty to House Wrynn.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    Either they never understood it or they intentionally wish the game was as ignorantly faction bent to keep up their mindset of "red is dead!" "[other faction] droolz, [my faction] roolz!"
    Except Valeera has nothing to do with anything you said. Contrary to Trassk's claims she has no actual connections in the Horde and on top of that is a sworn servant of the ruling dynasty of the Alliance. She's as Alliance as it can get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    You're making far too much sense right now
    Except Valeera by her own admission has no ties to the Horde. While she did swear fealty to Varian and his house in the comics, making her have ties to the Alliance. Valeera isn't the example you guys think she is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Valeera is just what every player character wishes they were; able to play in both factions but subservient to neither.
    She most certainly is subservient to the Alliance. Kinda hard not to be when you're a sworn servant of the Wrynns.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Garrosh also ordered Sylvanas not to harm civilians and look at the chain of command in Emberstone Mine, and there's even this quest where you use one of her Val'kyr to massacre fleeing civilians from Hillsbrad and Southshore
    Garrosh ordered no such thing because at no point in his life did he give a damn about human civilians.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Also, she may have had Warden Stillwater killed, but the fact that he's alive again in Legion and BFA shows that the questline is non-canon. Unless it's an oversight perhaps?
    The Legion pre-event simply reused the NPCs that were already there. It's an example of Blizzard not caring to check the story of a zone where they are adding some new stuff. Besides, I doubt there was a solid involvement from the story department in that part of the pre-event. All the story bits of the invasions were just the random text characters yelled out every now and then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    The fall of Quel'thalas is 90% Sylvanas' fault. She had all the opportunities to assassinate Arthas but she refused because she wanted the glory and honor of being the hero who took down Arthas in a glorious battle, and so she sent in her Farstriders to their deaths.
    At no point did Sylvanas care about any of the things you talked about here. There was no opportunity to assassinate Arthas as he had a swarm of undead around him at all times and the Farstriders barely slowed the Scourge down.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Also, the Blood Elves aren't technically her own people. Also, the ones who did most of the dirty work were the High Elves, their own people; though Jaina can die, for all I care.
    Just because Kael changed their name doesn't magically make them not their people. Lor'themar was her second in command.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    He also ordered NOT to use the Blight. We all know how that ended.
    We also know he did that just to the Forsaken would bleed to death in the campaign.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Uh... the Purge happened AFTER Theramore... and is heavily influenced by Theramore AND it happened after the Bell was stolen. So much about Jaina being the prequel to anything Garrosh did.
    And as I said, Sylvanas was bad news years before she became Warchief, basically the moment she got her freedom back, she started scheming her revenge and murdered dozens of people without a shred of remorse. Jaina on the other hand was haunted for years when she allowed her father to die.
    @mickybrighteyes did not say the Purge happened before Theramore. Re-read their post. Also, it's almost as if Sylvanas also had an origin story and that it also included a fall of her nation in a violent way. You pointing those things out only in regards to Jaina isn't an argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Sure Saurfang planned it, because Sylvanas always makes sure to have a scapegoat to blame. Why did you think she wanted him to kill Malfurion? Because she suddenly cares about his honor? Come on.
    And Saurfang planned a war, he won the war. Sylvanas decided to go genocidal AFTER she won. No one knew this was gonna happen, least of all Saurfang. He even helps evacuating civilians during the pre-patch.
    She didn't win. Saurfang fucked up the prerequisites for the victory that he well knew about as he himself drafted the plans for the campaign. Which he himself admitted and vowed to deal with himself when Nathanos pointed it out to him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Well, the canon Arthas book shows how she observes the Apothecaries testing the blight on an innocent farm girl and one of her own Forsaken. She appreciates the effects (i.e. the girl bleeding to death from all orificies) quite a bit.
    That canon Arthas book says absolutely nothing about that girl being innocent or even a farmer. For all you know she could have been a Scarlet Crusade zealot because, you know, that was the main human population the Forsaken had access too. Or even the Queen of England for that matter. Just because you invoke the canon status of the book doesn't mean you can then make whatever you want up. It means the opposite for that matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Bolded for emphasis. There is a big difference between attempted mass murder and commited mass murder. The difference between Jaina and Sylvanas in other words. Also you surely realize that Jaina stopped because she saw reason and snapped out of her near insane state, it was not that Thrall could have stopped her if she had been hell-bent on wiping out the city. She stopped because she wanted to stop, because she - different from Sylvanas - did not actually want to kill people, but she wasn't thinking clearly.
    Yeah, that difference is people stopping Jaina. Not that there was any committed mass murder by Sylvanas in the time frame @mickybrighteyes was actually talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by therealbowser View Post
    Geez, the moral gymnastics in this post is impressive.

    Please don't feel the need to respond to this, as your arguments are flawed to the core and there is no point in me going in detail why this is wrong. I am just genuinely impressed that there is anyone this obsessively dedicated to Sylvanas still.

    Accept that she's a monster that is in no way innocent and doesn't apologize for her actions. That's why people like her, not because she's a 'victim' or whatever you have in your mind that she is. Assuming these kinds of things ruins the only thing people actually like (liked?) about her character.

    There is no morally grey here, lol.
    The highground you put yourself on here with your remarks how @mickybrighteyes shouldn't even reply to you because of how deeply flawed their argument is would be more warranted if you, you known, didn't straw-man the hell out of them. They said nothing whatsoever about Sylvanas being a victim or not being a monster. For Christ's sake, before you wrote this post they already clarified that their position as a whole is not even pro-Sylvanas but anti-Jaina, making your claims here not only wrong but utterly irrelevant to what they were actually talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Why would we even need a speaker of Azeroth after BfA?
    It's more my appreciation of Valeera than anything else. You tired of that dwarf? ^^
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It's more my appreciation of Valeera than anything else. You tired of that dwarf? ^^
    I am. But that's all the more reason not to replace him with someone who'll quickly become as annoying if they started spouting the same "but what about muh Azeroth" nonsense all the time (which they would if they became the speaker of Azeroth and got the quick dial to its world soul that comes with the position).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I am. But that's all the more reason not to replace him with someone who'll quickly become as annoying if they started spouting the same "but what about muh Azeroth" nonsense all the time (which they would if they became the speaker of Azeroth and got the quick dial to its world soul that comes with the position).
    Very true, and it is indeed enough with 1 expansion + 7.3 and a pre patch of that stuff.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

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  9. #69
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    so why is valeera in horde embassy in 8.3 cutscene? She helping both factions?
    She's unaffiliated enough that both factions trust her as a courier.

    Edit for clarity: Not to say she's unaffiliated entirely. She's more like the player in that the Horde knows she's trustworthy enough to deal with when needed (such as to deliver a message to the Alliance) and can trust she won't lie about it or assassinate them when they meet with her. She is, at MOST, separated from the Alliance by one degree (she serves the Wrynns and thus the Alliance).
    Last edited by Thage; 2020-01-19 at 06:50 PM.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    naw. Post Saurfang death kumbaya.. the horde lost a lot of it's edge... like all of it really. Most the people that might kill humans on sight got locked up in chains or stood down.


    anduin isn't the problem in that regard. It's the company he keeps. Shaw and SI:7. Genn has a history of not really following orders. Jaina has had a bloodthirst streak that put Sylvanas to shame (until Teldrassil at least). Alleria has been poking at bullshit trying to poach hordies over to the alliance. And now Tyrande is out there making a bid to become the new bitchqueen.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Think it would have been obvious back at the battle for the undercity following the Wrath Gate incident.
    Good thing Genn didn't follow Anduin's orders in Legion then otherwise your precious Sylvanas would have been allowed to do whatever she wanted with the Valkyr. Genn is still a good guy, unlike most of the Horde lmao.

  11. #71
    I saw Valeera standing there and I have an opinion regarding the OP. When I saw her...




    ...err what were we talking about again?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The highground you put yourself on here with your remarks how @mickybrighteyes shouldn't even reply to you because of how deeply flawed their argument is would be more warranted if you, you known, didn't straw-man the hell out of them. They said nothing whatsoever about Sylvanas being a victim or not being a monster. For Christ's sake, before you wrote this post they already clarified that their position as a whole is not even pro-Sylvanas but anti-Jaina, making your claims here not only wrong but utterly irrelevant to what they were actually talking about.
    Did you just respond to the entire board in this post? Frankly I didn't read that much into their post, but I read enough. "Jaina is worse than Sylvanas" and then a post to defend that claim when they are utterly rebuked well past a defensible position... they can claim whatever they want, but only a fanatic would keep arguing at that point.

    PS: I don't have any interest in "arguing" with fanatics. And I remember what it was like the last time we had a discussion. So this is a hard pass from me.

  13. #73
    Why would we even need a speaker of Azeroth after BfA?
    Asking for anyone who's paying attention to the train wreck of 8.3, do we end up pulling the sword out/healing the planet? Or just Dragon Ball beaming N'Zoth to powder and ignoring the hell out of the sword?

    I would think we'd need a speaker depending on the answer, as well as for the writers to continue to give Azeroth's opinions on the fleas living on her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  14. #74
    Legendary! Darkeon's Avatar
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    I think it represents perfectly how the storytelling exists in relation to both playable factions.

  15. #75
    I think what we all really want to know, is where has Med'an been this whole time?

  16. #76
    Herald of the Titans Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Valeera for next speaker of Azeroth. Kinda tired of that dwarf now.

    And man, she looks so good.
    Nah, The first & only lady of SW.

    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I hope you are joking right now.. because everyone and their moms know she is with the Alliance(You missed the part when she walked with anduin through the portal in OG? where also all horde was), also she has glowing green eyes and super unique full on sexy red suit. and unique hairstyle. Blending in won't help or work at all.

    Unless she stealths out which isnt the best option, because interacting with people or items will break it.
    Everyone knows it NOW, because after the peace there is no real reason to hide it, or so they think probably, I personally would very much like someone that keeps on eye on the Horde to warn us of their next genocidal warchief.

    Though you have to realize, just because she has a new model in game does not mean she looks different for the people of Azeroth. She still looks to other Blood Elves like a Blood Elf (glowing green eyes pretty much a trait they all had before the Sunwell got fixed, thanks to the Fel), very much like Jaina still looks like a normal human woman to the people in Stormwind, despite her model being years ahead of the normal human model.
    Valeera does wear some rather extravagant cloth, but in the Blood Elf society that is not soo special. Compare it to what the Nightborn regularly wear and it feels downright modest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And Jaina's forces reignited the faction war at the start of the Cataclysm by invading the Barrens.
    As has been stated many times already. The faction war restarted the moment Garrosh decided that Kalimdor is pure Horde territory. Jaina reacted to the massive threat he presented. Everyone knew that after he was done with the Night Elves he would turn to Theramore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    We also know he did that just to the Forsaken would bleed to death in the campaign.
    And I quote from the Horde's Blood Oath which has been used by you and others many times over to call Saurfang and Baine traitors:
    "I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command."

    Strangely it does not anywhere state that "I do only what my Warchief says if I like it." So if Garrosh decided to waste the Forsaken on this, that is his right and disobeying and secretly scheming to subvert his will is the act of a traitor. Strangely though Sylvanas is not getting remotely as much flak for this as Baine did.

    Besides, Garrosh uses them because they are already dead, do not feel pain and are very hard to kill (outside of game mechanics), plus their pure appearance as rotting corpses can help break the spirit of the Gilneans, especially after the whole Lich King time. It's a very sound choice.
    In a siege if you managed to breach the wall you will have to charge it at some point, if starving out the besieged is not an option your boss wants to take, you have to get past the walls somehow. This always costs a lot of lifes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    She didn't win. Saurfang fucked up the prerequisites for the victory that he well knew about as he himself drafted the plans for the campaign. Which he himself admitted and vowed to deal with himself when Nathanos pointed it out to him.
    Oh she won the war quite handily. The Nelfs were beaten, Darkshore hers, the tree and Darnassus being in her hand. She had won a nice piece of lush territory for the Horde (only to blight and destroy it later, but hey) and effectively removed the Alliance from Kalimdor.
    That is already more then Garrosh ever managed. In a next step she could have taken the people in the tree hostage and traded them favourably to the Alliance for other consessions. We both know Anduin does not have it in him to let her execute these innocents, so he would have caved on any demand. That was what a smart winner would have done.

    That her psychopathic obsession with killing hope did not allow her to call this a victory without murdering a big part of the Nightelf population, is just that, an obsession born from her need to drag everyone to her own level of hopelessness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yeah, that difference is people stopping Jaina. Not that there was any committed mass murder by Sylvanas in the time frame @mickybrighteyes was actually talking about.
    No, the difference is that Jaina allowed herself to be stopped, when no one had the power to stop her by force alone. If someone is completely unwaveringly convinced of doing something horrible, you can just as well talk to a wall, you won't stop them with words, but Jaina was not, deep down she knew she was wrong and Thrall and Kalec allowed her the moment of clarity to realize this.
    As Kalec tells her, it is the same thing that happened with Arthas in front of Stratholme. He was unwaveringly convinced to purge the city and neither Uther nor Jaina's words could reach him, because of that. Jaina in the same situation chose not to go down that path.

    This is the big difference between Jaina and Sylvanas:

    Jaina actually cares about the lives of people (even her enemies), she doesn't want to kill anyone, she does not kill for the fun of it, but only when she is forced to and many times over the Horde has done exactly that.

    Sylvanas on the other hand cares for nothing and no one except herself and murders without a shred of remorse, she believes her own fate gives her the right to be this way, because she is cursed and all that. Booo Hoooo.

    Both have been through tragedies, but one chose to not be dragged down by it, while the other wallows in it and makes every effort to drag down everyone else.

  18. #78
    Legendary! sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I hope you are joking right now.. because everyone and their moms know she is with the Alliance(You missed the part when she walked with anduin through the portal in OG? where also all horde was), also she has glowing green eyes and super unique full on sexy red suit. and unique hairstyle. Blending in won't help or work at all.

    Unless she stealths out which isnt the best option, because interacting with people or items will break it.
    her 'unique' aspects are all stuff she can easily change, she can wear a rug and comb her hair different, done, she looks like average belf
    and no i'm not joking, i even used in-game reference for that, each race can't distinguish (easily at least) between ppl from other races
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    She was Anduins dad's arena buddy, so she's just looking out for Varian's kid now.

    Not every character has to be so ignorantly faction bent they are incapable of forming alliances across the lines, something I get the impression some here have never understood
    Exactly. That's why Dalaran doesn't need to be Alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Valeera's Alliance. Just because she dresses in red and happens to be a blood elf doesn't make the personal spy of the human king who only has relationships on one side of the faction divide any less Alliance, no more than Renzik is Horde just because he's a goblin. She can serve as a better mouthpiece of the Wrynns in the Horde because of the outfit and race, but that doesn't make her neutral, only makes her better at being that kind of agent.
    Also, Horde has human pirates on their side.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post

    Also, Horde has human pirates on their side.
    Yup, and they're also Horde proxies, despite being humans. The way Valeera is an Alliance proxy.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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